Rank Amatuer looking for info

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Thinking PV in arizona would be a good idea i started reading. Now i realize just how much i dont know. My thought was to forgo putting in batteries and use a grid-tie (i just learned what to call it) system. I was toying with 2kw of panels (i dont know if this is a good idea or not, but it was a starting point). I see my electric utility has a rebate program stating $3/watt of installed capacity, one time rebate. Plus the state has a tax credit as well up to $1000. I have a typical 3br/2bth house. fridge, CF lighting in most places, gas heat, gas water, gas cooking, and of course a/c. The a/c in summer is my concern since it runs so much. Plus i have computers running constantly.

Is there a ballpark idea or way of figuring out what this would do for me? I like the idea of easing my dependency, and hopefully shaving some costs would be nice. Also the rebates if they pan out, would be a huge plus.

many thanks.

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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Rank Amatuer looking for info

    Dantell,

    Tell us more about two things:

    1) About where in AZ are you located? If possible, please pick a site from the following list.
    2) What's your typical monthly electrical energy consumption? Your monthly bill should indicate that you're being billed for a certain number of kWh.

    More later,
    Jim / crewzer
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
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    Re: Rank Amatuer looking for info

    Thanks for the reply, from that list i am in 23183. N. Central Phx.

    my monthly usage, doubles during summer pretty close. This month was 1354 kWh. From the graph on my last bill Dec-Apr are about half that, May/Jun ramp up, and Oct/Nov ramp down. So from this my summer peak is probably about 1800-1900 kWh, and the rest of the year is 8-900.

    i guess ballpark average is 1100-1200.

    One other thing i just realized, ive seen lots of suggestions for energy reduction practices. But, I havent seen any mention of insulation. I was thinking of adding that as well, any anecdotal evidence on how affective it is?

    thanks again.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Rank Amatuer looking for info

    dantell,
    insulation is very helpfull, but this goes with common sense as if you were to allow sun into your home the insulation could trap that heat in your home. if the windows have a infra red blocking layer to the glass then it's not so bad letting the sun shine in as it's not heating things up. buildings love to absorb the summer heat by being baked by the sun. the insulation does slow down the infiltration of this heat to the interior and thus allows a/c to run easier. insulation doesn't just apply to ceilings either as it would be needed in all of the walls and possibly in crawl spaces too.
    btw there is mention of insulation, but you have to start reading the section of energy use and conservation. know that insulation can hold heat in, as in winter time here in the north, but it can also keep heat out.
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Rank Amatuer looking for info

    Dantell,

    1) Assuming 1200 kWh/month, let’s make that 40 kWh/day net.
    2) Assuming 94% grid-intertie inverter efficiency and 85% PV module operational efficiency, that makes your gross daily energy requirement 40 / 94% x 85% = 50 kWh/day.
    3) Assuming an average of 6.5 hrs/day insolation in your location, you’ll need an array rated at 50 kWh/day / 6.5 hrs/day = 7,700 W STC.
    4) A 2,000 W array should be able to offset ~26% of your current average daily energy consumption.

    Insulation does indeed help redeuce home energy consumption. I cut my gas consumption for winter heat by 25% by installing R11 insulation between the crawlspace and my house’ main level and by increasing the attic insulation from ~R11 to ~R30. Looks like attic insulation in your area should be ~R38. See here for more info and guidance. Attic ventilation, either natural convection or mechanically assisted, also helps by expelling very hot air in the summer.

    It’s also worth investing in energy efficiency rather than in energy production. Low-cost initial steps include a smart thermostat and compact fluorescent (CF) bulbs. Home Depot sells a six-pak of 14 W ultra mini quick-start CF bulbs for $10. You can also plug all of your “wall wart” gadgets into one or two power strips and turn ‘em all off at night. Exterior lights can be converted to motion-sensor types, CF or LED.

    Other worthwhile considerations include energy efficient major appliances (fridge, washer, A/C), low-e windows, a solar water heater, solar light tubes in dark inside rooms, and even an LCD computer monitor to replace an old CRT energy hog.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
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    Re: Rank Amatuer looking for info

    Dantel,

    I need insulation too. I'm sure its a good idea. I'm in the middle of fixing some 60 year-old ductwork, or I'd have insulated by now. I think getting the ductwork, wiring, etc. the way you want it comes first, otherwise you'll be doing it laying in a bed of fiberglass  (which is a terrible itchy scratchy experience).

    Here's what I've found so far, for what its worth. You've probably found they use an "R" value as a measure of how good the insulation is. Bigger is better. The local power company here has incentive programs to encourage people to insulate to R19. You might check there. Companies I've talked to so far are recommending R30 or better. Once they have the crew and equipment out, its not expensive to blow in more fiberglass. Insulation looks like a reasonable expense to me, compared to the potential savings in the air conditioning bill. On the low end, I have a bid for $246 to blow it to R19.  (Minus power company incentive = $80 to me.) The same company will blow it to R30 for $142 to me. On the high end, a company has offered to blow it to R38 for $932.

    Meanwhile, I'm getting good savings with an attic fan, which you might also consider. I found a great one at Home Depot that runs on 12 volts, only uses 24 watts, and moves a lot of air. I also got one of those thermometers with a remote unit that shows the temperature somewhere else. I mounted the remote unit up in the attic. What I've seen is that during the hot part of the day, the attic can run around 125F while the house is at 80.  I think that's reason enough to insulate right there. (especially if there's only a piece of sheetrock between the two).  Another thing I've noticed is that running the fan all afternoon long does not significantly lower the temperature up there. I find it most effective to run it between about 5PM to 8 PM. The temp comes down, air conditioner quits running.

    Your mileage may vary, just a couple thoughts in case they're of use.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: Rank Amatuer looking for info

    I am not a believer in using government money to pay people to live--but, mother did not raise no dummy either. First, check out all of the tax breaks, rebates, and net metering laws for your state here first (can be worth many thousands of dollars--sometimes are available for insulation retrofits):

    http://www.dsireusa.org/

    Next, conservation is the first way to go... Insulation is great. Probaby the order I would invest my money is; ceiling/roof/attic insulation, double pane vinyl (not aluminum) windows/doors, walls, floor/crawl space. Ceiling and windows would be my first choice... Had a home that had very warm west facing bedrooms (1954 home with attic insulation only at the time--no other insulation) and in summer evenings they would be 10-15 degrees warmer than the outside air, and much hotter then the rest of the home. After replacing with double vinyl windows, those rooms were 10-15 degrees cooler than the out side are (and the same temp as the rest of the home). Plus, even though we did not have a problem with noise (other than the drummer that lived next door), the room was much quieter (low freeway drone).

    My current home, we changed the windows, insulated the exterior walls, ceilings and floors, double pane glass in doors, CPFL wherever I could (stripped the exterior lathe and plaster walls--real mess--you can blow-in insulation between studs for less mess--but also, usually, less coverage because of fire blocks, interior wiring, etc.).

    Next, to address, everything that uses electricity in your home. The big appliances like lighting (replace with Compact Floresent Lights, etc.) and Fridge/Freezer (especially those that are 10 years or more older--get rid of the old freezer in the garage if you don't need it). Those not only save you money the first time for the energy they use, but also the second time for not dumping heat into the rooms that the air conditioner must remove the heat from. New washer/drier can also save you energy too (my washer includes a delay timer that I can set to start after 6pm--I have net metering and power is cheaper outside the peak noon-6pm period Monday through Friday).

    I also installed a skylight in the center stairway in my home--provided lots of bright/cheerful light in the middle if an otherwise very dark area, plus I open to dump waste heat in evening/night. Also replaced my gas furnace with a new energy efficient model (had to replace anyway from water damage--now have very minor problems with condensation in my gas flue dripping in the garage--good problem I guess).

    For my self (and my wife), we have always been cheap--so read around (like Home Power Magazine) and found that people on solar (10 or so years ago), ran their homes on 100 kWhr/month or less. I knew that I would never actually meet that number, but it was something to aim for. So, I started turning off appliances/lights when the are not used. Placed power strips everywhere and turned off phantom/standby loads (VCR's, TV's, Cable Boxes, Laser printers, copiers, fax machine, computers, etc.). I could get my bill down to the 175 kWhr/month without too much pain doing this (summer, south of San Francisco, only a week or two a summer of 100 degree days--not the same as Phoenix).

    Get your self a Kill-A-Watt meter (or equivalent) and check all of your loads. And, pay attention to items that may run 24 hours per day (like computers). You may be supprised at how much power they suck. I use a small (now older) laptop computer for 95% of my computing--they use a whole lot less energy than a desktop machine (the average 300 watt PC desktop system 24 hours per day is 216 kWhrs/month). In my area, that is almost $25 a month. One PC running 24 hours per day is already over the total amount of power that I use in a month to run my entire home (2 adults, 2 kids, work at home, and home school, full set of appliances).

    You may have special things you may wish to do that can also help to save power... My old home had a hallway where I could hang a plastic sheet from a spring loaded shower curtain rod (keep heat--or in your case--cool in the bedrooms). Also, my wife loves to cook--I installed a very nice range hood to dump heat (and smoke) from gas stove outside instead of in the home (close kitchen door to house, open window--keep rest of home cool). For you, perhaps you can place your computer servers in a separate area and only cool those if they are above 90 degrees (cheaper to cool with AC) and even vent with outside air at night/morning. You could also vent to inside home during cool weather (just a 160 watt TV and some CPFL lights in my OK insulated bedroom can raise the temperature by 5-10 degrees in the evening).

    http://www.homepower.com/ Home Power Magazine
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009MDBU Kill-A-Watt Meter

    Lastly, your A/C... You should probably look at how your home is cooled with a couple contractors. As I understand, window units are the least efficient (but you can cool only certain rooms--if that fits your lifestyle). Central A/C is more efficient. Ground Source Heat Pump will be the best (assuming that you have the conditions that would allow you to install the ground heat exchanger). A ground source unit can approach a 50% energy savings for you over the standard A/C alternatives (of course, if you A/C system is older, you may wish to replace with new energy star system in any case).

    http://www.eere.energy.gov/femp/procurement/eep_groundsource_heatpumps.cfm

    Now you are probably ready for solar power...

    First, look at your lot, orientation, areas that you can place solar panels. If you do not have a good south facing area (+/- 30 degrees) and clear of trees/shade, you will be less than optimum candidate for solar. Also, look for neighboors near where your solar panels could be installed for potential shading issues (young tree that can grow tall and block your panels down the road). Shading is great in hot areas--except if you have installed expensive solar power collectors. Also, hot weather can significantly reduce your panel's output. Installing the panels free standing--or on racks pitched off a flat roof is a good thing--flat against a roof can reduce your output by 10%-20% (from what I have read).

    Next, look at your hot water/space heating needs. If they are electric, you probably would want to look at solar water/air heating first. Especially, if you have a swimming pool (also, if you have a pool, look at placing the pump on a timer and/or installing a two speed pump--run most of time on low speed, use pool cover to save heat and chlorine). Running solar heat for a pool is a no-brainer. Running solar hot water/heating should be much less expensive (better return on investment) than the same space used for solar electric (solar hot water / hot air panels are much more efficient at collecting energy than solar electric panels--cost much less and use much less space). My one warning is that solar hot water systems seem (to me) to need much more maintenance than solar electric systems (pumps, water tanks, plumbing, freezing/boiling issues).

    Now, you are finally ready to look at solar electric power. The rebates are nice (California (plus Feds) has them too).

    Others here can give you more information about the exact power generation that you can expect from your system, but they are not magic (close though...). I have a 20 panel / 3.0 kW peak system and should be generating close to 4,800 kWhrs per year. That is only 400 kWhr/month. Barely 1/3 of your average bill for a $20-$30,000 investment (w/o rebates).

    However, depending on your billing--even a 2-3 kW peak system can have a better return on your investment than a system able to supply your entire load.

    Here in California, we have a tiered rate system. For E-1 residential (standard flat rate billing), I only pay $0.114 per kWhr. However, at usages over 900 kWhr/month, I pay $.346 per kWhr. As an example, assuming 30 year life, my solar PV costs me ~$0.14-$0.17 per kWhr (my system is facing 25 degrees East of South, flat against the roof, with a little bit of shading--so you can do better). So, to shave those peak tiered prices can really be a great investment for solar PV panels.

    Another place you can save money if you get a larger array of panels is through net metering. You can use the utility as a battery for only a few dollars a month. If you generate more power than you use in one month, you can bank the energy (as a dollar power credit) for use in an another month (you either pay negative balance at the end of the plan year, or any credits are zeroed out--utility won't pay you). Check your area. For us, net metering and grid tied systems don't cost anything extra with the utility (although there are the contracts you will have to sign and have homeowners insurance).

    A possibility for savings for you may also include Time of Use metering... If you can reduce your power use during peak periods and/or you have grid tied solar, the split charges may credit you with more money during the peak period than off-peak. Again, for me, E-7 residential Time of Use--peak time is Noon to 6pm Mon-Fri. During the winter, the charges are not too far apart (PK: $0.11 ; off-PK: $0.09 per kWhr). Summer, the spread is much higher (PK: $0.29, off-PK: $0.09). However, at over 300% of baseline (900 kWhrs) the pricing is just punishing (PK: $0.51; off-PK: $0.30 per kWhr).

    Also, in California they are now doing a very unfair pricing trick (not clear in the Time of Use rate plans). If you generate net power (for example during the PEAK rate), they count those numbers against your base line -- which then charges you the higher tiered rates in your off PEAK rate. (it is hard to explain, but basically, they effectively penalize you for both consuming electricity and generating electricity through your meter). Has not hurt me yet--but others that have large net generating solar system during the day and heavy night time loads (like charging electric vehicles) are complaining bitterly.

    You probably are aware of 90% of what I have typed above--but I do try to be thorough (being an engineer and all).

    I remember visiting my Grandparents in Phoenix 40+ years ago and when you could still run a swamp cooler (probably too much landscaping/humidity now)--loved those trips from San Francisco through the desert to Phoenix every Easter week. Oh--the good old days. :-)

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset