why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?

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Why not just use rhw-2, use -2 that you plug your panels into, stuff the wires into a conduit and run all the way to inverter. Any cost savings using thwn versus use2. My authority having jursid told me he didn't like me running use-2 all the way from PVs to Inverter but must provide a junction box to plug my MC4 connectors from the PV panels into, then transition at that point to thwn-2 which would stuff into a 3/4 EMT conduit to run down the wall to my inverter. I bought a coule of 100 foot rolls of rhw-2. What is the diff if the rhw-2 specs are better? Mike

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?
    michaelc wrote: »
    Why not just use rhw-2, use -2 that you plug your panels into, stuff the wires into a conduit and rub all the way to inverter. Any cost savings using thwn versus use=2. My authority having jursid told me he didn't like me running use-2 all the way but must provide a junction box to plug my MC4 connectors from the PV panels into, the transition at that point to thwn-2 which would stuff into a 3/4 EMT conduit to run down the wall to my inverter. I bought a coule of 100 foot rolls of rhw-2. What is the diff if the rhw-2 specs are better? Mike

    A couple of issues. First being multiple parallel panel connections requiring over-current protection at the junction box which should be located near the panels. Second, the combined current at that point usually indicates going to a larger wire size and quite often the length of the run to the controller or GTI wants a larger size to reduce Voltage drop. Third, there's a limit to how much wire you can stuff into any given size conduit and wire in conduit has a lower current rating (less heat dissipation). Fourth, PV rated wire is more expensive per foot.

    So all things considered changing to standard, larger gauge TWHN where the panels are combined is safer and cheaper with less power loss.

    Although we have had one report of an inspector demanding "PV-rated wire" be used, in conduit, all the way down. Apparently he thought electricity generated by solar panels was somehow different and couldn't be carried on ordinary wire. :p
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,443 admin
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?

    It looks like "PV" rated wire is, by some vendors, being required for running back to the GT inverters now:

    http://www.pv-cables.com/faq.html
    Which inverters require double insulated PV wire?

    Double Insulated PV wire is required on transformer-less inverters, here is a short list of the inverters that require PV Wire:

    ~ SMA Sunny Boy 8000, 9000, & 10,000W
    ~ Power-One Aurora inverters 3kw to 12kW
    ~ Solar Edge – entire line

    The industry is moving to standardize on the PV Wire. Consensus is that the double jacket will last much longer in the sun on a hot roof.


    What are the differences between PV wire and USE-2 wire?
    Whereas USE-2 wire has long been accepted for PV module interconnections, PV wire is newly addressed in the 2008 edition of the NEC. Though their construction and performance requirements are similar, some variations between PV wire and USE-2 wire do exist due to their unique installation conditions. Below is a comparison of these two types of wires, based on their usage, construction and testing requirements:
    Usage

    PV wire, with 90ºC wet rating and up to 150ºC dry rating, is dedicated for interconnecting PV modules. USE-2 wire is designated as underground service entrance cable typically for connecting to the terminals of service equipment. It is limited to installations in maximum 90ºC wet and dry conditions.
    Both USE-2 wire and PV wire can be rated 600 V. However, PV wire can also be rated 1000 V and 2000 V to accommodate photovoltaic modules intended for use in systems with a system voltage greater than 600 V. Per the NEC, USE-2 wire is suitable for use in grounded PV arrays only but PV wire can be used within both grounded and ungrounded PV arrays.

    Construction

    PV wire comes with a thicker insulation or jacket to provide additional mechanical protection against the physical abuse that USE-2 wire typically receives. PV wire employs stranded copper conductors to make it flexible enough for the intended application. On the contrary, USE-2 wire can employ either solid or stranded conductors made of copper, copper-clad aluminum or aluminum since it is typically installed in locations not subject to movement or mechanical damages. The minimum conductor size for USE-2 wire is 14 AWG, but PV wire can employ a smaller conductor size down to 18 AWG.
    Insulation and jacket materials – both PV wire and USE-2 wire use thermoset insulation and jacket typically made of XLPE or EPCV. Nevertheless, other thermoset materials such as CP over EP, CP over EPCV, SBR/IIR/NR and EP are also available. PV wire may also be constructed similar to Type UF but uses an additional 15 mils of 90ºC wet and dry rated integral PVC insulation and jacket.
    ...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?

    Well you can see why that would be, Bill: transformerless inverters.
    Remember the promos for "double insulated" power tools? No more ground wire!

    Frankly once you've stuck it in conduit it should not be an issue at all. Especially not plastic conduit. Some AHJ's will require metal (and the NEC allows that to be used as a ground conductor :roll: ) which would not be as safe.

    I'm not sure they have any incident statistics to back up these regulations. Meanwhile lamp cord wiring continues to burn down houses. Yes, they certainly know what they're doing when it comes to regulations! Makes you think the rules are being made by the anti-solar gang. :p
  • Brewgonia
    Brewgonia Solar Expert Posts: 31
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?

    Or the pro-PV rated wire lobbyists are just better than the standard wire guys...

    Remember, unlike the International series of constructions codes (International Code Council) which are a MINIMUM level of regulation, the NEC doesn't work that way.
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?

    USE-2 wire is originally for underground service and is not fire rated and as such is not to be used within a structure. OK on the roof but not inside. If conduit is all outside and relatively short just USE-2 all the way, but no bid deal to put in j-box with polaris type connectors and change to THHN wire.
  • michaelc
    michaelc Solar Expert Posts: 36
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?
    solarix wrote: »
    USE-2 wire is originally for underground service and is not fire rated and as such is not to be used within a structure. OK on the roof but not inside. If conduit is all outside and relatively short just USE-2 all the way, but no bid deal to put in j-box with polaris type connectors and change to THHN wire.

    The ahj didnt care about no cb protection at the panels as the sunnyboy has a built in dc disconnect with protection. But my 10ga rhw-2 that I have 100 feet of seems to be equal to if not better than thwn for a 35 ft run inside emt. I pointed out to him that the nec 2014 version allows rhw-2 amoung others for a current carrying conductor to the inverter. He wants me to take my 4 conductors and splce them into two thwn at the panels and then run that into the conduit to the inverter. He said it was code reqs, but since I need him to sign off the electrical box for the permit. I guess I should humble myself and spend more money for the thwn. He also wouldnt sign off until I brought him the pv module user manual with the grounding torque reqs. Sheez I can understand now why the lack of standards betwix state and city ahj dudes is frustrating
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,443 admin
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?

    See if you can get him to give you the applicable code section--Say you just want to make sure you get the details correct and the installation is safe.

    Basically, you want to ensure the installation is safe--Sometimes code is miss-read/miss-applied and things go sideways.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • michaelc
    michaelc Solar Expert Posts: 36
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?
    BB. wrote: »
    See if you can get him to give you the applicable code section--Say you just want to make sure you get the details correct and the installation is safe.

    Basically, you want to ensure the installation is safe--Sometimes code is miss-read/miss-applied and things go sideways.

    -Bill
    Yes Bill, I agree wholeheartedly that the code is a slow read. Scripture reads like a golden children's story comparatively
  • jaggedben
    jaggedben Solar Expert Posts: 230 ✭✭
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?
    michaelc wrote: »
    The ahj didnt care about no cb protection at the panels as the sunnyboy has a built in dc disconnect with protection. But my 10ga rhw-2 that I have 100 feet of seems to be equal to if not better than thwn for a 35 ft run inside emt. I pointed out to him that the nec 2014 version allows rhw-2 amoung others for a current carrying conductor to the inverter. He wants me to take my 4 conductors and splce them into two thwn at the panels and then run that into the conduit to the inverter. He said it was code reqs, but since I need him to sign off the electrical box for the permit. I guess I should humble myself and spend more money for the thwn. He also wouldnt sign off until I brought him the pv module user manual with the grounding torque reqs. Sheez I can understand now why the lack of standards betwix state and city ahj dudes is frustrating

    Your inspector is off base, since you are using wire that's cross-listed as rhw-2, and you're using it according to code.

    The main reason to use THWN in conduit instead of USE-2/RHW-2 is that the latter has a thicker total cross-section and thus you can't put as many wires in the same size conduit. For example if you had three strings you'd be unable to put 6 #10 USE-2 plus a ground wire in 3/4" conduit, whereas 7 #10 @THWN-2 would be fine. Also, THWN-2 is cheaper (although not necessarily enough to justify the cost of a j-box).


    For residential installers, standardizing on 3/4" conduit and THWN saves a lot of planning and inventory headache. Possibly your inspector has seen it done this way on all the other installations he's looked at, and assumes there must be a code reason they do it that way. But he'd be wrong.

    Bill, et. al,:
    PV wire for transformerless inverters is not required all the way back to the inverter. Conductors in raceways also meet the requirements in 690.35.
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?

    I agree with Solarix
    For the price you can get basic THHN for @ any store, I just use THHN in conduit, inspectors don't think twice about it.
    Its just about temp rating and RMS amp rating that should really be the only thing arguable with inspectors. I always run inspectors in the mud with this chart.
    Become your own advocate and point out their own B.S..
    Attachment not found.
  • michaelc
    michaelc Solar Expert Posts: 36
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?
    I agree with Solarix
    For the price you can get basic THHN for @ any store, I just use THHN in conduit, inspectors don't think twice about it.
    Its just about temp rating and RMS amp rating that should really be the only thing arguable with inspectors. I always run inspectors in the mud with this chart.
    Become your own advocate and point out their own B.S..
    Attachment not found.

    well, since I have so much rhw-2 I am going to use that stuff up and hope he wont make me open up the conduit. I will add some breakers in a j box next tot he array though even if the DC disconnect provides varister protection, not Circuit Breakers, the cb I feel better about and can also pwr them off in case of panel maint. Also want to add a lightning protection too as we get wicked ones each spring and the box has room to hold a couple. The charts reveal similarities in wiring.
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
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    Re: why do you use-2 and transition to thwn in a j box?
    michaelc wrote: »
    The charts reveal similarities in wiring.

    What isn't similar is the insulation, and wire strand type, so don't confuse the temp/ampers (RMS) to its physical wire strand and insulation diameter sizing.
    (Example):In a 1" EMT conduit RHW-2/10AWG is limited to a pack and fill of 10 conductors total, while THHN/10AWG of the same thermal property will allow a pack and fill of 16 conductors in the same 1" conduit, then you also have to refer to NEC for pack and fill % factors.

    Just sounds like your inspector wanted you to do alot of unnecessary work.
    THHN has a much thinner insulation and a thicker strand type than most of the THWN-2, XHHW, or in your case the RHW-2/USE-2.

    THHN will give you better pack and fill than lets say XHHN, THW-2, THHW, USE-2, or RHW-2.