Inverter Issue ??

GreenPowerManiac
GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
Today, noticed that my ATS was switching back and forth every 30 seconds. Got a heavy draw to the inverter from battery bank (around 50 amps) and about 1kw load when comes on. There is virtually no load going to the transfer switch and coop. Was thinking of an internal short ?? No apparent signs of fault or burning. Any other clues ??
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Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    How are you measuring that 50 amps the inverter is drawing? 50 amps X 12 volts = 600 watts. If there is no AC load on the inverter, and the inverter is not getting hot, VERY hot, I would not be trusting whatever device is showing you the 50 amp draw on the batteries.
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    I've got an amp meter between battery bank and inverter post. Haven't checked to see if it's getting hot, yet displays 900-1000 watts when turns on. The amount of loads in coop is around 4-500 on average for light bulbs and one water feeder heater @ 100 watts.

    Am thinking now that there's an internal short maybe at the posts. No signs of burning, otherwise I'd be smelling something.
    This unit has double posts for separate hookup. Going to attempt to change posts to see if problem solves itself.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    If there was an internal short, in the inverter, that is drawing that huge amount of current, YOU WOULD KNOW IT BY THE SMOKE AND FLAMES. If the inverter is powering it's AC loads normally, as it sounds like it is, the problem is not going to be in your inverter. It's HIGHLY likely you have a defective display, or amp meter.
    Assuming of course we correctly understand what you are saying in your posts.
    By the way, your earlier statement: "Today, noticed that my ATS was switching back and forth every 30 seconds." - - - - what is "ATS"?
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??
    By the way, your earlier statement: "Today, noticed that my ATS was switching back and forth every 30 seconds." - - - - what is "ATS"?

    Maybe Automatic Transfer Switch?
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Yes. Auto transfer switch.

    Issue is between inverter and battery bank. There is a disconnect switch in between. Will try and tighten connections. Could a fuse be going bad or grounding?

    Meter is fine.
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  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Is it a stand-alone transfer switch?

    From what I know of them, they are generally a large contactor (or 2).
    The coil part of the contactor could be going bad and not have enough strength to keep the contacts closed any more.

    Or whatever signal sends voltage to the coil could be going bad. On my external transfer switch, I use a small timer circuit that senses AC on the line(generator) side and after 30 seconds, energizes the coil of the contactor using that same voltage. So if that voltage drops out, the contactor opens up again switching back to the inverter automatically.

    Sounds like either the contactor is bad or the circuit that controls it is bad.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Checked connections between battery bank and disconnect, then to inverter. All fine. The A/C output on the inverter is sending squirrely voltage signals. They fluctuate so much, the reading is constantly changing voltage. I'll have to take it down to open it up after I jump it from another set of input lines to make sure the symptoms remain.

    ATS is good, just bought it 2 months ago. It responds to the relay signals and makes the switch like my other inside the house. ( This one is in the barn and doesn't smell of burnt electronics).
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  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Just a thought:

    The ATS simply switches the power from one source to another. Like in the case of being on an inverter all the time and then when a generator is fired up, the ATS senses that and then switches over to the generator source.

    If that ATS is switching back and forth every 30 seconds, then I would think that has nothing to do with your batteries. It would have to be something to do with the AC side(s) that is feeding into the ATS (and the control circuit).

    Perhaps, again just thinking out load, if you did have some exceptional draw (due to a short perhaps) on the AC inverter side, it could momentarially pull so much from the inverter that your battery voltage would drop down below the inverter cut-off voltage, thus causing the ATS to flip to the other source (even if it is not there). Then, that allows the battery voltage to recover momentarially and the inverter comes back online, and the ATS then senses that and switches back on.

    Same kinda thing could happen (in my case) if when a small generator was started there was more of a load than the generator could handle and the moment it comes on, the voltage from the generator is dragged down enough to cause the ATS to drop back out switching back to the inverter, causing the generator to go back up to speed, thus making the ATS try to switch back to it again, and the loop continues.

    Now (in your case) this would only happen if you had the ATS wired in a way that the inverter poles were tied to the normally open sides of the ATS so that the inverter power was the signal that energized the coil keeping the connection/contacts active. I wired my ATS with the inverter on the normally closed contacts so the ATS coils are only energized when the generator is turned on and it switches to generator power. My theory is that there is no reason to keep the coils energized 24/7 on the inverter. Only keep them energized for the few hours the generator is running. Then when the generator shuts off, the ATS simply switches back to inverter power via the mechanical spring in the coil rather than needing a power signal.

    Again, just my guess. But I really don't think it has anything to do with the batteries and inverter (DC side) since that really doesn't have anything to do with the function of an ATS that switches AC.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Yes, I agree. The output on the inverter side is hooked directly to the ATS. Everything was working for the first few months. Now getting crazy readings from its output lines as voltage. Guessing the short is around that point. Will have to take it down and look at it more closely to diagnose.

    The system is relayed through a 24/7 digital timer, potentiometer, and 12v relay to start up the inverter when all conditions are met, otherwise the system is off.
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  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Maybe as a test, eliminate that ATS so that the only thing feeding that barn is the inverter. I am also not 100% sure I understand why you even have a 2nd ATS but that doesn't matter.
    Then if you do have some kind of short out there, I would think the inverter would fault and shut down.
    If it does, then you would know 100% that there is something going on with the wiring out there and it would eliminate anything to do with the ATS/Inverter.

    At that point, again just throwing out ideas, I would disconnect everything from the barn and just connect a single light bulb of some kind to the feed and see if you still cause the inverter to fault. If it does, then you would know the short is somewhere in the feed wire to the barn. if not, then it is something in the individual circuits in the barn.

    I has a similar issue that drove me CRAZY for almost a year:
    I had a 120' feed to my storage container using underground direct bury 10/2 wire to power a couple of outlets and lights. Every few weeks, the inverter would fault. I had no idea what was causing it at that time. But since the last thing I had installed was that feed, I leaned towards it being the problem. The feed came right from my house breaker panel on a dedicated circuit to the container. I changed it so that that circuit instead fed a GFI outlet just outside the house and then continued on to the container. Sure enough, a week later, the GFI had tripped, but at least at this point the inverter had not faulted so I knew the problem was in that circuit.

    I disconnected everything from the feed in the container and connected it to a single light bulb. A few days later the GFI tripped again so I knew that the problem was somewhere in the feed wire. Dreading having to dig up a wire I started at the container end and to my luck, after uncovering it about 10' back from the container I noticed a small nick in the insulation of the wire. not enough to expose the conductors, but enough to let moisture in. Quite a bit actually because I stripped all the insulation off and the inside of the wire was wet almost 20' past the nick. I guess that was enough to cause the GFI fault.

    I replaced the entire wire, being super careful this time and it has been fine for 2+ years now.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Diagnosis results :

    The inverter was taken down completely and circuit boards removed.

    All 40 amp fuses on D/C boards where OK. Has two Input D/C ports +/-.

    Seen no cracks or burn marks, etc. Had a few spots on the board which may have jumped by some white powdery crud, but easily cleaned.

    Put back together and tested: This result was better than the previous symptoms, and not quite cured either.

    Hooked up to a small battery for a test with amp meter hooked up to positive line and turned on power to the unit: Works fine and now get 120v out of the outlets and the output stated in earlier posts. No pulsing whatsoever with voltage. The only remaining issue is that it's drawing 8 amps from the battery at an idle with nothing hooked up.

    Is there enough information here to get closer to the real issue ???
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Sounds like one of the output transistors or transistor drive circuits is failing/has failed (just a guess). With close to 100 watts of energy being dumped into "something"... I would just let it sit at idle for a minute or so and see what gets hot--Then work from there (be careful not to burn yourself/get a shock).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Is it worth having someone fix it?
    Spent 900 on it originally.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    If it is more than ~10 years old... I would certainly not put a lot of money into repairs ($100-$200 at most?).

    If it is less than 5 years old, you may be willing to put 25% to 50% of the price of a new inverter (current product/pricing)...

    Depends how much somebody will charge to repair it... And if you put a $150 minimum repair charge (just a SWAG) into the inverter and it was not repairable--Then what...

    This is one of the open-ended/unknown costs of generating your own power. Failures that need to be fixed/replaced.

    A lot of power electronics seem to run the switching transistors right on the ragged edge (matched parts, tweaking control stages for optimum performance, etc.). It is not always easy to simply get a few new parts and solder them in.

    But, I have not repaired inverters before--Perhaps somebody with more experience (with your brand) can help you more.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Yes. Am looking into those transistors. Got it half apart again and will take the D/C boards out next.

    Just figures that it was taken apart and re-assembled, then the A/C output started working. Bad connections ? Coincidence ? Checked the fuses, yet didn't take them out and re-install for possible bad connections. Going to do that next and see if anything suspicious.

    One way or another, it'll either get fixed or sold for scrap.

    This is the inverter we're talking about: http://www.topsalesdepot.com/bwapusiwapoi1.html

    Since it's running the chicken coop with nothing but bulbs/fans may just downsize to a smaller unit or modified sine wave system that's cheaper.
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  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Finally took the lower D/C boards out and found a couple areas where it looked like the flux melted a bit. Glad there are two identical boards to compare each other. Some of the solder lines under the coil packs looked like they where melted and soldered to other lines. Had to unsolder them carefully and also noticed that two +/- where connected by some dark crud. That was fun cleaning the gaps with two lines with opposite charges. Used a plastic pick for that one. Wonder if it was grounding while some components had condensation. Almost two weeks ago we had some 70 degree weather after a 30 degree day. Wonder if that was the time it started screwing up bridging gaps with moisture...... All transistors looked OK. The bottom board, which was where the battery lines where hooked up, had an unusually high amount of solder all over it. When it was drawing 50 amps, could it have re-soldered itself ?
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  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Got it back together again. Draws about 96 watts at idle. A/C output it back to normal 120v +/- 2v.
    However, am getting 80 volts on my (Green) Earth ground wire coming from ATS when Inverter is shut down. Left the line dangling.
    Does this indicate a bad ground or inadequate ?

    Batteries checked and all good.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    This is the inverter we're talking about: http://www.topsalesdepot.com/bwapusiwapoi1.html

    .

    WOW! 4500 watt, 9000 watt surge, 12 volt Pure Sine inverter for $850.
    Depending on efficiency, that's only a max battery draw of close to 1000 amps at surge.
    That puts the inverter in a whole different light.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??
    WOW! 4500 watt, 9000 watt surge, 12 volt Pure Sine inverter for $850.
    Depending on efficiency, that's only a max battery draw of close to 1000 amps at surge.
    That puts the inverter in a whole different light.

    Yes: it's a piece of junk that should have been thrown in the trash at the design stage.
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Am convinced the inverter is fine. Checked my ATS and between generator/offshore posts am picking up some voltage bleed over (Neutral on genny side to hot on offshore side). Around 18-20 volts when inverter is off. When on is 80 volts.

    Have the same ATS inside the house working the main battery bank. This one has virtually no bleed over from genny to offshore posts. Less than 1 volt and works great. Could this be the electronics in the ATS that's partially shorted out ?

    Think JCHeil is correct. The ATS may be the culprit, yet why is it getting bleed over ?? All inverter lines are hooked up to the genny side(backwards of normal ATS). Is somewhere inside still making partial contact ?
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??
    Am convinced the inverter is fine. The ATS may be the culprit

    Didn't you already run the inverter with nothing connected to it's output as a test and still thought it had that obscene excess power draw?
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Sorry? Was thinking in A/C amps. 8 amps dc is about 96 watts. Tested with 40the watt soldering iron, added about 3.5 amps, which is right on the money. Back to the subject, wonder if the contacts in the ATS are still making connection.........
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  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??
    Am convinced the inverter is fine. Checked my ATS and between generator/offshore posts am picking up some voltage bleed over (Neutral on genny side to hot on offshore side). Around 18-20 volts when inverter is off. When on is 80 volts.

    Have the same ATS inside the house working the main battery bank. This one has virtually no bleed over from genny to offshore posts. Less than 1 volt and works great. Could this be the electronics in the ATS that's partially shorted out ?

    Think JCHeil is correct. The ATS may be the culprit, yet why is it getting bleed over ?? All inverter lines are hooked up to the genny side(backwards of normal ATS). Is somewhere inside still making partial contact ?

    What is the brand/make/model of the ATS?
    And please do eliminate the ATS (as a test) completely and only connect the inverter directly.
    Then see if the Inverter faults and get your readings from there.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    LPT50BRD LIGHT Rv ATS.
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  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Ok, here is what I would do if I were there:

    #1 remove the ATS completely (as a test) and just connect directly to the inverter and run it for a while and see if the same problem exists. If it does, then you have a wiring issue somewhere from where the AC leaves the inverter to your loads.

    Then (regardless of what happens in step #1): Wire the ATS PROPERLY. Meaning, your primary power (i.e. the power that is there 90% of the time; usually the inverter) should be connected to the contacts that are normally closed. Your "alternate power" (i.e. generator) should be connected to the contacts that are closed when the coil is energized.

    The way you have it now, you are energizing the coil 100% of the time which not only is a waste of power but will simply make the relay wear out faster (which may be your case now). Also it is possible that if you had such a large momentary draw, the voltage could drop down enough to drop out the coil (which is what i think is happening).

    If you wire it up the proper way, the coil will only be energized when the generator is running which would be less frequent than the amount of time the inverter is powering it. Then the only time you could have an "issue" with the coil dropping out is when you were on generator power and THAT power suddenly dropped; which really wouldn't matter because if it did drop out, the inverter (on the other side of the contacts) is still supplying power. You would likely not even notice it.

    Without doing these 2 things I would be at a loss as to what to try next.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??

    Happy ending ???

    YES !!

    Was the ATS. Called the merchant and they sent another. That one works like my identical inside the house.

    Looked at the old one and found nothing suspicious, not even a burnt circuit or smell. Might have been some crud between the DC coil contacts...Who knows....
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  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??
    Happy ending ???

    YES !!

    Was the ATS. Called the merchant and they sent another. That one works like my identical inside the house.

    Looked at the old one and found nothing suspicious, not even a burnt circuit or smell. Might have been some crud between the DC coil contacts...Who knows....

    I am leaning towards a week/failing coil, but super glad you were able to resolve the issue!
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter Issue ??
    sureshYB wrote: »
    I have a 50 watt solar panel and a 75 watt AC to DC inverter. FYI, I don't use it to power anything greater than 40-50 watts. My problem is very simple. The inverter doesn't provide steady power. Instead, the light blinks on and off. So when a device is being charged, it's getting intermittent power rather than continuous.
    Welcome to the forum,

    I suppose your inverter is DC to AC, not AC to DC.

    You don't mention a battery or a charge controller in the system. That is your problem... you need a battery to stabilize the voltage that the inverter sees from the panel. Once you have a battery, you will also need a charge controller to protect the battery from being overcharged by the solar panel.

    btw, this should probably be a new thread

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i