aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

solar_dave · July 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

NorthGuy wrote: »

Prices are determined by supply and demand. The load-shifting service that they provide is very valuable. If not for them, you would need to buy, install and maintain batteries. Their service is better than batteries, so the wise thing for them would be to charge slightly more that you would pay for using batteries. That's what they would do if not for the government. And you would have to pay that or stop using this service. The government forces much lower prices, which cripples the electrical company and is beneficial for you. How can you see this as unfair?

Their inner workings of electric company shouldn't be of any concern. When you come to a grocery store you don't worry about their costs. You just buy, or you don't buy. Why should it be any different for the electric company?

The addition of a special charge for solar user that amounts to $600-1200 annually certainly is in the realm of battery/generator costs over a long term say 10-15 years. I am not saying don't charge but if you do charge take into account the amount of revenue you take in from my solar system as well. My neighbor may well be paying $0.254 kWh for my supplied power as a peak TOU rate, the utility does nothing but facilitate the connection at the transformer for that income. If there is a charge to facilitate the connection and all of the infrastructure, so be it, but it should be applied as a single line item for every user, solar or not. Then take into account how much real revenue that connection generates or costs for real transmission and generation.

This would raise the connection fees but should also lower the per kWh fees to be revenue neutral for the average users bill. And as a solar user I would pay more for the "battery" facility they provide. Now that is fair. The way the tariffs are now people that save kWh or generate kWh are costing them revenue, so they claim they can't support infrastructure. I say decouple infrastructure costs from the kWh costs and charge for the infrastructure equally for every residence.

I liken this to the deregulation of the phone companies, many providers for long distance allowed by the local company.

BTW the load shifting is not possible here anyway, on-peak generation is only good against on-peak usage, unlike California where they buy from you at one price and you buy back off-peak at a much lower price. I still buy off-peak power every month of the year. I do get to load shift on-peak from jan-may to consume in jun-sept but remember they sold that power once in the early months for full value with no real infrastructure or generation costs, I paid for that.

NorthGuy · July 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

solar_dave wrote: »

This would raise the connection fees but should also lower the per kWh fees to be revenue neutral for the average users bill. And as a solar user I would pay more for the "battery" facility they provide. Now that is fair. The way the tariffs are now people that save kWh or generate kWh are costing them revenue, so they claim they can't support infrastructure. I say decouple infrastructure costs from the kWh costs and charge for the infrastructure equally for every residence.

I liken this to the deregulation of the phone companies, many providers for long distance allowed by the local company.

They did this here. The "connection" fees were kept regulated in the city, but got self-regulated in rural areas. So they went way up. And even though you can buy electricity from an independent retailer, nothing you can do about "connection" fees. However the "per kWh" fee is low. I guess they keep kWh fee low so that other retailers couldn't compete.

Everybody hated this, but look ... this, sort of, working. It made off-grid solar a viable option for me.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Maybe because if you don't like the price at Safeway you can go across the street to Save On Foods but if you don't like what BC Hydro charges ... too bad.

There's no competition to BC Hydro because prices are low. If they were 10x times higher there would be an outburst of solar installations and distributed generations.

They collect PST and then use it to keep BC Hydro prices low. That stalls the process. Even if you go off-grid, you still pay your PST to keep other people's BC Hydro prices low. So, you pay twice. No wonder nobody goes solar. Your electricity looks cheap, but you still pay dear through PST, and choice is taken out of your hands.

Of course, when I travel through BC, I chip in too

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

NorthGuy wrote: »

There's no competition to BC Hydro because prices are low. If they were 10x times higher there would be an outburst of solar installations and distributed generations.

They collect PST and then use it to keep BC Hydro prices low. That stalls the process. Even if you go off-grid, you still pay your PST to keep other people's BC Hydro prices low. So, you pay twice. No wonder nobody goes solar. Your electricity looks cheap, but you still pay dear through PST, and choice is taken out of your hands.

Of course, when I travel through BC, I chip in too

If only it were that simple.

There's only one set of electric lines and self-generating infrastructure is expensive, so that limits distribution.

PST is more than just a subsidy of electricity. There's PST charged on the electric bill, for example.

Since it all gets lost in the sauce, it's a bit hard to tell what is subsidizing which. For example BC Hydro managed to sponsor the Winter Olympics (and that money was excluded in accounting of the government expenditure, which it should not have been).

Another example: we have a carbon tax here. It is supposed to be "revenue neutral", which is absurd because it costs money to administer the tax. Even so the fund now has a $30 million surplus.

Really good with financial management, aren't they? :roll:

Ian S · July 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

YehoshuaAgapao wrote: »

During air conditioner months, all power being sold by my inverter travels a couple breakers across the bus bar in the main panel and gets sucked up by the air conditioner. During swamp cooler months, power being sold rolls back my meter, but just goes to the neighbor's meter and into his air conditioner breaker. The transformer feeding my house feeds at least my house and the neighbor to my east. Not sure how many other houses it goes to. Could be all of park place section 7 for all I know. The entire south and east wall of my property has underground SRP power lines running near them, marked with 3 big red lines by Blue Stake.

There's more going on here than just some "fairness" issue. Coinciding with APS' announcement of their plan, we're now being bombarded with highly deceptive TV ads urging fairness but making out solar ratepayers to be essentially thieves robbing the unsuspecting ratepayers blind. The outfit behind the ads is 60plus, a shadowy Washington DC outfit with financial ties to the Koch brothers. Why exactly are they spending so much money here in this state? Or is APS funneling it to them on the sly? It's outrageous if they are. If APS' plan is implemented, it will kill residential solar and and screw any existing solar customer who want to sell their home (grandfathering is non-transferable).

YehoshuaAgapao · July 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

Ian S wrote: »

There's more going on here than just some "fairness" issue. Coinciding with APS' announcement of their plan, we're now being bombarded with highly deceptive TV ads urging fairness but making out solar ratepayers to be essentially thieves robbing the unsuspecting ratepayers blind. The outfit behind the ads is 60plus, a shadowy Washington DC outfit with financial ties to the Koch brothers. Why exactly are they spending so much money here in this state? Or is APS funneling it to them on the sly? It's outrageous if they are. If APS' plan is implemented, it will kill residential solar and and screw any existing solar customer who want to sell their home (grandfathering is non-transferable).

Yeah that's why I'm more in favor of curbing net metering rollover than have an additional $50-100 monthly service charge tacked on. Forcing people to sign over carbon credit rights for free (this is what you are doing for when you get your incentive/rebate) would be borderline. Fine now because carbon credits don't sell for much anymore, but what if cap n trade/tax passes federally or in AZ? A $10 fee flat would be reasonable if net metering rollover isn't touched (and APS's fiscal years are more rollover friendly than SRP's).

I think APS wants to do this because it appears they have met their legal distributed generation requirement and now want to snuff out any new solar. I would be worried about SRP following suit if APS gets this approved. SRP does have the community solar compatibility issue though. $24/mo + taxes per 1KW. Net-metered as if it were rooftop solar (I'm keeping my 4KW of community solar despite having the 6.48KW on my roof).

westbranch · September 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

Just continue this conversation here is a British article, a looooong read, and fairly complex writing, a bit hard to digest, but eye opening when you get to the end.

No wonder the utilities want to up the rates, if you agree with his thinking...

http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/Renewable%20Energy%20Limitations.pdf

solar_dave · September 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

Definitely an interesting read.

Really the issue with APS is that many people have committed to the implementation of solar with a cost structure "guaranteed" for a long term. I can understand the issues but APS can't put the costs back on the early adopters (Expo Facto). So in fact they grandfather existing solar, making the decision for the PUC an easier one. I suspect they won't get everything they want, as these elected officials need to temper their decisions against the perceived good Solar brings, but they will certainly get something out of them.

I am pretty glad to have hit the sweet spot of high utility rebates, Federal tax incentives and now the grandfathering of my power production to massively reduce my utility costs. Future implementers are not going to be so lucky. (or is it really luck or smart usage of the available programs).

Ian S · September 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

solar_dave wrote: »

So in fact they grandfather existing solar, making the decision for the PUC an easier one.

Well, you only get grandfathered as long as you own the house. Folks who leased will have a real albatross when they go to sell with a lease that sinks underwater as soon as the home changes hands.

Cariboocoot · September 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

One good thing about owning your solar: you can take it down and take it with you when you move from Arizona to some place sensible.

Ah; some place sensible. Let me know if you find out where that is. :roll:

MikeSus · October 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

solar_dave wrote: »

Definitely an interesting read.

Really the issue with APS is that many people have committed to the implementation of solar with a cost structure "guaranteed" for a long term. I can understand the issues but APS can't put the costs back on the early adopters (Expo Facto). So in fact they grandfather existing solar, making the decision for the PUC an easier one. I suspect they won't get everything they want, as these elected officials need to temper their decisions against the perceived good Solar brings, but they will certainly get something out of them.

I am pretty glad to have hit the sweet spot of high utility rebates, Federal tax incentives and now the grandfathering of my power production to massively reduce my utility costs. Future implementers are not going to be so lucky. (or is it really luck or smart usage of the available programs).

Keep seeing the talk about grandfathering but no one seems to have a clue what that means. (Have heard Oct 1 as deadline?). Thankfully I am "approved" just waiting on the City of Surprise to green tag my 11.5 kW plant. Once that happens this week hopefully we can request "commissioning"

solar_dave · October 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

MikeSus wrote: »

Keep seeing the talk about grandfathering but no one seems to have a clue what that means. (Have heard Oct 1 as deadline?). Thankfully I am "approved" just waiting on the City of Surprise to green tag my 11.5 kW plant. Once that happens this week hopefully we can request "commissioning"

AFAIK the Arizona Corporate Commission has not taken any action on the APS proposal.

Well I was wrong, They did get a decision on the EPR2 & EPR6 rate tariff changes on Jun 27, 2013.
The bulk of the change is documented here:
http://images.edocket.azcc.gov/docketpdf/0000146167.pdf

The new tarriff is here:
http://www.aps.com/library/rates/epr-6.pdf
and here:
http://www.aps.com/library/rates/epr-2.pdf

Essentially the buy back rate for end of year true up for on-peak generation went from $0.0659 kWh to $0.0289 kWh. About a 57% reduction in payout.

So it certainly looks like more and more one would be better off getting off TOU and getting back on tiered rates. I will have to do more research on the implications of making that change.

solar_dave · October 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

It looks like the major plan APS had to change net-metering has been shot down!

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/energy-inc/2013/10/acc-staff-shoots-down-aps-plans-for.html

SO as above the got something out of the ACC but not the biggie, as I predicted. It looks like the ACC is pushing this off till 2016 when APS can go for a rate change, at that time I would not be surprised they come up with some other scheme to get more $$$$ out of solar consumers.

solar_dave · October 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

Here is another kicker for Electric rates in AZ

Arizona Corporate Commission considering Deregulating Power Companies
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/central_phoenix/Arizona-Corporation-Commission-considering-deregulating-power-companies
http://azstarnet.com/business/local/arizona-corporation-commission-revisiting-issue-of-electric-competition/article_550395c9-ae53-551d-b827-1dd33ee33bfd.html

Now the door closes
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/energy-inc/2013/09/arizona-corporation-commission-shuts.html

Jburgess · October 2013

Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

solar_dave wrote: »

Essentially the buy back rate for end of year true up for on-peak generation went from $0.0659 kWh to $0.0289 kWh. About a 57% reduction in payout.

That would put them about the same as SRP rates at $0.0328, what they claim is their average cost from Palo Verde. The main difference being SRP true up is April 30, so no winter generation carries over into summer.

aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

Comments

Categories