NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #32
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home
    inetdog wrote: »
    I find the combination of 2 inches of rain with nine-mile visibility interesting though.
    10 seems to be the max they list regardless of air quality.


    It's Trenton, NJ - even on a crystal clear day you'll never see more that 10 miles...:roll:
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #33
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

    visibility is not straight up, but out to the horizon. you can be totally overcast and have a 10mi visibility.
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  • Lee Dodge
    Lee Dodge Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭
    #34
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home
    niel wrote: »
    rainfall at 0.0 does not indicate if it was cloudy or not.

    Yep, we really need solar insolation data. Anybody in NY/NJ/CT area have that? Bill had stated "two weeks of bad weather," and bad weather sounded like rainy weather to me, which did not match my memory of what my kids were telling me and the pictures that they sent. If it was rainy, it did not produce much rain.

    Having grown up on the Texas coast, we used to say "a hurricane wrings all the water out of the atmosphere," and is followed by clear, sunny weather, at least near the coast. As the storms go inland, they slow down and can hang around much longer, as Sandy did. Seems like the power outages with hurricanes tend to be near the coast, so that would be where it would be nice to have a grid-tied PV system with emergency back-up during daylight hours, anyway. Save the food and the water pipes. Of course, people who build on barrier islands will be wiped out anyway, but Mother Nature will exact certain penalties for building in inappropriate places.
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #35
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home
    niel wrote: »
    visibility is not straight up, but out to the horizon. you can be totally overcast and have a 10mi visibility.

    Yep. And you can be in a city and have blue, sunny skies straight up but poor visibility on the horizon due to particulates, etc. How do I know this? I grew up in Los Angeles..
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #36
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

    Lee, I agree in concept as to applying ones mind to a differently phrased question.
    Just to add we should be looking at what South Africa did when the world collectively restricted trade with S.A. and the result was they found other forms of energy to use when there was no crude available... its all in the way we see things, as a PROBLEM or an OPPORTUNITY? The form of incentive or need makes the difference....sort of like going over the Fiscal Cliff....
     
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  • Lee Dodge
    Lee Dodge Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭
    #37
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home
    westbranch wrote: »
    Lee, I agree in concept as to applying ones mind to a differently phrased question.
    Just to add we should be looking at what South Africa did when the world collectively restricted trade with S.A. and the result was they found other forms of energy to use when there was no crude available... its all in the way we see things, as a PROBLEM or an OPPORTUNITY? The form of incentive or need makes the difference....sort of like going over the Fiscal Cliff....
    ...or all the great advances that the Germans did in WWII concerning gasification of wood and other materials to produce fuel gases to run vehicles. It would be nice to do the hard thinking without having to have a war to inspire the engineers/scientists.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,443 admin
    #38
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

    People did that with bio/alternative-diesel fuel... And got fined for bypassing road taxes.

    Today, no government organization would approve residential/automotive wood gasification in a major metropolitan area. Let alone cut down the trees (or open coal mines) to support gasification.

    For example:
    ...David Wetzel, a 79 yr old retired chemist from Decatur IL had been using recycled vegetable oil in his 1985 Volkswagen Golf diesel car for 7 years. This January, " the State of Illinois Dept. of Revenue sent 2 "special agents," Gary May and John Egan to his house. The two agents threatened the couple with felony charges and asked them to post a $2,500 bond!
    ...
    A couple of weeks later, David Wetzel received another letter from the revenue department, stating that he "must immediately stop operating as a special fuel supplier and receiver until you receive special fuel supplier and receiver licenses."
    This threatening letter stated that acting as a supplier and receiver without a license is a Class 3 felony. This class of felonies carries a penalty of up to five years in prison.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Lee Dodge
    Lee Dodge Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭
    #39
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

    Bill-

    Not suggesting that we should or should not be looking into gasification, but rather, that when countries are stressed by embargoes due to war or other causes, that solutions are sometimes found to produce whatever products are being restricted. So the solutions to problems are often possible, but, in the case of energy production, it would be nice to investigate the alternative without the war.

    It does sound like the Illinois Dept. of Revenue is being very heavy handed. Unfortunately, I think in the case of tax trials, you often cannot get a jury trial. I think a jury might be impressed with the 79-year old chemist's ingenuity. I would be.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #40
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

    It's yet another case that confirms what people already know about government. :roll:

    Since the man is producing and consuming this 'special fuel" himself, how did they even know about it? He's selling it to someone else? Not likely. Terms like "invasion of privacy" come to mind.

    I hope this case gets a lot of publicity. Might change a few things at the Illinois Department of Rip-off. A few new faces, perhaps.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #41
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home
    Lee Dodge wrote: »
    ...or all the great advances that the Germans did in WWII concerning gasification of wood and other materials to produce fuel gases to run vehicles. It would be nice to do the hard thinking without having to have a war to inspire the engineers/scientists.
    Engineers and scientists generally do not suffer from lack of inspiration. It often takes a war to open up the funding, though.
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  • Eric L
    Eric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    #42
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home
    Today, no government organization would approve residential/automotive wood gasification in a major metropolitan area. Let alone cut down the trees (or open coal mines) to support gasification.

    Not exactly the same, but Alabama allows for just one personal deduction for "renewables and efficiency". Here it is. :roll:
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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #43
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

    Most media live in a world of sound bites to promote their particular ideology. It is rare that the facts are well presented like here in this educated forum. When they are it is also rare the public will take the time to read and understand them. We live in a world of paper solutions.

    As an example here in the Southwest many believe water will continue to flow to irrigate new golf courses, wildcat developments with fountains and lawns and so on. In the near term it won't less and less at a price people will accept and in the long term, well. We are very good at kicking the can down the road for the next guy. I've got mine.

    Relying on the media and politicians heavily invested in ideology to set public policy continues to be a problem for PV in that the industry has been depending on them to build their businesses.

    Sure agree with the political will observation. On our ranch we live with a serious Border problem 24/7 which can be solved if there is political will to do so. But, politically, they won't do it. . .
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #44
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home
    BB. wrote: »

    ...David Wetzel, a 79 yr old retired chemist from Decatur IL had been using recycled vegetable oil in his 1985 Volkswagen Golf diesel car for 7 years. This January, " the State of Illinois Dept. of Revenue sent 2 "special agents," Gary May and John Egan to his house. The two agents threatened the couple with felony charges and asked them to post a $2,500 bond!
    ...
    A couple of weeks later, David Wetzel received another letter from the revenue department, stating that he "must immediately stop operating as a special fuel supplier and receiver until you receive special fuel supplier and receiver licenses."
    This threatening letter stated that acting as a supplier and receiver without a license is a Class 3 felony. This class of felonies carries a penalty of up to five years in prison.

    -Bill

    And now, as Paul Harvey used to say, "The other side of the story...."

    Mr. Wetzel was first contacted in January of 2007 and by May 2007 the Illinois state legislature passed a bill in record time letting him (and other home fuel producers) off the hook.
    Mr. Wetzel died earlier this year, but maybe his wife is still using the VW diesel.

    On the other hand, over on the Left Coast:

    Although the case provided a few nervous laughs, it also set the stage for other states that have yet to figure out how to deal with veggie burners on the roads. California, usually at the forefront of alternative energy schemes, currently charges an annual fee of $100, plus $75 for each vehicle running on cooking oil.

    It just happens that most states fund their road construction and maintenance (theoretically anyway) from fuel taxes. In practice the tax money seems to get hijacked to other purposes a lot.
    (By the way, Mr. Wezel was perfectly happy to pay the 20 cent per gallon fuel tax, and even sent a check, he just did not want to post a $2500 bond and go through all of the other paperwork.
    (He was not legally required to have the special business licenses demanded by the taxmen, but their system would not accept the tax money from him unless he had them.)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,443 admin
    #45
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

    That is the wonder of the bureaucracy... You can be compliant and yet still threatened with a class III felony because if you are compliant to one law (not needing a supplier/producer license) but because "they" where not setup to collect taxes from somebody that did not have the unneeded license he was out of compliance.

    Yes--Road taxes--They pass new ones in California every couple of years, then redirect the $$$ to other "needs" shortly there after. Rinse, Repeat.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #46
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

    Speaking of Nazi technology - there an article in the NY Times today about the companies building plants to produce liquid fuels from Nat Gas and the possibility of widespread use of the Fischer-Tropsch process to do this. LINK. Seems companies like Sasol and Shell are not waiting until the oil is all gone before ramping up the ability to do this.

    A few key quotes:
    Sasol, a chemical and synthetic fuels company based in South Africa, is converting natural gas to diesel fuel using a variation of a technology developed by German scientists in the 1920s.

    Performing such chemical wizardry is exceedingly costly. But executives at Sasol and a partner, Qatar’s state-owned oil company, are betting that natural gas, which is abundant here, will become the dominant global fuel source over the next 50 years, oil will become scarcer and more expensive and global demand for transport fuels will grow.

    Sasol executives say the company believes so strongly in the promise of this technology that this month, it announced plans to spend up to $14 billion to build the first gas-to-liquids plant in the United States, in Louisiana, supported by more than $2 billion in state incentives. A shale drilling boom in that region in the last five years has produced a glut of cheap gas, and the executives say Sasol can tap that supply to make diesel and other refined products at competitive prices.
    And environmental concerns exist. A 2008 Carnegie Mellon study estimated that plants in Qatar and Malaysia produced fuels that generated 20 to 25 percent more carbon emissions than conventional petroleum-based liquid fuels because the production process consumed so much energy.

    “We’re not talking about an environmental solution to the carbon problem,” said Simon Mui, a scientist at the Natural Resources Defense Council. “G.T.L. will likely make the problem worse, unless the industry adopts effective safeguards on drilling and additional pollution controls on these refineries. Those are big ifs.”


    As far as wood gasification. There's lots of people tinkering with this and at least one company, All Power Labs, selling production units with attached generator heads - in Berkeley, CA. LINK


    One way or another we'll have our power gosh darn't - whatever the consequences..:roll:
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #47
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home
    BB. wrote: »

    Yes--Road taxes--They pass new ones in California every couple of years, then redirect the $$$ to other "needs" shortly there after. Rinse, Repeat.

    -Bill

    My current favorite in that area is that without raising the tax rate at all, they enhanced the revenue from the property tax part of the vehicle license fees by retroactively declaring that cars did not depreciate in value from year to year. (But they are permitted to increase in value of course when they become Classics and are resold.)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • Lee Dodge
    Lee Dodge Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭
    #48
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home
    mtdoc wrote: »
    Speaking of Nazi technology - there an article in the NY Times today about the companies building plants to produce liquid fuels from Nat Gas and the possibility of widespread use of the Fischer-Tropsch process to do this.
    ...snip...
    I look at the Fischer-Tropsch gas-to-liquid process in a more favorable light than some of the comments in this article. I can remember traveling through east Texas at night as a kid and seeing huge flares with the heat felt miles away. I asked my dad what they were doing, and he said they were flaring off the natural gas to get to the more valuable oil. To make use of natural gas, you typically need a pipeline, and those are very expensive. I don't know that they massively flare gas in the U.S. any more, but overseas they certainly do. So the gas-to-liquid process offers some hope of making the natural gas into a useful fuel that can be transported cheaply compared to pipelines, rather than burning it at the well head and dumping the CO2 into the atmosphere without obtaining any useful work from it.

    In addition, the diesel fuel made by this process has a H/C ratio, making it burn with less soot formation and lower nitric oxide formation.
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #49
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

    Aside from the environmental concerns, the biggest drawback to the Fischer-Tropsch process as I understand it is the poor net energy returned. The Nazis, with no oil reserves, used it to convert coal to fuel in a desperate act during wartime to keep planes flying and tanks rolling. Going forward - as the remaining oil becomes more difficult and costly to extract - I find it depressing that as a planet we turn to processes such as these to keep our liquid fuels dependent energy hungry consumer society bumping along. Just like food crop based ethanol or using tar sands to get oil, using the Fischer-Tropsch process to turn nat gas (and likely eventually coal) into liquid fuels is an act of desperation. They all have a very poor energy returned on energy invested (in some cases negative return) and signal that we're no longer on the upslope of an energy hungry first world civilization. One way or another we'll be using less energy in the future...
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #50
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

    In the UK you can use up to 2500 litres of veg oil or home made biodiesel per year, over this amount and you have to pay 20p/litre road tax on it. Don't ask me how they enforce this.
    In europe more than half the cars are diesel and there are many companies and DIY'ers making biodiesel from new and used oil. Don't even think about going to the local fish and chips shop to scrounge some oil, because they're probably already selling it to someone.

    The consequence is that the price of cooking oil tracks the price of diesel to some degree. I spoke to a local oil recycling company the other day (they have containers all over the towns where restaurants can dump their used oil free of charge), they wanted 1 Euro/litre for filtered USED cooking oil. Diesel at the pump is 1.4 Euro/litre.
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  • Lee Dodge
    Lee Dodge Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭
    #51
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    Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home
    stephendv wrote: »
    ...snip...

    The consequence is that the price of cooking oil tracks the price of diesel to some degree. I spoke to a local oil recycling company the other day (they have containers all over the towns where restaurants can dump their used oil free of charge), they wanted 1 Euro/litre for filtered USED cooking oil. Diesel at the pump is 1.4 Euro/litre.

    That is interesting and encouraging that the price of used cooking oil is that high. Good that it is getting used rather than entering the waste stream.
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