New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

DanS26
DanS26 Solar Expert Posts: 266 ✭✭✭
These new SMA inverters have my interest. I've read their specs but still have a question.

A 5000TL-US inverter will have a built in 1500 watt secure power supply even thought the grid goes down. I understand it is a dedicated line. If I understand a 5000 watt inverter will have a an array sized approximately at 6500 DC watts (assuming a .77 derate DC to AC).

I'd like to see the power curve for that inverter on a grid down situation. A 6500 watt DC array could power 1500 AC watts for a long time. I've seen many posters saying that the 1500 watts would only be available for 2 to 3 hours a day, but this seems to be underestimating the availability of the 1500 watts AC power. It seems to me on a sunny day the 1500 watts AC would be available for a substantially longer time frame, say 6 to 8 hours.
23.16kW Kyocera panels; 2 Fronius 7.5kW inverters; Nyle hot water; Steffes ETS; Great Lakes RO; Generac 10kW w/ATS, TED Pro System monitoring

Comments

  • David and Laura
    David and Laura Solar Expert Posts: 139
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    We have two 3000-TL inverters installed on our array, but as have not yet finished wiring everything in, we haven't been able to test the Secure Power Supply feature.

    From section five of the manual: (http://files.sma.de/dl/18726/SB3-5TLUS22-BA-en-11.pdf)

    The power available during secure power operation depends on the solar irradiation on the PV modules. Therefore, the power can fluctuate considerably depending on the weather or may not be available at all. In the event of solar irradiation being too low or overload of the socket-outlet, the voltage supply of the secure socket-outlet will also be interrupted.

    20 seconds after interruption, re-establishment of the voltage supply will be attempted automatically. This can lead to the inadvertent starting of the connected loads.

    This implies that as long as the solar irradiance (minus conversion inefficiency) is higher then the load, the secure power supply feature will be operational.
    House: 2x SMA SI 6048 w 24x 2V DEKA Unigy II; 2x SMA SB 3000TL-US w 24x Sharp ND-H235Q2
    Cabin: 1x Magnum MS4024 w 24x 2V DEKA Unigy II; 1x Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 w 6x Sharp ND-H235Q2; 1x 200 Watt Harris microhydro
    Intertie: 1x SMA WB 3800; 1x Lambda GEN-600 DC Supply; 2x PSL pQube
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,746 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    An east and west array or a tracker would power a South west US household from 7 am until 7pm at this time of year. As long as the TL can handle a refrigerator surge this will be the answer for a lot of rural, hurricane folks, fire evacs, or ?. I do not know how many times I have been told, why would I pay for solar if I could not use it in an outage during the day. For my business this is the best thing since the mini-split airconditioner/heater. NICE !
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • DanS26
    DanS26 Solar Expert Posts: 266 ✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    I think SMA is on to something here.

    This is a first generation product. The next generation will have significant improvements based on learning obtained.

    I could see a capacitor bank that could offset the cloud passing problem. Something like a UPS power supply. Don't know if that is feasible or not.

    If you are going to invest in a grid tied inverter anyhow, why not get this extra capability. The additional cost is negligible.
    23.16kW Kyocera panels; 2 Fronius 7.5kW inverters; Nyle hot water; Steffes ETS; Great Lakes RO; Generac 10kW w/ATS, TED Pro System monitoring
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    1500 w / 120v = 12.5A == < one standard house outlet
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    DanS26 wrote: »
    .... I could see a capacitor bank that could offset the cloud passing problem. ......

    Sure, if the capacitor bank is the size of a mini-van. Capacitors are not a magic solution.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • peakbagger
    peakbagger Solar Expert Posts: 341 ✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    My theory is plug a UPS into the outlet and then run the appliance off the UPS. Takes care of the cloud problem if (a big if) the UPS doesn't pull too much power when recharging.
  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    We have two 3000-TL inverters installed on our array, but as have not yet finished wiring everything in, we haven't been able to test the Secure Power Supply feature.

    From section five of the manual: (http://files.sma.de/dl/18726/SB3-5TLUS22-BA-en-11.pdf)

    The power available during secure power operation depends on the solar irradiation on the PV modules. Therefore, the power can fluctuate considerably depending on the weather or may not be available at all. In the event of solar irradiation being too low or overload of the socket-outlet, the voltage supply of the secure socket-outlet will also be interrupted.

    20 seconds after interruption, re-establishment of the voltage supply will be attempted automatically. This can lead to the inadvertent starting of the connected loads.

    This implies that as long as the solar irradiance (minus conversion inefficiency) is higher then the load, the secure power supply feature will be operational.

    he secure power supply that only works if the conditions are right does not sound very secure.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    Use the outlet to run a battery charger to keep up a bank for an off-grid inverter so you have power 24 hours a day for critical items like refrigerators. That's the only way it will work the way people are going to expect it to work.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    Does the SMA secure outlet provide power whenever the sun shines, or only when the sun shines and the grid is down? --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • SkiDoo55
    SkiDoo55 Solar Expert Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    Sounds like only when grid is down and Sun is shining. Requires manual attendance to turn it on. Requires manual attendance to reset to go back to grid.
    I would rather spend money on a hybrid inverter system that would transfer back and forth automatically if I needed power when grid was down.

    Still going to need night time backup power source or for loads that exceed the capacity of the single regulated outlet even with full sun on the panels.
    GT3.8 w/4600W Trina 230W, TX5000 w/5000W ET-250W, XW4024 w/1500W ET-250W, 4 L16, 5500W Gen. (never had to use) Yet!!
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    I haven't installed one of these yet, but have seen one at trade show. It is very limited to only working during outages, when the sun is good, and has to be manually activated and also switch whatever loads over to this outlet. If it trips off (overload or loss of sun) it has to be manually reset. However, during an event like Hurricane Sandy, this thing would have made a huge difference in neighborhoods that lost power for days or weeks. The main advantage of this feature that has me excited is just the ability to answer the "you mean this solar system you are trying to sell me doesn't work during an outage" objection many people have.
    SMA, because of the downturn in the German market, has turned its engineering attention to the USA and this and other improvements are the result. This outage capability is now a standard feature in their transformerless models and adds very little cost to the unit. (however requires quite a bit of extra costs in wiring up this extra outlet and switch and transfer relay if you want to have it ready to use)
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    SkiDoo55 wrote: »
    Sounds like only when grid is down and Sun is shining. Requires manual attendance to turn it on. Requires manual attendance to reset to go back to grid.
    I would rather spend money on a hybrid inverter system that would transfer back and forth automatically if I needed power when grid was down.
    I don't think that set and reset info is accurate, and that hybrid system would be a whole lot more expensive due to the batteries.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    In the event of solar irradiation being too low or overload of the socket-outlet, the voltage supply of the secure socket-outlet will also be interrupted.
    20 seconds after interruption, re-establishment of the voltage supply will be attempted automatically. This can lead to the inadvertent starting of the connected loads..
    solarix wrote: »
    If it trips off (overload or loss of sun) it has to be manually reset.

    Conflicting information! --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • SoleTrain
    SoleTrain Registered Users Posts: 3
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    Hello everyone, Greg Smith from SMA here to weigh in on this ground breaking inverter that was a big hit at Intersolar. Our booth was flooded with people who had the same questions I am reading in this thread. Our installation manual can be found on our website for this product and it has a lot of good information in it. Considering an inverter would normally provide 0W when the grid goes out, I think having up to 1500W when the sun is up and without the need for storage is pretty darn secure!

    I want to stress to everyone that the SPS is opportunity power. You can get up to 1500W at 120VAC when the sun is shining to power loads. There is no surge capacity and if you pull more than the SPS can provide the SPS will shut down and your loads will not be powered. Twenty seconds later the SPS will try to reengage the outlet and if the demand is below or equal to what the SPS can provide then it will reconnect. It will continue to try to reconnect every 20 seconds until the sun goes down.

    - I do not know where the 2-3 hour operational limitation came from but as DanS26 pointed out, as long as there is sufficient irradiation then you will get up to 12A from this socket when the sun is shining.

    - The SPS does take operator interaction to activate and turn off. When the grid goes down the homeowner will flip the switch on to activate the SPS power to a dedicated receptacle. When the grid comes back then they will turn the SPS switch off to resume sending power to the AC distribution panel. This manual operation was required by UL and differs from the automatic switching that is performed by our Sunny Island that automatically creates a micro grid when the grid goes down.

    - If the grid comes back during the day and the homeowner does not flip the SPS switch to the off position then the inverter will not feed to the grid. When the lights in the house come back on then the homeowner will go to the SPS and turn the switch off to resume normal PV operation.

    - If the grid outage continues into the night but then returns before the sun comes up then the inverter will automatically resume sending power to the grid in the morning if it senses grid voltage on L1 and L2. If the power goes out in this condition (the SPS switch left in the ON position) then the homeowner must cycle the switch from ON to OFF and then back on to start SPS operation.

    I have a solar array simulator that is used by many well-known solar testing authorities and I can adjust the weather conditions to see the effects on an inverter. I have been toying with the idea of creating a chart that would show how much available power the SPS could provide based on certain weather conditions but in the end I abandoned the idea since the homeowner cannot do anything about the weather to increase the output of the SPS anyway. The bottom line is that if you plug in a load that causes the SPS to trip then you must either reduce the load or wait for more sunshine. It is a self-correcting problem.

    We have a video that talks about the SPS on our website: http://goo.gl/OHNvJy

    Here is another SMA video that talks about the inverter: http://goo.gl/b7MIKJ
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    SoleTrain wrote: »
    This manual operation was required by UL and differs from the automatic switching that is performed by our Sunny Island that automatically creates a micro grid when the grid goes down.

    - If the grid comes back during the day and the homeowner does not flip the SPS switch to the off position then the inverter will not feed to the grid. When the lights in the house come back on then the homeowner will go to the SPS and turn the switch off to resume normal PV operation. http://goo.gl/OHNvJy

    Here is another SMA video that talks about the inverter: http://goo.gl/b7MIKJ

    Greg can you explain the why? of having the "ON" function having to be a MANUAL operation

    It only seems logical that even with a Manual ON, the OFF function could be automatic based on Grid power being present, ie the lights are on and nobody is home or asleep...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    Thank you Greg for the information.

    It is an interesting idea.

    For me, I was always hoping for some sort of DC battery charger function from a GT Inverter. Allows the sharing of the array with a battery bank (utility good, normal GT operation; utility fail, fail over to battery charging).

    Even if the charging is only 50% of the GT inverters AC capability--It would be really nice to run a small battery bank with a Inverter/Charger--Run a fridge and a few lights even on a 3.5 kWH array pretty easily and a few hundred AH at 24 volt (or equivalent) battery bank.

    Today, short of a transfer switch and separate high voltage MPPT charge controller (not cheap), the array is not really usable for off grid back (or a SunnyIsland or GT Inverter back feeding an Off Grid TSW inverter with some sort of charging control--still not "simple/inexpensive" to configure).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    In my experience, 9 times outta 10, when the weather is severe enough to take out utility power, there is little or no direct Sun, so what is the point? B.B.'s point is a lot more valid and would be more valuable.

    For our area, fast moving weather systems do not usually take out the grid. It is the more prolonged and protracted storms which cause the big outages.
    We have overcast skies for hours, sometimes days. On small glitches, power is usually restored before the Sun comes out.
  • Eric L
    Eric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    In my experience, 9 times outta 10, when the weather is severe enough to take out utility power, there is little or no direct Sun, so what is the point? B.B.'s point is a lot more valid and would be more valuable.

    Tropical cyclones at my location have left the grid down for days/weeks after they hit, but the sun can come back soon after, depending on how quickly the system is moving. So not unreasonable, IMO.
  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    Typical grid outage scenario where I live:

    Big winter storm - lots of snow/ice on trees. High winds as front passes - trees go down and take out power lines - then clear skies for several days.
  • SoleTrain
    SoleTrain Registered Users Posts: 3
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    bmet wrote: »
    In my experience, 9 times outta 10, when the weather is severe enough to take out utility power, there is little or no direct Sun, so what is the point? B.B.'s point is a lot more valid and would be more valuable.

    Many would disagree with you, bnet, especially the people we talked to at the recent CUNY event in New York City. After Sandy, there were parts of the NE left without power for weeks but plenty of sunlight in the wake of the storm. People with generators were soon scrambling to find fuel once the gas stations closed. A lot of the solar was still intact but because the grid was down the opportunity was wasted. There are some serious discussion about delving into existing rules and regulations to see what can be done.

    It appears that the biggest marketing challenge for SMA is to get people to understand that this new inverter is not a Sunny Island. It is opportunity power and has already proven itself in Japan where it was launched after Fukoshima. In fact, some type of SPS functionality from a PV inverter is now a grid requirement in Japan.

    Low light levels during and after a storm will still produce more than enough to keep a cell phone charged (25W) along with some other emergency equipment.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply

    I already have my emergency plan in place, the assumption I made is that my PV's would be compromised and I'd have to have a total separate system. This is interesting because you can do a heck of a lot charging with 12 amps ( 100 AMPS dc @ 12 V easy ). May have to re-think my plan a little. Flooding is a issue if you have a basement if the Inverter is down there. The last outage ( 2 weeks ) I had the city sewer backed up after the first day and ran me out, it was out of my control because they didn't turn the water off and the sewers wouldn't work. I now have a cut-off valve, but there lot's of stuff you can never plan for.
  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    SkiDoo55 wrote: »
    Sounds like only when grid is down and Sun is shining. Requires manual attendance to turn it on. Requires manual attendance to reset to go back to grid.
    I would rather spend money on a hybrid inverter system that would transfer back and forth automatically if I needed power when grid was down.

    That would be ideal - but many people do not have the money or space for the battery bank that would require. Also, a problem with a battery based inverter is that the batteries have to be replaced pretty regularly even if you're not seeing outages, and many people don't want to take on such a maintenance chore.

    The big benefit to this design approach, IMO, is that it is still 95% a grid interactive inverter. Since it will be used that way 99% of the time, that makes sense. The extra 1500 watts will be used rarely, and thus it still makes sense even if it is 'low quality' (i.e. not reliable) power. Unreliable power is a whole lot better than no power after a major storm/brush fire/disaster.

    If reliable power is your goal, then plug a $200 UPS into an outlet and keep it ready. If power goes out plug it into the inverter and you have reliable power 24/7 to keep the lights and radio on, and some unreliable power to keep your food cold during sunlight hours. Every 5-10 years replace the $200 UPS and you have a far cheaper solution than a dedicated battery bank.
  • jaggedben
    jaggedben Solar Expert Posts: 230 ✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    SkiDoo55 wrote: »
    - If the grid comes back during the day and the homeowner does not flip the SPS switch to the off position then the inverter will not feed to the grid. When the lights in the house come back on then the homeowner will go to the SPS and turn the switch off to resume normal PV operation.

    - If the grid outage continues into the night but then returns before the sun comes up then the inverter will automatically resume sending power to the grid in the morning if it senses grid voltage on L1 and L2. If the power goes out in this condition (the SPS switch left in the ON position) then the homeowner must cycle the switch from ON to OFF and then back on to start SPS operation.

    The second part of that is great. It means that you don't lose another day of grid-tied production just because you left the SPS on. Can I take it to mean that whenever the inverter starts up in the morning it will first check for the grid, then revert to the SPS if the SPS was previously turned on? That would be the best case scenario.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    jaggedben wrote: »
    The second part of that is great. It means that you don't lose another day of grid-tied production just because you left the SPS on. Can I take it to mean that whenever the inverter starts up in the morning it will first check for the grid, then revert to the SPS if the SPS was previously turned on? That would be the best case scenario.
    That is not clear from the documentation that I have seen.
    Based on what happens (SPS shutdown) when the load exceeds the available PV power, you may still have to toggle the switch off and back on again to resume SPS operation in the morning.

    New Answer:

    1. When the load exceeds the available SPS power but there is still enough power to operate the inverter itself in standby mode, it will try to resume SPS operation every 20 seconds.
    2. When the insolation is low enough that the inverter shuts down completely, you have to toggle the SPS switch to resume SPS mode. From the User's Manual:
    When the inverter disconnects itself due to insufficient irradiation,
    you have to switch back on the socket-outlet as soon as irradiation is sufficient.
    To me that means that you cannot just leave the switch on and have SPS start up in the morning if AC has not come back yet.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: New SMA Inverters - Secure Power Supply
    jaggedben wrote: »
    The second part of that is great. It means that you don't lose another day of grid-tied production just because you left the SPS on. Can I take it to mean that whenever the inverter starts up in the morning it will first check for the grid, then revert to the SPS if the SPS was previously turned on? That would be the best case scenario.
    I am fairly certain that's how it works. The switch is not itself controlling the power to the outlet, it is a "soft switch" that signals the inverter that something has changed. I went to an SMA clinic on this inverter, and I'm pretty sure they told us that the inverter controller logic starts up fresh every time the sun comes up and connects to the grid if it can irrespective of what you did with the switch the day before. That also means that the inverter will not power up the SPS automatically when the sun comes up if the grid is down; you have to hit the switch even if you left it "on" the day before.