Choosing a good generator

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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #212
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    Hi Bill.

    Peak 8,000 ft above me and Valley 1,000 ft below. Remote not for everyone but we're happy. Above ground, we ran everything through commercial grade electrical conduit for longevity. Stubbed in some extra lines for future needs.

    Cummins Onan did a case history on the genset located on the ranch. It's under case history download RS 20000.
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • 2twisty
    2twisty Solar Expert Posts: 199 ✭✭✭
    #213
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    How to pick the right genset?

    When I set up my system, I want to run off solar and battery 100% of the time if possible. I know that's not really realistic, so having a genset to back that up is a good idea. So, should I get a genset that is a real fuel sipper when not under load such as the Honda EU3000is, or one that runs full bore and will bulk charge and be done with it?

    The reason I keep second guessing the Honda is because it has a manual choke, and I want to set it up to auto-start from the inverter output. Unfortunately, if it's cold, I've been told that they don't always want to start without the choke.

    So, the other unit I"m considering is this one:

    http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Alternative-Energy-Solutions-Generators-Portable-Generators/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbmgqZ1z0z72a/R-100660521/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#customer_reviews

    Its diesel, which I like, and electric start, etc. It's much higher watt, as well, and far, far more affordable. The reviews I've seen seem to say that it runs for extended periods very well.

    What do you think? I'm less concerned about the wattage difference between the two, and more the price vs quality. I just wish that these portable generators used pressurized oil systems with filters. I can't seem to find one. I'd feel much better about a heavy duty setup if they did.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #214
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    You have to be a little careful here with generator like this. In the specs:

    Two 120 Volt 25 Amp outlets, one 120 Volt / 240 Volt 25 Amp outlet (twist lock)
    Rated frequency 60 Hz/Rated output 6.3 kw, rated voltage 120/240V/Max output 7.0 kw, rated current 19.2 AMP/Power factor 1.0
    Amperage (amps) 20 A
    Rated wattage continuous (watts) 6300
    Full load fuel consumption (gallons/hour) 2.0
    Fuel tank capacity (gallons) 4.0
    Run time at 50% load (hours/tank) 9
    Horsepower (hp) 9 hp

    Please do the math on some of this, such as rated amperage of 20 amps x 240 volts = 4.8 kVA

    And it's got a 9 hp engine, which is 6.7 kW shaft power at sea level. Ok, so with a rated output, according to the specs of 6300 watts, this thing is 94% efficient?

    Let's just say I'm immediately suspicious. There's a rule of thumb when it comes to buying generators - "you get what you pay for".
    --
    Chris
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #215
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    It has ALWAYS been my experience that ALL Hondas need choking to start under nearly all conditions. Gennies, pumps, stationary engines etc, all need choking.

    Tony
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  • 2twisty
    2twisty Solar Expert Posts: 199 ✭✭✭
    #216
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    Blech. I want something that I can count on to autostart when needed.

    Also, the math above is off. You calculated 20A at 240V=4.8kW.. According to the spec, it's 25A, which comes to 6kW.

    What do you think about the Yamaha or Subaru- powered gennies? Looking at the "RIDGID" brand from Home Depot. Needs to be electric start and auto choke. Turns out the diesel genny I quoted above has a manual RUN switch that has to be thrown to operate it, so that one's out.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #217
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    Re: Choosing a good generator
    2twisty wrote: »
    According to the spec, it's 25A, which comes to 6kW.

    No. Sorry. The specs say specifically "rated current 19.2 AMP/Power factor 1.0"

    I was giving it the benefit of the doubt by rounding numbers. 19.2 amp x 240 volt (assuming it has a decent enough field winding to actually maintain 240 volt under full rated load, which is unlikely) = 4,608 watts. Which at power factor 1.0 is 4.6 kVA.

    It is a Chinese generator and they buy the biggest sticker they can get from the lowest bidder to put on it, in the hopes the average consumer does not know the difference.
    --
    Chris
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #218
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    Avoid the big box store brand (and retailers) if you are looking for a long term reliable genny. Even thier big ones tend to be throw away types, which is why you don't see pressure lube, oil filters etc. As Chris said, you get what you pay for.

    Find a good industrial supplier, and work with him, or search the used market. Construction rental outlets often have surplus equipment that come on the market. I also scan Craigslist and Kijiji every now and again and see what is out there in my neighborhood.

    Tony
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  • 2twisty
    2twisty Solar Expert Posts: 199 ✭✭✭
    #219
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    fair enough.

    Next question: do I need an inverter generator? Will an OutBack 3524 clean up the power from the genny or just pass it directly though? I do have some electronics (computers) that I need to run, so I wouldn't want to cook them;.....
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #220
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    Re: Choosing a good generator
    2twisty wrote: »
    fair enough.

    Next question: do I need an inverter generator? Will an OutBack 3524 clean up the power from the genny or just pass it directly though? I do have some electronics (computers) that I need to run, so I wouldn't want to cook them;.....

    The Outback is not a continuous UPS. When it sense power at AC In loads are switched to that input and the inverter switches to charge mode. At that point the quality of the power on AC In is what the loads receive. The good news is that most gens put out good enough quality for anything, and the Outback's parameters can be set "tight" to drop the gen input if it is out of range (Voltage/frequency).
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #221
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    When AC is present, the Outback will just pass it through to the AC out terminals and use it to charge the batteries if needed with the internal Charge Controller.

    As Cariboocoot stated, if the genny output is low enough quality, it will simply ignore it and drive the AC output from the batteries. It will not use the generator output at all, not even for charging.

    One good reason to get an inverter generator instead.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #222
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    Another consideration - an Outback 3524 can only charge batteries at 80 amps, or 20 amps AC @ 120 volt input to the inverter/charger. If you don't need a bigger generator for pass-thru loads, running a 240 volt generator on a 3524 is a waste because you can only use half the generator windings unless you put an autotransformer on it. Using half the generator stator windings is not good for the generator.

    A suitable small 120V 20 amp generator is all that is needed on a 3524 to get full battery charging capacity out of it - assuming you don't need more than that for heavier pass-thru loads.
    --
    Chris
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #223
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    Which is why my FX3524 is backed up with a 1600 Watt Honda EU2000i: I only need 5AAC max for my batteries. :D
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #224
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    Re: Choosing a good generator
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Which is why my FX3524 is backed up with a 1600 Watt Honda EU2000i: I only need 5AAC max for my batteries. :D

    Well. I guess all I could really say about that is that I sure hope you got a backup plan if your Mate ever displays an alarming little tidbit of information like this on it :cool:

    Attachment not found.

    --
    Chris
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #225
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    Another option is one of the Honda's with a gas kit conversion. AFAIK, gas doesn't need choke to start. You don't absolutely need an inverter gen for clean output, I run some PCs on a normal generator with AVR (automatic voltage regulation), and they're fine. If you're ever going to need to run the generator for substantial amounts of time at 50% output or less, then an inverter gen would save you some fuel.
    With this cloudy weather we've been having these lasts few weeks, when I turn on the gen, I set the charger to EQ and then let it run at 80% output constantly until the batts touch the EQ voltage, then turn it off, the solar then does at least some of the absorb. An inverter gen would be wasted in this type of charging.
    But on the other hand with the bad weather that cariboocoot has up north, I believe he does a full charge including absorb using the generator, in which case an inverter gen comes in very handy.
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  • 2twisty
    2twisty Solar Expert Posts: 199 ✭✭✭
    #226
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    I will be going off grid in the desert east of el paso, tx. Altitude is about 3700.

    If the EU2000i had electric start and auto choke, I'd go for it. I want my genset to be double-duty: in its normal role, it will serve as backup to the solar system to charge the batteries or when I have unusually heavy loads. The other use is for portable power. I will be doing a lot of construction on my property and I will need portable power and a fair amount of it. So, rather than buy 2 gennies, I'd like to have one that does everything. Unfortunately, in order to get the features I want, I have to step WAY up in either price (for an inverter gen) or step up the capacity in an AVR gen.

    I still have not ruled out the idea of 2 gennies, but I'd rather use just one, so it gets enough use. The unit I'm considering at the moment that meets my needs in terms of specifications is this one:

    http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200484213_200484213

    Its rated output is WAAAAAY above what I'd need for charging using a 3524, so I'll either waste fuel operating at less than 50% load, or I'll just have to consider gen time to be "opportunity load time," just like when the panels are at peak and the batts are charged.

    However, while gathering the link above, I noticed this unit:

    http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200458019_200458019

    If only charging from the 120 coils of a 240v genny is bad, I have 2 options: 1: periodically switch the input to the 3524 from one leg to the other. 2: move up to a Magnum 4024PAE.

    Obviously, switching legs is cheaper, but requires me to remember to do it. The magnum costs about $300 more, but gives me 240v AC and 4kW. What do you think is the better choice?
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  • swmspam
    swmspam Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
    #227
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    I did some research on Champion Power by reading the owner's manual and finding the part number for the engine. It's a Chinese engine of unknown origin. Unless you figure out where it actually comes from, I wouldn't trust it as a long-term solution. It may work through a storm or two, won't output rated power for any appreciable time, and eat fuel like my boys eat pancakes on Saturday morning.

    Look at the baseline "economical" gennys from Honda. These are very nice and are sub-rated for "prime power" (continuous operation). That's very nice. They cost double than the $500 sets you found by Champion. If you don't want to spring for the Honda, try the Generac with the OHVI engine. Pay attention to the "I". The OHV types use cheap generic engines. You'll find the OHVI versions are more expensive, and start to bridge the price gap with the Honda models. So get the Honda. Running the Honda at low loads may crash fuel economy some, but not compared to what a generic Chinese engine will do to you.

    If your genny has split-phase AC (240V), using only one 120V leg is fine. You won't "wear it out", so periodically changing the connection isn't required.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #228
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    The one warning about using only one leg of a 120/240 VAC genset is that you are already limiting the genset to about 50% of its maximum capacity.

    There are some genset that allow you to use both legs in parallel at 120 VAC, or you can get a transformer and connect the 240 VAC to the input and use 120 (full rating) at output.

    -Billl
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #229
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    Re: Choosing a good generator
    swmspam wrote: »
    I did some research on Champion Power by reading the owner's manual and finding the part number for the engine. It's a Chinese engine of unknown origin. Unless you figure out where it actually comes from, I wouldn't trust it as a long-term solution.

    The engine is CPE - designed by Champion and built at their factory in China. They are actually quite good generators. I have tested various models and have a 46538 here for backup power. They are over-rated in that they will not deliver the advertised continuous power, but very few (outside of Honda, Yanmar, Kohler) will.

    The Champion engine itself is a Honda clone and very well built - even has cast iron rockers on a real rocker shaft, with tappet and pushrod rotators:

    Attachment not found.

    I have 1,512 hours on the 46538, every single one of them with the generator running at maximum capacity. Not a single problem with it.
    --
    Chris
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #230
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    Re: Choosing a good generator
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    .....

    I have 1,512 hours on the 46538,
    --
    Chris

    Chris what do you use for an Hour Meter? Is it hard wired or plugin? I have been thinking of something to put on my Eu3000is
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #231
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    It's built right in on the Champion. It has what is called an "IntelliGauge" on it. It shows voltage when you start it. Press the button once on it and it shows frequency, press it again and it shows hours on the generator. It's a REALLY nice feature on those generators.
    --
    Chris
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #232
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    especially for a low end machine... OK Honda wake up...

    Do you know of any aftermarket plug ins? other than my K-a-Watt.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #233
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    Re: Choosing a good generator
    westbranch wrote: »
    especially for a low end machine... OK Honda wake up...

    Do you know of any aftermarket plug ins? other than my K-a-Watt.

    There are aftermarket devices (~$20 maybe?) designed to attach to lawnmowers and other small engines. The just use a battery and have a sensing wire that goes next to any spark plug lead. That lets the device know when the engine is running without requiring any electrical connections. Not so good for a diesel though. :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #234
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    Re: Choosing a good generator
    westbranch wrote: »
    especially for a low end machine... OK Honda wake up...

    Do you know of any aftermarket plug ins? other than my K-a-Watt.

    Some riding lawnmowers like John Deere, and lots of older agricultural tractors (before the days of electronic instrument panels) have little rectangular hour meters that just run off the battery when ever the key on. One of those could be rigged up on an electric start genset without too much problems.

    The older Hondas used to have them. I got a ES6500 water cooled twin-cylinder Honda generator that I dragged out of the salvage yard and got running. It has an hour meter on it with numbers that roll by like a speedometer. Somebody threw that generator out and it only had 68 hours on it. I seen it laying in a pile of junk on its side. They sold it to me for $200. Absolutely nothing wrong with it other than the carb was plugged with old gas varnish and the tank was rusty inside so it wouldn't run.
    --
    Chris
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #235
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    HERE's an inexpensive one I've been thinking about getting for my Hondas. It does have a battery that's replaceable (battery included rated to 35,000 hours apparently..)


    Honda packages THESE ENM meters but they're more expensive and I believe have a battery that is difficult to replace.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #236
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    Grainier has a pretty good selection,

    Tony
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #237
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    thanks, started there and found this vibration meter, vibration "turns it on".... https://www.gdimeters.com/uploads/products/files/prod_tech_data_0005.pdf

    now to find it available in Canada
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • swmspam
    swmspam Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
    #238
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    Re: Choosing a good generator
    swmspam wrote: »
    I did some research on Champion Power by reading the owner's manual and finding the part number for the engine. It's a Chinese engine of unknown origin. Unless you figure out where it actually comes from, I wouldn't trust it as a long-term solution.
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    The engine is CPE - designed by Champion and built at their factory in China. They are actually quite good generators.

    Well, question answered. The key is "knowing where it comes from".
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #239
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    Champion Power Equipment is a US company and they own their manufacturing facility in China where their stuff is built. In low end generators, I consider them a step above the Generac GP-series with the Chinese OHV engines. Champion also provides excellent Customer Support for their products, far surpassing Generac and virtually any other brand you want to name. When you call Champion you get somebody on the phone that actually knows something and is not just a trained monkey.
    --
    Chris
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  • arby
    arby Solar Expert Posts: 107 ✭✭
    #240
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    Re: Choosing a good generator
    BB. wrote: »
    The one warning about using only one leg of a 120/240 VAC genset is that you are already limiting the genset to about 50% of its maximum capacity.

    There are some genset that allow you to use both legs in parallel at 120 VAC, or you can get a transformer and connect the 240 VAC to the input and use 120 (full rating) at output.

    -Billl

    Read every post on this genny subject tonight and finally hit on one that I have wondered about.
    I have a Honda EX 5500 (converted to propane) hooked up to an Xantrex SW5548. I found out somewhere that in 120 volt that I was only using one side of the 5500, making it really a 2750, and the factory settings on the inverter would trip the fuse in the genny and it seemed that I was not getting anywhere near the charging capacity that it should put out. I purchased for big bucks , a transformer to use the 240 volt plug, but I still can't seem to set the amps very high on the inverter. (25)
    On the trimetric it seems that the best amps have been close to 50 in bulk charge.
    Seems to me that the SW5548 is capable of a much higher charge rate.
    Is the genny too small or is there some setting that would give a higher charge rate.
    Thanks
    3310 watts panels, Classic 200 controller, 8 Surette S530's, Xantrex 5548 inverter, Honda EX5500 backup Genny.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #241
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    Re: Choosing a good generator

    Set your AC2 amp limit setting higher in the AC Inputs menu.
    --
    Chris
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