Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering

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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #62
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering

    This is all true guys. I just wanted to point out, having experience with the XW-AGS on a real generator and using it for load support on an off-grid system that are some caveats with the XW system that requires a battery bank capable of delivering the goods in order to use it. The fixed five minute delay on Start Load is the big one. You can try to plan for lighter loads but all it takes is once and the power goes out because the bank couldn't take it for the five minutes it takes to bring the gen (grid) online to help and you'll be swearing at it.

    Putting light loads on a big inverter with 5 kW of solar behind it just doesn't make sense when you're trying to not use grid power. The inverter is capable, and the solar is capable of delivering the goods to prevent having to hook to the grid. Using the AGS is going to require the battery bank to be capable too. Using the Load Shaving and Grid Support features with Sell disabled (which I'm reasonably sure I could set up with 5 minutes of programming time at the SCP), I think, is a much more elegant solution because it doesn't require switching the grid on and off with a AGS and relay.

    Clif said he don't mind if it uses a little grid power (which it's going to do in Grid Support mode). He just wants to use his system to power his loads and minimize how much comes from the grid without selling electricity to them at 3 cents and buying it back for 12. I see that as completely doable with Grid Support and Load Shaving.
    --
    Chris
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  • Clif
    Clif Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭✭
    #63
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    BB. wrote: »
    Remember it also depends on your loads... For my home, the most I ever use is a couple KWatts peak (microwave, fridge+freezer, natural gas heat, etc.)... You have a 6+ kW capable AC inverter on a ~3kW capable battery bank. If your peak loads are 3kW or less (less than 6kW surge for well pump, etc.), then the smaller bank is OK for your needs.

    By the way, what was the size of your solar array (if you can setup your signature with your basic information, that would help).

    -Bill

    I have 24 230 watt BP panels.Other than my shop the big loads are the well pump, the water heater, the AC and the electric dryer. The well pump is a 1 HP submersible. It does irrigation or elese it could be smaller. The AC is a 2 compressor Trane with a seperate 1 1/2 ton and a 3 ton compressor. It runs 98% of the time on the 1 1/2 ton compressor to cool 2500 SF with very high ceilings. One problem is that with all the thermal mass of my ICF house more airconditioning is needed at night because after a 95degree day the heat is just starting to come through the walls about 9:00 PM. The air handler is varabile speed and usually runs so slow you have trouble hearing it. I think the solar would start and run the AC but with little left for other loads. I might put just the inside air handler on the inverter sub panel. The water heater will soon by solar with a timer on the electric backup. A $2000 well pump could save some energy but is hard to justify. My wife said that if I can get the fire ants to stop walking back and forth on the clothes line she would start using it again. So with a little more conservation my solar system should come close to metting my house loads. I was going to do a geothermal heat pump for the AC but the cost of the wells here is about $15,000. I figured I would get alot more bang for my buck with a high efficency AC and more solar for that kind of money. The shop is a different story. I have noticed that when I fire up the Miller 250 AMP welder that the smart meter displays a smily face. I had a meeting last night with the other 2 guys who got screwed by the utility and a lawyer. I don't see much chance of change coming from a utility that told me they don't need solar- they have all the generating capicity they need. About 25% of
    Florida that is not on investor owned utilities does not have net metering. Sad day in the sunshine state!
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #64
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering

    There so many things you can do, Some of the high amp stuff you can put lock-out's on. Like the pump, you could set it up so the A/C was the Master and Pump a slave where they would not be on at the same time. I have two A/C's that I have set like that, only one can cycle on at a time because of a 30 amp limit on the Inverter. It works great, I think I am the only one that knows it.
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  • Clif
    Clif Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭✭
    #65
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    I have some of my stuff on double throw breakers where I can move it from one source to another depending on the season. .

    I have been looking for some double throw breakers to do load managment. Where did you find what you are using? I am going to install anothr subpanel the can be transfered to be powered either by the main load panel or the inverter sub panel. I will put the rest of the small house loads on it. The irrigation system I am going to switch to the middle of the day with a possible shutoff in low solar conditions.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #66
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    Clif wrote: »
    I have been looking for some double throw breakers to do load managment. Where did you find what you are using? I am going to install anothr subpanel the can be transfered to be powered either by the main load panel or the inverter sub panel. I will put the rest of the small house loads on it. The irrigation system I am going to switch to the middle of the day with a possible shutoff in low solar conditions.
    I made my own panel with Marine breakers ( Blue Sea ). Midnight has all kinds of bypass breakers that NAWS carries with a lockout's on them. Any electrical supply should have them.

    You can get some ideas if you study these panels. I don't have any CODE to meet. I have a lot of stuff on Power cords so I can plug around from one source to the other.

    http://www.shop.pkys.com/Circuit-Breaker-Panels_c_35.html

    .
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #67
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    Clif wrote: »
    I have been looking for some double throw breakers to do load managment. Where did you find what you are using? I am going to install anothr subpanel the can be transfered to be powered either by the main load panel or the inverter sub panel. I will put the rest of the small house loads on it. The irrigation system I am going to switch to the middle of the day with a possible shutoff in low solar conditions.

    You can use one of the panels designed for use with generators.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #68
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering

    You can also build one using a SquareD QO LoadCenter with double pole breakers and a SquareD QO2DTI interlock. This is the generator AC bypass for our XW

    Attachment not found.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #69
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    You can also build one using a SquareD QO LoadCenter with double pole breakers and a SquareD QO2DTI interlock. This is the generator AC bypass for our XW

    This also has the sometimes useful feature that unlike a manual transfer switch, the interlock allow you to turn both off at the same time.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #70
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    inetdog wrote: »
    This also has the sometimes useful feature that unlike a manual transfer switch, the interlock allow you to turn both off at the same time.

    The only disadvantage is that it only allows switching two power sources to loads. The power sources go to the breaker terminals and the loads are connected to the bus lugs, or additional breakers on the buses. But it's economical too, plus meets all code requirements for break-before-make switching power sources like generators or inverters. A QO 100 amp box is $19, the breakers are $14 each and the QO2DTI is $22.
    --
    Chris
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #71
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    The only disadvantage is that it only allows switching two power sources to loads. The power sources go to the breaker terminals and the loads are connected to the bus lugs, or additional breakers on the buses. But it's economical too, plus meets all code requirements for break-before-make switching power sources like generators or inverters. A QO 100 amp box is $19, the breakers are $14 each and the QO2DTI is $22.
    --
    Chris

    You might like my own inexpensive "transfer switch" for our well pump.
    Two unfused (or fused) A/C disconnects of the plug type (up to 60 amp are easy to get). You pull out the jumper plug to disconnect, rotate it 180 degrees and put it back for storage in the off position, but we don't need that.
    Line side of one disco goes to generator, line side of other goes to POCO. Load sides are paralleled to the pump.
    But what do you do for a lockout, break-before-make, fool proof interlock?
    You throw away one of the plugs. (Actually I just hide it very well.) :-)
    Costs even less than your QO panel, but I end up with fuses instead of breakers. I don't mind that. And the principle extends to as many sources as you want to have.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • gridman
    gridman Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭
    #72
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    This is correct, and it's not a bug or a problem like some people think. I got our backup generator hooked to AC1 and am using the Grid Support function in the inverter with it. It works identical to Gen Support on AC2. It will only draw power from the grid if there's loads. It will draw power from the grid up to the setting you have it set at, then supplement from the batteries when the loads exceed the amp setting.

    I can't see how anybody can struggle with it. It's so simple that it really needs no explanation. It's doing exactly what you told it to do - support the grid with battery/inverter power at a certain load threshold. That's why it's called "Grid Support".
    --
    Chris


    Just got my solar panels hooked into my system 3 days ago. Now running in Grid Support - EIC mode. I'm not selling to the utility.

    You're right, Grid Support works great. My only complaint is that when I have plenty of solar power to cover the loads, it still uses 150w from the grid. Now, I've been a software developer for 30 years and if Xantrex would let me look at their software I could quickly fix that little annoyance.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #73
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    gridman wrote: »
    You're right, Grid Support works great. My only complaint is that when I have plenty of solar power to cover the loads, it still uses 150w from the grid. Now, I've been a software developer for 30 years and if Xantrex would let me look at their software I could quickly fix that little annoyance.

    I don't think that's a software issue. It's hardware, and just like Gen Support. In order for the inverter to support it, it has to draw a sample amount of power and leave the grid (or generator) online.

    Support mode for either grid or generator is what it says - support - meaning both are being used to power loads and the grid or generator is being supported when the battery voltage is above the setting. It is not a BX Mode like the old SW Plus's had. In either support mode the internal hardware in the XW that supplies power to loads from either AC input HAS to remain active or it won't work. Without it remaining active the hardware has to switch from a support mode to a transfer mode like the old SW Plus's did. And if you ever ran a SW Plus with a generator on the AC1 input, you know that when it made that switch you many times hit the gen with out-of-phase inductive loads that would sometimes stall it dead in its tracks, and on the good switches there was a "bump" in the power.
    --
    Chris
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  • gridman
    gridman Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭
    #74
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering

    Chris, what you say actually makes perfect sense. I figured it was a software issue, not hardware.

    My current system is a year old but I had a Trace SW4024 Pure Sine Wave for 15 years running in utility backup mode. It worked flawlessly until the day the inverter would no longer sync to the generator. Of course it happened right during a power outage. However, I had grid as AC1 and generator as AC2. Which is not what you're saying.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #75
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    gridman wrote: »
    However, I had grid as AC1 and generator as AC2. Which is not what you're saying.

    We ran our SW Plus's with one generator on AC1 and the other on AC2. AC2 was always smooth as silk. But AC1 wasn't. But if you remember in your SW, it had a BX (Battery Transfer) Mode. In that mode the system would run totally on renewable power until the voltage dropped to whatever you had it set at, then it would switch back to utility power. When we started up the backup and the SW saw "grid" power on AC1 it would sync with it, then switch over to gen power, taking all the load off the batteries. Many, many times the switch would go out of sync, which probably don't bother the grid, but it sure wreaks havoc on a small generator!

    The other thing the SW did was during it's battery backup mode (shutting the gen on AC1 off), the system HAD to be in float for it to make the switch seamlessly. If you didn't have the Charging Finish Stage (or whatever they called it) set to Float (meaning pulling constant power off the generator or grid), you'd get a glitch in the power when it made the switch.

    Those glitches in the Transfer Modes that the SW/SW Plus had are totally eliminated in the XW using Support Modes instead. But one of the caveats of a Support Mode is that it has to draw power from both sources in order to work. And that's a limitation of the hardware. 150 watts does seem a little excessive though. I don't think it takes that much to power the internals and keep the AC1 power source online and active. I'll have to measure that on our backup generator sometime to see if it does the same thing.
    --
    Chris
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #76
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    gridman wrote: »
    I figured it was a software issue, not hardware.

    The reason for this small feed from the grid is that it is needed to avoid feeding back to the grid. It takes some time to change inverter production. If a load suddently decreases, and the production is not changed fast enough, some power will be fed back to the grid. To avoid this, they maintain some margin, which results in a positive feed.

    To avoid this, the whole grid support thing would need to be dropped, grid completely disconnected, and loads run from batteries only. This is a mode that they don't have (they do during the Charger Block, but this cannot be easily used). Outback Radian has a mini-grid mode that does exactly that.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #77
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    Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    The reason for this small feed from the grid is that it is needed to avoid feeding back to the grid. It takes some time to change inverter production. If a load suddently decreases, and the production is not changed fast enough, some power will be fed back to the grid. To avoid this, they maintain some margin, which results in a positive feed.

    NorthGuy - the SW Plus, even though it does not have a "sell" feature, does exactly that. The SW Plus will also backfeed a generator in an attempt to control voltage from RE sources. These days, an inverter that does that with the new "smart" meters could get you in trouble with the utility, as they don't meet the latest UL specs for grid-tied and grid interactive inverters. However, the XW does meet the specs, and as you say it requires that token draw from the AC1 power source in order for the support function to work.
    --
    Chris
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