What can I do with what I got

System · July 2006

All questions are #'ed please refer to # with answers. :-)
All items in green are hooked up and running right now.

Solar Panels
Arco Solar 110W
Double M55 panels framed as single
25 deg C rating 47 deg C rating
-55W -49.9W
-3.13A -3.22A
-17.6V -15.5V
-Short Ckt 3.29A -Short Ckt 3.51A
Thus I assume 110W panel is making idealy 17.6V 6.26A if in full sun.
This panel is still sitting in my hallway. Glass front is all cracked into pieces the size of the keys on a keyboard but the pieces do not come off. I will use the panel like this I just need some more length of wire.
1. On panel back it says (Bypass Diode = Instl Instr 233-701500-12). Does this mean I need to put a diode in line with the panel or is it teling me already has one?
2. Also on back it says (Series Fuse = 5 Amp) Same question do I need to add one or does it have one in it?

Astro Power 90W
Double panels framed as single thus each module is rated 45W. That is all the info I got on this one.
_________________________________________________
Charge Controllers
ASC Specialty Concepts Inc.
Says on it (Battery charge regulator for photovoltaic systems)
I know that it is for 12V systems but that is about it.

Guest Co. Inc.
MTC Multi Task Charger
Automatic 3 Stage Battery Charger
Model = 2606A
Input = 115VAC 1.6A
Output = 12VDC 6A
Max Batt = 100 Hr Max Bat
Date Code = Feb 17 2004
I use this to charge the batteries except the Concord one. I use the batteries (see below) right now for jumping friends cars about twice a year and that is about it.
_________________________________________________
Inverter
Xantrex
Model = XPower 1000 Watt
Printed on unit: 12VDC 120A Max In
115VAC 60Hz 1000W Out (thus roughly 8.5A of current)
_________________________________________________
Batteries
One 12V AGM (VRLA) Concorde PVX-2580L
Sun-Xtender
-Charge with 14.2V
-Float charge with 13.2-13.4V
-Equalize Charge with 14.4V

One 12V Lead/Acid Nonsealed Supertron L-3
Model = 4D-HD
Cranking Amps = 1150
Cold Cranking Amps = 920

One 12V Lead/Acid Nonsealed Everstart Maxx
Model = Maxx-1S
Cranking Amps = 875@32 deg F
Cold Cranking Amps = 700

One 12V Lead/Acid Superstart
Model = 58-72
Cranking Amps = 520@32 deg F
Cold Cranking Amps = 430@0 deg F
_________________________________________________
Misc.
A/C Circuit Breaker box
Hold 8 and have 8 in it 20A each

A/C Fused Disconnect box
Central airconditioner type which holds 2 shotgun shell fuses
Have 2 250V 60A fuses in it now
3. Thought this might be used in between the inverter and fuse box if it is required to have a disconnect there. Is a disconnect needed here and can this be used if so?

Leece-Neville Alternator
Has two model #'s on it so I will list each seperatly even though they are connected.
Model = 8LHA2070VB
Amps = 130
Volts = 12
Date = 199950
Sales # = 110-555
Model = 8R02101A
Amps = 7
Volts = 12
Date = 199950
Sales # = 105-329
Has two large screw post connections labeled PO3 & Neg and 3 smaller screw post connections.
4. Might be able to be converted to a windmill generator. If so anyone got an idea on what I might expect to get in wattage from this?

Now before anyone rags on any of this I have only paid $32.46 for everything listed above. This was the price of the circuit breaker box and 8 breakers to fill it.

Right now I have the above listed in green hooked up and running certain circuits in my house. The circuits consist of all lights (compact flouro) and outles that do not have large items pluged into them.

What I am doing is this. As I build onto the solar and battery system I take more and more household wiring and move it over to my solar powered fuse box. That way the systems are kept seperate. Note that I try to not use the battery past 20% of full charge. I do not have a metering system so this is kinda tricky. Basically I have done some math and figured how long I can run certain items which are connected to the solar system. I figured I could use <51.6Ahrs fromt the battery which is its 20% mark. I turn things off when I estimate 45Ahrs have been used. I also check the voltage of the battery at least once a day to guess the usage.
5. The next item I want to hook up to my system is the outlet that runs a 5,000 BTU Window A/C Unit. The unit states that it draws 550W. I derived fromthis that it is using 115V @ roughly 4.79A. I think that if nothing else was running I could run the window unit for up to 4 hours and be within the 20% discharge I try to keep for my battery. Is this correct?
6. Since I only have that one 90W panel hooked up right now how long does it take for the panel to recharge the battery if it has been discharged 20%?
7. I would like to hook my other panel up to help charge the battery but I am not sure if the ASC charge controller can handle the combined amperages of both panels. Any cheap ideas for charging? Keep in mind my system cost so far.
8. I would at least like to be able to keep al my batteries float charging all the time. I do not want to combine the batteries I have now to run my system as I have read, heard, and seen bad things happen to batteries when this is done. I want to use the concord as I have been but still chargge the others. IS this possible with some crazy wiring?

That is all I got for the moment as I am tired but I may continue later.
Thanks in advance everyone.

crewzer · July 2006

Re: What can I do with what I got

Tsunami,

About where are you located? If possible, please pick your location from this list .

Moe later,
Jim / cewzer

System2 · July 2006

Re: What can I do with what I got

I am at 13968 Tulsa, OK.
Please note that this system is mostly to offset some of my electric cost in Summer. Thusly only summer time solar irradiation need apply. I have no real heavy electrical loads in the winter. The only high laod in winter would be my fridge which I am not planning on puting on my solar system at the moment. I have not even looked to see what the thing draws. I am rather precise and for estimating the fridge power draw I would isolate that outlets wiring to one breaker and just put a kill-o-watt meter on it to determine what the unit is actually using. I have alway rough guess wattage for fridge calculations but I would not put it on my battery system before I have an actual and accurate reading. The water heater will definatly be the last thing that goes on my system. So basically I just use compact flouros and a laptop in the winter.

crewzer · July 2006

Re: What can I do with what I got

Tsunami,

I attended a conference once where Phil Condit, the former Boeing Chairman, was the guest speaker. At the end of his remarks, he volunteered to take question, with the following rules: Members of the audience could ask any question they wanted, and he could answer any question he wanted.

Thus I assume (the ARCO) 110W panel is making idealy 17.6V 6.26A if in full sun.

Wrong. The original STC spec was for the values listed, but with a cell temperature of 25 C (77 F) and a wind speed of 1 meter/sec. Cell temp under full sun can be 35 C (63 F) above ambient, so don’t look for full output anytime soon in OK. Also, PV module tends to deteriorate with age, and your ARCO’s (pre-Siemens) are old.

(A#1) Bypass diodes are not blocking diodes, and they were probably not supplied with the modules. Check the internet (including the NAWS technical information) for both applications and how to install them, but they’re probably not needed for your system.

(A#2) The modules probably did not come with a fuse. A fuse or a breaker between the PV module(s) and the controller is a good safety precaution. Check the National Electrical Code (NEC) Section 690 on how to spec and size fuses for a PV array

Astro Power was acquired by General Electric. Check GE’s website for specs on their 45 W PV module.

Check Specialty Concepts’ website for specs on your ASC charger.

The Guest charger’s output voltage (~14 V in absorption stage) is too low for flooded-cell batteries, but it’s better than nothing. With a 6 A output rating, it’s good for batteries up to ~100 Ah (i.e., a Group 27 size 12 V battery).

The Xantrex Xpower inverter is a 1000 W modified sine wave (MSW) inverter. Check Xantrex’ website for more info. Because it’s an MSW design, it should not be used for devices containing big electric motors, such as fridges and air conditioners.

The Concorde PVX-2580’s present condition is unknown, but it was once a premium battery rated at 12 v X 258 Ah (24 hr rate). The other batteries are probably junk, but here’s a link to a good flooded-cell battery maintenance guide.

(A#5) This is not correct. (a) The A/C may draw 550 W while running, but it’ll draw anywhere from 1100 W to 3300 W when starting. Consumption from an MSW inverter will be even higher. I doubt the Xantrex 1000 W inverter will start this A/C. (b) The A/C may draw 4.79 A at 115 VAC, but it’ll draw 10 X that much current from a 12 V source. Factoring in the inverter’s conversion loss plus the MSW penalty, the A/C’s load on the 12 V battery will be something like 60 A while running, and ~120 to 360 A while starting. The single 12 V battery won’t sustain such a load.

(A#6) The 90 W module’s mid-day output current is ~5 A, and 20% of the big AGM battery’s capacity is ~ 52 Ah. The mid-day charge current is ~2% of capacity, and absorption stage charging is current limited. I think it’ll take at least three days to recharge the battery, and likely longer.

(A#7) Check the ASC’s spec on line and see if it can handle ~16 A.

(A#8) You can use a big battery switch to select between battery #1, battery #2, both or none.

HTH,
Jim / crewzer

System2 · July 2006

Re: What can I do with what I got

Thank you very much for replying crewzer.

Yes, I know the ARCO panel I have is not producing a full 110W in full sun that is why I said ideally. I realize age does factor into power output too and yes this panel is way old. Amazingly though last time I tested it (for 3 days about a year ago) it produced 17.4V @ ~6A at 12 noon. Needless to say I was astonished that could do this even with completely cracked glass and calcium deposits on the silicon cells (from water getting inside the cracked glass). It is kind of hard to describe. Basically this panel is the ugliest panel I have ever seen.

About my "Guest" charger. It was from an auto repair shop and used to recharge car batteries. You said, "it's good for batteries up to 100Ah (...)." Car batteries, which it was used for and which i still use it for are not rated in Ah. Do you happen to know off hand the formula for calculating Ah from cranking amps or cold cranking amps @12V? The largest battery I have is the huge Supertron L-3 @ 1150 Cranking Amps.

I am aware that my Xantrex is lowly MSW. I would not think of using it with the fridge. But a cheap window A/C unit is tempting to put to the test. I do of course realize as you stated that the starting load for the A/C will be higher. The blower motor probably will run off the inverter I think but when the compresser kicks on that is a different story. You are right that will probably kick the breaker inside the inverter and shut it down (makes a horrible high pitch screaming when this happens).

My Concord is probably not in the best condition I realize. Unfortunately all I have are multimeters to determine the condition of the batteries with. It holds a charge well but probably does need to be desulfinated, boost charged, or what ever that is called to refresh the battery a bit. As for the other batteries I know they are junk but they all hold a charge well and jump cars easily which is what I use them for. I think I said this before but I will say it again, I am not wanting to use them in any way other than what I currently use them for. I just want to keep them trickle charged. That way when a friend calls and asks for a jump I can get the situation resolved quickly rather than having to wait 2-6 hours for the chosen battery to be charged up. Basically is it ok to have ~12-14V @ 8A charging all of the above batteries simultaneously? Would it be enough to charge them all at the same time?

In regards to charging the Concord battery from the 90W panel hooked up to it now you are correct. It does take 3 days to recharge the 50Ah used. I tested this before I hooked any of my house lighting up to the system. Thus is the reason I am looking to get the ARCO panel back outside to help charge the battery. I am just not sure what the ASC charger can handle. I think I asked the wrong question. If the ASC says on it that it can output 8A then if I wire my two panels together to produce maximum amperage (which is more than 8A) will that damage the ASC charger having more input than output or will it simply chop it to 8A out and make a good bit more heat? The spec sheet on the unit does not say how much input it can handle unless I just did not see it in there.

Patman3 · July 2006

Re: What can I do with what I got

About bypass diodes, I believe they are built in to some panels, like my Mitsubishi and possibly yours. When panels are in series and 1 gets shaded or messed up the bypass diode will allow the rest of the panels to still supply current. Our host has this -http://store.solar-electric.com/8ampbypdiod.html
The fuse probably isn't in the panel but I think they tell you that so you know about what size to use. Yours said 5A but you are getting 6A so I would fuse it around 8A or 10A. I didn't put a fuse in my panels, but maybe there is some code that says you should.

What can I do with what I got

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