Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Surfpath · January 2013

For the time being I am running a generator based battery charging system using my Outback Flexpower1-6.

To date I have been running the genny only every 4-5 days. Basically starting with ~ 95% SOC on day 1 to, say, ~ 70% SOC on day 4/5. My power needs (for now) are very minimal. I am only using 20 watts of LED lights for a few hours at night, .

However, I find that my flexpower panel (ie the inverter) consumes 23-24 watts continuously, almost as much as my house use, even when we go to bed and I flip the AC out breaker on the flexpower panel (and/or the AC Main Breaker box in the house). I am pretty sure there are no draws at all on the inverter, but it does not seem to go into "search" mode - at least automatically.

On the specs for my Outback VFx3048: Idle Power ≈ 23 Watts, Search ≈ 6 Watts.

Any suggestions?

Surfpath · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

I think I found the quick answer, from the VFX manual:
Attachment not found.

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Quite right: The FX3048 will use roughly 24 Watts when running.

Got a MATE? You can push the buttons for the inverter and select "Search" instead of "On" or "Off". Then it will idle down to 6 Watts unless a load is present. Here's the thing; this function, like all other Outback functions, is programmable. You have a choice of search cycles (how often it tests for loads), duration (how long it looks for the load), and most important load level (how big a load is needed to trigger it). It's all in the manual. Somewhere. A bit like trying to find one paragraph out of the whole of War and Peace.

Surfpath · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

"A bit like trying to find one paragraph out of the whole of War and Peace"
Excellent analogy...with 9 Outback manuals I could start my own mini library.

Yes, I've now found the Mate "Search" section in the Outback Inverter tome.
I haven't read it all yet, but I did see that "The SEARCH mode is an automatic system which reduces the power consumption of the FX during periods of no power demand."

So, would have thought this would happen after a while (with no lights, or breakers flipped, or house panel off all night), but perhaps I need to program SEARCH to begin with (on the MATE).
Will try it out 2 nite.

inetdog · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Surfpath wrote: »

Yes, I've now found the Mate "Search" section in the Outback Inverter tome.
I haven't read it all yet, but I did see that "The SEARCH mode is an automatic system which reduces the power consumption of the FX during periods of no power demand."

So, would have thought this would happen after a while (with no lights, or breakers flipped, or house panel off all night), but perhaps I need to program SEARCH to begin with (on the MATE).

Yes, its action is automatic once enabled. There has to be a way to force constant output for low power devices that need it, and that behavior is the default mode. As was stated earlier, you can also tune the set points of the automatic behavior, things like search frequency and load threshold.

Surfpath · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

inetdog wrote: »

Yes, its action is automatic once enabled. There has to be a way to force constant output for low power devices that need it, and that behavior is the default mode. As was stated earlier, you can also tune the set points of the automatic behavior, things like search frequency and load threshold.

Nice, this step should save on battery power quite a bit.
[Aside: I wonder how it will work with motion detectors].
Anyway, will fiddle around and see if I can fine tune it.
-SP

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

The function has default programmed parameters which may/may not work for you.
Many other (lesser) inverters have "this is it; like it or lump it" parameters.

inetdog · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Surfpath wrote: »

[Aside: I wonder how it will work with motion detectors].
-SP

I have a couple of outdoor motion detector lights which are designed so that you can force them to constant on by turning on the wall switch for at least a few seconds and then turning the wall switch off for a second and back on again. That type of circuit might interact with the combination of the search feature and other loads being on then switched off by turning on the motion detector fixture and not having it turn off again until daylight. I doubt that the motion detector feature itself will work with only occasional short bursts of power.
The experiment will tell!
You could always externally change the mode from on to search after you expect that nobody will need the motion sensitive lights. If they are there for security, you would probably have to keep constant power to them.

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Chances are the detector circuits will not draw enough power even on the OB's lowest setting to keep the inverter on. This means the lights will be OFF no matter what. And if they do draw enough to keep the inverter on, then the inverter is on.

Whenever you have any amount of constant use load there is no point in using the Search mode.

mtdoc · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Does anyone know what the Outback "G" inverters draw when in they are in in "support, using AC" or pass through mode. In other words what do they draw when not inverting but simply monitoring grid AC input and passing it through until the grid fails and they need to invert? I would think this would be akin to a search mode and only draw 6 watts but I can't find any documentation of this.

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

I don't think the GFX has any equivalent to Search mode. Normal operation it is either in inverting mode or charging mode which means all the circuitry is active.

Search mode shuts down the main inverter circuitry, but fires it up "every so often" to test for a load. Without running the whole thing I don't think a GFX can monitor the grid, although I can see how it could be similar (testing for grid every so often, powering up if none is present).

The documentation is a bit wanting on this. I guess they assume running 24 Watts of inverter is not a problem if the grid is up, and would be necessary if it were down.

mtdoc · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Cariboocoot wrote: »

I don't think the GFX has any equivalent to Search mode. Normal operation it is either in inverting mode or charging mode which means all the circuitry is active.

Search mode shuts down the main inverter circuitry, but fires it up "every so often" to test for a load. Without running the whole thing I don't think a GFX can monitor the grid, although I can see how it could be similar (testing for grid every so often, powering up if none is present).

The documentation is a bit wanting on this. I guess they assume running 24 Watts of inverter is not a problem if the grid is up, and would be necessary if it were down.

You may be right but their Spec Sheet does list a search mode at 6 watts. I'll pose this question on the Outback forum and see if I get an asnwer.

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

mtdoc wrote: »

You may be right but their Spec Sheet does list a search mode at 6 watts. I'll pose this question on the Outback forum and see if I get an asnwer.

Makes me wonder how much of the spec sheet is just "carried over" from the off-grid FX. The two are nearly identical except for the ability to sync with the grid.

inetdog · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Chances are the detector circuits will not draw enough power even on the OB's lowest setting to keep the inverter on. This means the lights will be OFF no matter what. And if they do draw enough to keep the inverter on, then the inverter is on.

The interesting possibility, IMHO, is that the detector will not work but that the lights will automatically turn on and stay on when the inverter first enters search mode. (Assuming that the lights draw enough to keep the inverter on, that is.) Depends a lot on the design of the detector and the frequency of the search pulses.

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

inetdog wrote: »

The interesting possibility, IMHO, is that the detector will not work but that the lights will automatically turn on and stay on when the inverter first enters search mode. (Assuming that the lights draw enough to keep the inverter on, that is.) Depends a lot on the design of the detector and the frequency of the search pulses.

When (if) the lights come on they will draw enough to activate the inverter. If they then go off and the load drops below the threshold the inverter will shut down again. No output to the detection circuit so it won't function and the lights won't come on again.

There's no partial measures with these; either the load draw is enough to bring the inverter on-line or it isn't. When the inverter is not on-line there's no AC to power any loads.

What would be great would be if they could make a single inverter ramp up its power output (with corresponding step in self-consumption) the way a stacked set does.

Think how often it would be useful to run an inverter at <500 Watts (drawing like the little MS 300 does) and yet be able to kick up >1 kW to, say, start the refrigerator and then drop back low to run it.

I've tried mine in Search mode, but because of the long daytime loads and repeated refrigerator cycling (20 minutes out of every hour) the power saved wasn't enough to bother with. As such, about 480 Watt hours a day goes to "inverter overhead".

Surfpath · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

inetdog wrote: »

Yes, its action is automatic once enabled. There has to be a way to force constant output for low power devices that need it, and that behavior is the default mode. As was stated earlier, you can also tune the set points of the automatic behavior, things like search frequency and load threshold.

Well, I enabled and experimented with the search setting quite a bit and.....nada.

No blinking inverter light (indicating search mode is on).

What I did was adjust the search sensitivity such that it would take a larger load for the inverter to come on. The default was 6. I tried, 8, 10, 15, 23 (no change at any of these levels). I also experimented with the search pulse length a little. Again, no difference.

Even if I turn off all the mains breakers (which I usually do as habit - while we have been in generator charging mode), nada.

Que pasa amigos?

Can I force this mode to come on? Or, should I turn off the big DC breaker during the day when I am not at home, or at night before bedtime? (what a pain).

It's rather ironic. With my only draw (right now) being LED lighting, the inverter draws approx 24 watts x 24hrs a day, while I only use 24 watts of lights for 3 hours. Search mode would be a nice feature.

Surfpath · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

For reference
Attachment not found.

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

You're saying with the inverter set to Search it just stays on steadily? This is a GFX model?
Need to be clear here about what is happening.
As I said I don't think the GFX really has a Search mode as there would be no point.
With an FX model, enabling Search starts the LED blinking and if any load high enough is detected the inverter will turn On. Mine works this way, but I've found it to be a useless function in my application. I also do not believe motion detection circuits would be sufficient draw to turn it on, nor would there be any point in utilizing it here as without power to the lights they don't work and with power coming from the inverter (regardless of whether it is ON from search detection or just ON) means it draws its full current.

boB or Robin would know about this better than anyone.

Surfpath · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Cariboocoot wrote: »

You're saying with the inverter set to Search it just stays on steadily? This is a GFX model?
Need to be clear here about what is happening.
As I said I don't think the GFX really has a Search mode as there would be no point.
With an FX model, enabling Search starts the LED blinking and if any load high enough is detected the inverter will turn On. Mine works this way, but I've found it to be a useless function in my application. I also do not believe motion detection circuits would be sufficient draw to turn it on, nor would there be any point in utilizing it here as without power to the lights they don't work and with power coming from the inverter (regardless of whether it is ON from search detection or just ON) means it draws its full current.

boB or Robin would know about this better than anyone.

Per the OP, the model is a "VFX3048" (to be specific it's a VFX3048E - 'e' for export), mounted on a Flexpower panel in an off grid set up.

Yes, when search parameters have been set, even with all mains breakers off, it appears that the inverter does not enter SEARCH mode. Again (Disclaimer) I am a newbie, maybe I am neglecting something. However, the conditions seem to be fairly straightforward....SEARCH parameters set, no AC draws on/House AC mains off/AC breaker on the flexpower panel off, NO search mode green blinking light, anywhere.

By the way I have tried out all the variations of what I typed in bold above.
-SP

The motion detector light issue is just an aside. I'd be happy for SEARCH to work itself.

I believe the telltale for search mode is a blinking Green LED. There are no blinking green LED's.

vtmaps · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Surfpath wrote: »

I believe the telltale for search mode is a blinking Green LED. There are no blinking green LED's.

The blinking LED is on the Mate (not the inverter) if I recall correctly, and its a fairly slow blink. (my system is not in front of me now, so I can't check)

Here's a thought... Try pressing the button on the right side of the mate. That is a short cut to bring up the inverter "on-off-search" screen. Maybe you will get different results trying that rather than going through the setup menus.

--vtMaps

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Going over the obvious here.

Using the Inverter Hot Key on the MATE you can pick Inverter ON, OFF, or SEARCH.
Regardless of parameters set, if there is no load on the inverter and no AC IN present the inverter should go to Search and the INV LED blinks.

If this is not happening then the sense parameter may be set to zero (causes the inverter to be always on) or the inverter is somehow confused (disconnect all power, wait a few minutes, restart the inverter) or it is defective (extremely unlikely).

Really, beyond setting the inverter to Search mode and having the sense parameter above zero and no loads on the output (or AC on the IN) it should go to Search. That's all there is to it.

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

vtmaps wrote: »

The blinking LED is on the Mate (not the inverter) if I recall correctly, and its a fairly slow blink. (my system is not in front of me now, so I can't check)

This is correct.

Here's a thought... Try pressing the button on the right side of the mate. That is a short cut to bring up the inverter "on-off-search" screen. Maybe you will get different results trying that rather than going through the setup menus.

--vtMaps

That is how you turn Search on. You have to have the parameters set (there is a functional default set) and turn it on and have no loads to get it to work. Seems he's done this and it still isn't working.

Surfpath · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Cariboocoot wrote: »

That is how you turn Search on. You have to have the parameters set (there is a functional default set) and turn it on and have no loads to get it to work. Seems he's done this and it still isn't working.

Coot/VT,
My apologies........I am likely at fault.

Coot, I reread your earlier post about "you can push the buttons for the inverter and select "Search" instead of "On" or "Off". Then it will idle down to 6 Watts unless a load is present." I did not do that.

I simply replied that I found out how to set the parameters on the MATE Setup menu. I did not realize that once I set these SEARCH parameters I'd have to take another step.

I reread the more indepth MATE manual and this now seems obvious.

My bad, likely. I will try again tonight.

Since I also have a ton of LED interior lights and about 6 exterior motion detectors, I'll report back on how these lights work with SEARCH mode.

Once I actually turn the darned thing on. Duh.

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

Yeah, I find most things don't work if they're not turned on.

Surfpath · January 2013

Re: Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

So, the inverter hot key search was activated:p. I had to change the sensitivity to 2, such that a single (12w) LED light coming on would trip the inverter to ON. As expected, the motion detectors alone do not draw enough to start the FX up. I agree with Coot that if the security lights are on by themselves, after other loads are turned off, then once they turn off the inverter will go to SEARCH and not energize that circuit again.

Overall, glad to have found SEARCH. It will help. Thanks.

SPA · June 2019

@ Surfpath,

Hello and thanks for this informative thread. A few questions if I may:
1) Have you tried the scenario where "Search" mode is enabled and the fridge working too?
2) So when you are in "Search" mode if the fridge starts, will that trip the inverter ON?
3) And when it stops will the inverter go back to search mode?
4) How is the VFX3080 when it comes to (turbo?) fan noise and transformer humming? I'm trying to figure out if I need to place the VFX far enough from a bedroom and avoid having it in a room sharing a wall with any day to day living space? I was told that the transformer humming of certain inverters are so bad its better to have them in a shed.

Comments from other solar enthusiasts are welcomed!
Cheers
Seb

Estragon · June 2019

I have a very basic AC fridge, and my Outback 48v fx series inverters do go into search mode as expected when not needed by the fridge, and come on when then fridge cycles on. Obviously, other loads can prevent the inverters from going to sleep. Some modern fridges have features (eg. electronic controls, defrost) that can mess with the sleep/wake cycling of the inverter though.

The sound thing is pretty subjective, but I'd avoid having a biggish inverter in living space. My little 300w morningstar lived with us well, but I think the big Outbacks would be annoying if they were in the cabin. I have an autotransformer in living space, and don't find the hum a problem, but fan noise from the inverters would probably bug me.

FWIW.

SPA · June 2019

Hi Estragon,

Thanks for the confirmation. Could you possibly share your 240V Autoxformer brand? I might use that in my setup as well.
Cheers
Seb

Estragon · June 2019

It's an Outback. I have my inverters master/slave parallel stacked (120v), and the autotransformer powers a 240v submersible pump. If the inverters are going to be sleeping overnight, I turn it off. It's fairly quiet running, but makes a sort of "boing" noise starting, which the inverter search pulses trigger every few seconds.

wellbuilt · June 2019

If ou turn off the ac breakers the inverter is still making power , I have a out back flex power one vfxr3648a I turn my inverter search mode on in the mate , the screen reads on , off. , Search
if I Inable search mode and i am useing power nothing happens with the power .
‘If every thing is powered off the inverter led blinks when it’s in search mode .
If I turn my led lights on all so nothing happens , not enough power for the inverter to notice the draw.
If my lights switch is in the on position and my fridge kicks in , the inverter makes power to run the frig .
Some times the led lights will keep the inverter on when the fridge turns off ?
I have a bath fan in my 2 bath rooms that we turn on if we need lights at night .
I sleep with a C PAC at night so I don’t use search mode .
I use 10% of my power buy morning .
I have GC battery’s 430 AH
If you turn off ac power on the flex power one panel top left set of breakers you green inverter led will blink in the inverterwindow
When you draw power and the inverter is making power the led stays solid green .
In search mode in the winter I don’t sleep with my CPAC and it’s so cold we dont use the frig ,
I have led night lights 5 units that blink in search mode so we can see .

Searching for Search (mode): Outback Inverters

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