Updates on the Geothermal System Install and learning curve

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GreenPowerManiac
GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
The last few months, have had a couple quotes that where totally asinine. First one tries to sell me the heat pump unit for $8500 and could get it shipped to my doorstep for $6k, a 5 ton unit. Lots of covered up fees. 2nd quote does the same thing except this time is outdated equipment that's been sitting in a warehouse for two years and can't get any parts if needed, another 5 ton unit. 3rd was getting better after told them covering up expenses in equipment is not my forte. They called after talking to a rep at WaterFurnace to get their asses in gear. The system proposed was a Synergy 3D, (4 ton unit to heat/cool 2400 sq ft home) which would work nicely with my radiant floor system already installed, but lacking a backup heat source when bitter cold and can't keep up with heating water and house at same time. They proposed 600' total of 2 wells closed loop antifreeze with bentonite grout filled. Their offer before labor was $20k, which would fit my budget of $30k easily; however, it's been a month or two without replies to my emails, voice messages and when I call the cell phone, the guy is always on a fishing trip, "Oh, I'll call you next week", BS. A 4 ton Synergy 3D costs about 10k and the drilling/grouting cost another 10k at that point.
The last quote, was told I needed a 6 ton unit to allow usage of BOTH forced air and water heating/radiant at same time, plus a backup electric heater within. At this point, wants me to do the trenching, since I have a backhoe and the electrical hookups, which can handle fine, and sub contract the drilling/grouting. Already know that 150' feet of well are required per ton, so 900' minimum. Considering just going with an even 1000'. No numbers yet; however, just adds to the confusion. The last two make more sense than the first couple quotes.

Just an update on where I'm at with this project. Lots of learning curves; however, better understand how things are working and installed. Any comments, please reply. Didn't know where to put this post, so likely will be directed elsewhere.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Updates on the Geothermal System Install and learning curve

    WOW! What an amazing runaround you're getting! Stunning!
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  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Updates on the Geothermal System Install and learning curve

    Yea, a little short supply of QUALIFIED installers these days. Most are good at selling used cars....Also asking questions on the Geothermal forums to get insight if I'm heading in the correct direction. Nothing gets done until ALL pieces of the puzzle fit perfectly.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #4
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    Re: Updates on the Geothermal System Install and learning curve

    What about air sourced heat pumps in your region? It seems that all in all, the newer air sourced units are not bad in colder weather--And in any case, saves you the whole (apparent) nightmare of burying a field of pipes/drilling and plumbing wells.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Updates on the Geothermal System Install and learning curve
    BB. wrote: »
    What about air sourced heat pumps in your region? It seems that all in all, the newer air sourced units are not bad in colder weather--And in any case, saves you the whole (apparent) nightmare of burying a field of pipes/drilling and plumbing wells.

    -Bill

    I have to agree, they may take a bit more power to operate but it will take a long time to recover all that drilling cost.
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Updates on the Geothermal System Install and learning curve

    Yup, modern inverter air-sourced is the way to go now. Between complexity (which increases the failure modes), cost/benefit, and the ability to zone room-by-room it only makes sense. Even if you just go with a multi-zone high-SEER whole-house heat pump you'll get more for your money for a similar efficiency.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Updates on the Geothermal System Install and learning curve

    Since you have a backhoe, why don,t you forget about drilling and do the slinky system? I thought about doing that but have a gas well that I heat my house for free. My daughter lives across the road from me and has the slinky system. The slinky system is a lot cheaper to do and you could probably do most of it yourself. The wetter area you have the better. You should be able to search on you tube to see how to make the slinky. solarvic
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  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Updates on the Geothermal System Install and learning curve

    I've considered the slinky loops, yet don't want to tare up my front yard with endless coils. The location of the house and loops is inadequate at best.

    Looking into ASHP's is similar to a hp conventional system yet in cold of winter, will definitely need a 15kw cooker inside for electric heat. Most lower end designs with Geo do this already, but the difference is the unit is all in one and inside in place of your furnace. Cost effective ?? The sacrifice is in electricity. Still fossil fuel coming from somewhere.

    The Synergy 3D uses a scroll compressor linked with geo closed loop lines to make EER ratings close to double the conventional and for up to 70% less electricity. It does 3 things: Heating (forced air), Hydronic for hot water and radiant floor), and cooling. With my many integrated systems, thinking this one would be worth the shot. My furnace (93% efficient) right now is going on 9 years old, LP fed. Looking at $1700 in 4 months of use, which by today's standard is still cheap. The neighbors are pulling double that or more with cheaply insulated homes. A new HE conventional unit could be around 10k for the same thing. Price for the Synergy 3D 6 ton is around 11-12k.
    Yes, the wells are expensive. Looking into the future, the wells will last my lifetime and the plastic lines too.
    I'd graciously do things myself if it wasn't for the manufacturer voiding the warranty for buying outright.
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  • LOTW
    LOTW Solar Expert Posts: 25 ✭
    #9
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    Re: Updates on the Geothermal System Install and learning curve
    GreenPowerManiac wrote: »
    I've considered the slinky loops, yet don't want to tare up my front yard with endless coils. The location of the house and loops is inadequate at best.

    Looking into ASHP's is similar to a hp conventional system yet in cold of winter, will definitely need a 15kw cooker inside for electric heat. Most lower end designs with Geo do this already, but the difference is the unit is all in one and inside in place of your furnace. Cost effective ?? The sacrifice is in electricity. Still fossil fuel coming from somewhere.

    The Synergy 3D uses a scroll compressor linked with geo closed loop lines to make EER ratings close to double the conventional and for up to 70% less electricity. It does 3 things: Heating (forced air), Hydronic for hot water and radiant floor), and cooling. With my many integrated systems, thinking this one would be worth the shot. My furnace (93% efficient) right now is going on 9 years old, LP fed. Looking at $1700 in 4 months of use, which by today's standard is still cheap. The neighbors are pulling double that or more with cheaply insulated homes. A new HE conventional unit could be around 10k for the same thing. Price for the Synergy 3D 6 ton is around 11-12k.
    Yes, the wells are expensive. Looking into the future, the wells will last my lifetime and the plastic lines too.
    I'd graciously do things myself if it wasn't for the manufacturer voiding the warranty for buying outright.

    Have a look at Northern Heat Pump, for a similar type unit to the Synergy 3D (combo forced air and hydronic), but may be slightly cheaper. If I could go back in time and do mine over, I would have used one. Well built.
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  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Updates on the Geothermal System Install and learning curve

    Just wanted to say that any success at the Geo Forums was minimal. I've learned more about Geothermal from U guys than them !!

    Already started the learning process and have done the Manual J assessment with software to determine heat/cooling loads. Pretty much started buying the tools needed to complete the tasks.

    Again, time for an experiment on the chicken coop AC system. Old design ran off of garden hose @ 54 degrees inlet. New design will run a 150' linear field loop about 6-7' below ground, closed loop antifreeze integrated with the radiant floor lines already installed. The radiant I had set up as a diversion load from both my battery banks with D/C heating elements and pump. It works infrequently yet does when overages happen. Time to test and see if the system is self sustainable with the Geo portion and no garden hose line. Oh, and I'm running the garden hose through an old truck evap core with integrated induction fan in back. Crude, yet works good the old way.

    Get tired of rediculously high quotes for little work and can't even answer my questions. They've all run with their tails between their legs.
    Why should anyone have to pay an engineer $1500 for a design that their 10 year old kid can do in 15 minutes ?? Just being funny.....
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