Morningstar Tristar-45

Surfpath
Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
I am helping a neighbor who has a dual wind-PV system. They have a couple of KW's of panels plus what appears to be a medium amount of wind power going to a smaller, separate dedicated controller (a Tristar-PWM-TS-45) then directly on to a 48v battery bank. The input from the 48v wind generator is said to be 'about 100-150 watts'. Their coastal wind is pretty consistent. Their system was set up by an installer and they remain relative novices (disclaimer: I am not much better).

I noticed a few things regarding the TS-45 that I was hoping to have double checked:
  • There is no digital readout on the controller, so it's hard to see at a glance what's going on (just a couple of led's). Would you advise them that a digital read out (about $100-$110) is necessary?
  • There is no remote temperature sensor from the controller to the bank (note: their temps vary only slightly, perhaps by 3 degrees on average (23c-27c). The historic lows and highs are probably 20c and 29c respectively. Their bank is located relatively close to the other RE equipment in a dedicated room under their house.
  • I'm personally interested on how this wind input affects the power consumption readings on the other PV-dedicated equipment if the latter doesn't know the wind power coming from the TS-45 is there?

They report no apparent difficulties with their wind power, but I thought I'd double check.
Thanks!
Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.

Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45
    Surfpath wrote: »
    The input from the 48v wind generator is said to be 'about 100-150 watts'.

    Unfortunately, these small wind turbines are infamous for being little more than scams, as in nearly all cases (been there done that) the real life power produced by these small turbines is so small as to be useless, or all but useless.
    In this case, purchasing the optional meter for the controller will almost certainly do two things - -
    1) Prove the wind turbine is useless except as a money maker for the retailer, and
    2) lower the consumer's bank account. In this case for no gain other than to prove the turbine was a waste of money.
    For it to be otherwise would be a real exception. For your friend, I hope his installation is that exception, but I fear it won't be.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45

    Let's just check something here: the TS45 is between the turbine and the batteries? Normally the turbine would be connected directly to the batteries and the controller used for diversion.

    Like Wayne said, it's a waste of money. The estimated 150 Watts maximum divided by 48 Volts show the turbine is putting out <4 Amps, or a tiny fraction of the TS45 capacity. This means the charge controller is probably consuming more energy than the turbine produces most of the time.

    Instead of buying a meter for the controller, use an Ammeter to check the turbine's output. A clamp-on meter is best, but it looks as though any DMM could be put in-line with that output and not be damaged.
    There is no remote temperature sensor from the controller to the bank (note: their temps vary only slightly, perhaps by 3 degrees on average (23c-27c). The historic lows and highs are probably 20c and 29c respectively. Their bank is located relatively close to the other RE equipment in a dedicated room under their house.

    Note that ambient temperature is not the same as battery temperature. There should be a RTS on the controller for the PV, as that is clearly doing the majority of charging.
    I'm personally interested on how this wind input affects the power consumption readings on the other PV-dedicated equipment if the latter doesn't know the wind power coming from the TS-45 is there?

    Not sure what you're asking about here. The wind is contributing maybe 3 Amps so it's not having much effect anyway. Otherwise, since most charge controllers use Voltage alone to determine state when you have more than one charge source there is no interference, merely a lack of accounting on one controller for the output from another. Controller readings are not an accurate way of keeping track of power consumption, as anyone who has ever had a set of batteries die from chronic deficit charging can attest.
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45
    Unfortunately, these small wind turbines are infamous for being little more than scams, as in nearly all cases (been there done that) the real life power produced by these small turbines is so small as to be useless, or all but useless.
    In this case, purchasing the optional meter for the controller will almost certainly do two things - -
    1) Prove the wind turbine is useless except as a money maker for the retailer, and
    2) lower the consumer's bank account. In this case for no gain other than to prove the turbine was a waste of money.
    For it to be otherwise would be a real exception. For your friend, I hope his installation is that exception, but I fear it won't be.

    Could always just pick up a small digital panel meter and shunt on ebay that measures ah. You can usually get them for around $10.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45

    Hi, Coot, Wayne and jchiel,
    Responses below in bold...
    Let's just check something here: the TS45 is between the turbine and the batteries? Normally the turbine would be connected directly to the batteries and the controller used for diversion.

    I checked again. You are right, the dedicated CC is set up to divert any excess power. It is not connected to the turbine.

    Like Wayne said, it's a waste of money. The estimated 150 Watts maximum divided by 48 Volts show the turbine is putting out <4 Amps, or a tiny fraction of the TS45 capacity. This means the charge controller is probably consuming more energy than the turbine produces most of the time.

    Their turbine and tower are already installed and paid for. Is it a good investment?? Maybe not super economical. Nevertheless, the owners seem to benefit from a pretty consistent 100-150watt charging source (They have decent and consistent coastal winds and estimate an average of 1 kwhr/day of power from the turbine). And at night their batteries don't drain down as much. I wish I had an additional, & night time, charging source, like Wayne does with 160watts of hydro. And while I know that wind and hydro are not the same, it's still not a bad thing to have

    The TS controller really uses a lot of power on it's own? I tried to see how much but all the Morningstar site says is "the self-consumption of the TS-45 is said to be "<20mA.." Would it be more efficient if they used a smaller diversion controller - can you recommend one?

    Instead of buying a meter for the controller, use an Ammeter to check the turbine's output. A clamp-on meter is best, but it looks as though any DMM could be put in-line with that output and not be damaged.

    An ammeter with a shunt is a cheaper alternative and a good suggestion for them. Thanks.

    Note that ambient temperature is not the same as battery temperature. There should be a RTS on the controller for the PV, as that is clearly doing the majority of charging.

    Yes, there is an RTS for the PV controller. The question I really had was should there be a separate Tri-Star RTS for the other (diversion) controller?
    Thanks!
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45

    The TS-45 used as a diversion controller can not be smaller because it has to be able to handle the combined current of all charging sources, even though the solar has its own controller and this scenario will never happen.

    So they're stuck with an extra 45 Amp controller managing 3 Amps of power. In this design the consumption is minimal unless you weigh it against the contribution. It's pretty much redundant. Normally for a small system the wind and solar are matched capacity, both tied directly to the batteries, and one (actual two as per regs) diversion controller is used to regulate both charge sources. With 2kW of solar that's not viable here.

    Definitely do something about monitoring the turbine's output to see what, if anything, it is really contributing. You don't mention the battery bank size but 150 Watts on 48 Volts even with one string of GC2's is basically <2% charge rate. In other words it looks like the turbine might prevent self-discharge but is not enough energy to contribute to actual charging. It could probably be removed without any noticeable difference.

    Also check the Voltage output of the turbine. "48 Volts" may be its open circuit Voltage not nominal system. It should be 60+ Volts to be of any use.

    On the whole it doesn't sound like a well-design system.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45

    Agree with Caboocoot. Furthermore, almost all "small wind" turbines are in general, a huge consumer scam with HUGELY hyped and exaggerated power output claims used to promote sales. Sad but true.
  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45
    Agree with Caboocoot. Furthermore, almost all "small wind" turbines are in general, a huge consumer scam with HUGELY hyped and exaggerated power output claims used to promote sales. Sad but true.

    Hi Coot and Wayne,
    Their wind turbine is fairly large, and the freestanding tower is about 40ft(?). I just called them to get the model and it's a Bergy 1kw windturbine with an 8ft rotor diameter (I did not see a 48v model on the Bergy web site only a 24v, but then again maybe this is custom made). So not exactly one of those little white 'fans' that you see perched on roofs or boats.

    I now think that in a blow they would get more than 150watts. Maybe the latter is an avg. Who knows. Since they have no readout as we have discussed before, they have no accurate way to gauge production over time. Instead of an ammeter perhaps they should really get a current/voltage logger? I briefly looked and these type of loggers all seem fairly expensive (~$200). Maybe that Tristar digital meter for 100 bucks makes sense?

    Another idea: Wayne, your sig. says that your turbine goes through your single TS-MPPT-60. Could their wind also go through the FM80 that the PV uses? That way some better data logging would be possible? Is the dump load then controlled by the FM80 through the AUX function?

    Your thoughts are super helpful. Thanks.
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45

    Well a 1 kW turbine ought to manage more like 20 Amps on a 48 Volt system, which is much more useful than 3. Bergey is known to build decent equipment. I would still test it, for both Voltage and current.

    Putting a meter on a diversion controller will only show you how much power is being dumped to the load. It will not show you how much power the turbine is putting out. You need to measure current between the turbine and the batteries to do that.

    A 1kW Bergey up a 40' tower is a lot better than what this started out looking like.
  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45

    Hi Coot,

    You need to measure current between the turbine and the batteries to do that.

    May seem like a basic task for some, but I just want to make sure I am safe. What's the best way to do that when I go back for another visit. I have one of these multi meters, not the clamp on type.
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45
    Surfpath wrote: »
    Hi Coot,

    You need to measure current between the turbine and the batteries to do that.

    May seem like a basic task for some, but I just want to make sure I am safe. What's the best way to do that when I go back for another visit. I have one of these multi meters, not the clamp on type.

    That meter would be no good as it will only read 10 Amps and there's potentially 20 or more there. If you can't get a clamp-on DC Ammeter (around $80) then jcheil's suggestion is a good one. Certainly cheaper than buying a TriMetric just to see what's going on with the turbine. Of course you'll have to watch it for output peaks.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45

    A 1kW Bergey up a 40' tower is a lot better than what this started out looking like.

    Haha I should say it's better! A huge difference between it and a little 150 watt unknown, perhaps screwed to a deck railing! Now we're talking a "real" wind turbine! :D
  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Tristar-45
    Haha I should say it's better! A huge difference between it and a little 150 watt unknown, perhaps screwed to a deck railing! Now we're talking a "real" wind turbine! :D

    There are so many small cheap turbines out there that I can understand the assumption that it was a small fan.

    I am trying to help this homeowner understand their system better and maximize their power production. It would be nice to set up a more permanent way for them to see (ideally log) what their wind generator is producing. Then they can start making other decisions. Coot I didn't realize that a TS digital gauge would only measure the amount of power being dumped. rats.

    Wayne, any feedback about just using the one controller (the FM80 currently used for PV), like you do with your hydro?
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.