My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
Well folks, this is the third freezer conversion I've made and am providing some info here for those who may be interested.
The first was a small upright that I found to be a pain in the butt when it came to reaching down into the bottom layers to retrieve the milk etc. And even though I had installed shelves, things still got lost and forgotten in the bottom until it was too late. Thus the next, upright five point something cu ft, which worked great! However, after a year of struggling with its small size, comes the latest and hopefully last!
This one is a Sears 8 cu ft, Model 461-99192. And yes, I've modified the starter circuit so it will start and run off the Morningstar 300 inverter, but that's another story for a later time. Right now I want to share what I consider to be it's amazing electrical efficiency as a "fridge".
I've had it plugged into my Kill-A-Watt checking consumption, and 12 hours ago, reset the meter. Now, 12 hours later, it has consumed, get this: 0.12 Kwh! Yes this was overnight, but the door was opened a couple of times after resetting the Kill-A-Watt. I'll be keeping an eye on this for a few days, but so far, this is roughly where it's consumption seems to be heading. When I first did the conversion, it only ran for about a minute at a time, the thermostat I had was too sensitive, and since the compressor's consumption is higher during that first minute, (up to 200 watts after start, settling to 125 after one minute) the average consumption was at least twice what it is now that I've decreased the sensitivity of the thermostat so it runs roughly 5 minutes each cycle. It remains off between cycles, roughly 45 to 50 minutes or longer unless the door is opened. Haven't timed it exactly yet. By the way, trial and error has shown that the best value of start capacitor, for those who might use one (requires electrical modifications that will void warranty) is 74 MFD. This value is hard to come by, but critical if further converting to run off the SureSine 300, but for higher output inverters, or on grid operation, a standard 88 - 108 MFD will work wonders. BTW, the compressor model for these start capacitor values is: ASF51U6. The manufacturer may not be using the same compressor in all of these freezers, and different compressors may require a different value capacitor if you decide to do any modifications. As I've mentioned in other posts, converting to run off the SureSine 300 requires additional modifications to the starter, including the use of an autotransformer, or a regular 120 to 12 volt transformer rated roughly 100 VA and wired as an autotransformer, and relays to engage it during the start sequence. But that's not something for anyone not really familiar with electronics etc to attempt.
My main thing here, is to show the amazingly low (to me at least) power consumption of what is now an 8 cu ft fridge. 120 watt hours for a 12 hour period. That's an average of just 10 watts continuous! My satellite receiver uses more than that!
I'm on the run, so that's it for now.
Wayne
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Comments

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    that sounds real good wayne. inform us further on this in this thread so we don't have to jump around.

    i'm curious if you measured its consumption before conversion so we have and idea of the leap it made from one to the other.
  • Volvo FarmerVolvo Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    I want to know how you deal with condensation. To get a nice 36 degree temperature, the evaporator surely has to get down below freezing for a short period of time. The humidity in the box must be freezing on the coils, melting off, and running down the walls several times a day. Isn't there a puddle of water in the bottom after a period of time?

    Nice write up! I would be very interested in seeing long term (weeks?) KwHr numbers along with a notation of ambient temperatures.
  • wrdaiglewrdaigle Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    I have a 12cf chest freezer conversion. We definitely get condensation. I end up sponging it out about once a month, so it hasn't really been a problem.
  • wrdaiglewrdaigle Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    Wayne, is your latest an upright? I couldn't find any info on the model number you listed. I will be curious to see what your numbers are like over time. Our chest freeze conversion runs about 300 and change per day. I didn't think there was a chance of achieving this with an upright. Keep us posted.
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    Hmm. This seems like it would be way more cost efficient than a propane fridge even if you had to run a generator to recharge the batteries. Any idea how those numbers might compare?

    I'm thinking about a battery system charged only from a generator which powers a household, not one that only runs a fridge.

    -Alex
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,837 admin
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    It can be done...

    In Africa (and elsewhere, I am suer), there have been "hybrid" generator installations. During "off hours" (night, mornings), the generator is off and a battery bank + inverters supplies the loads. During evening when there are lots of loads (cooking, lighting, etc.), they fire up the genset and run the loads, plus recharge the battery bank.

    It really depends on your loads... If they are highly variable (mostly low with fridge/freezer during the day, and heavy loads in evening--cooking/washing/lighting/tv/computers/etc.), then a hybrid system may make a lot of sense.

    However, if your loads are steady (or heavy loads are more than 8-12 hours at a time), running a genset may make more sense (savings on battery banks + inverters + loses from charging battery bank, charge controllers, inverters vs fuel costs).

    Obviously, if you have solar panels in the mix--that changes the whole generator/fuel cost issues.

    From what I have seen, you almost have to make a model of your system (energy use, times, fuel usage/costs, battery replacement costs, etc.) and design several paper systems and see what shakes out.

    Even the amount of power used makes an issue in the gasoline vs diesel choices (there seem to be very few choices for less than 8-10kW power diesel gensets vs the 1-2kW gasoline inverter/generators out there).

    If your power use is low, and variable (weekend 2-3 season use vs 3+ season/full time occupation), the whole small genset, propane fridge, 100% solar solutions tend to favor a small 1-2kW genset and a battery bank + inverter/genset + a few solar panels for "quite time" power plus propane fridge.

    If you are 9+ months of the year with full time occupation, then solar+battery+inverter make good sense for an electrical fridge (plus backup genset).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    Hi again. Some answers to you're questions. Yes, I plan on keeping this thread updated for some time, updating those interested, as I gain experience with this one.
    This, as was the last one, an upright. Here is a link to this model: http://www.sears.ca/product/kenmore-md-82-cu-ft-upright-freezer/646-000088526-461_3_99192
    Re condensation: The chest freezer I converted did indeed have a condensation problem, and had to occasionally be sopped out. With my first upright, I kept the temp just above freezing, as I'm doing with this one, and believe it or not, had no condensation problem at all. How can that be you ask? Well it was a surprise to me too. Running the "fridge" that close to freezing results in all the condensation freezing on the bottom of the shelf nearest the top that I can place items on. This is the first shelf to col, and when used as a fridge, is the coldest of them all. There is one final "coil" on the ceiling, but it appears to be the last to cool, thus no ice there. I just now checked this one and sure enough, a bit of ice is appearing on the under side of the upper shelf. How did I handle that with the former one? When it needed to be "defrosted" I'd place a large, thick towel over the items directly under the iced up shelf, shut off the power, leave the door shut and wait 4 to 6 hours for the ice to melt, after which I just removed the now wet towel and turn the "fridge back on. How often? Depends on the time of year and how often the door is opened, or left ajar by accident. During winter, when the air is quite dry, I could easily go for a couple or more months. Summer is different with it's higher humidity, and I usually had to do it every 3 wks or so. Way more often if something interfered with the door completely closing and my not noticing it.
    One really, really important thing I've found about running the temp so close to freezing, is that totally unlike a regular fridge, food items last at least 4 times longer. Vegies etc, yes, even bread if I put it in there. That was a real eye opener for me. And if you want an ice cold drink of milk, an ice cold drink is what you get! Again, totally unlike a regular fridge, that will provide you with a cool drink. For these reasons alone, I'd never be happy with a regular fridge again.
    Re it's power consumption as a freezer, I haven't tried that of course, but the "certified" Energy Star rating is 328 kwh/year, (0.9 Kw/day) Again, when operated as a freezer.
    Just checked the Kill-A-Watt, and having run for 18.5 hours, it's showing 0.22 kwh, and the compressor has just shut off, so won't be going again for almost an hour, thus the average should be a bit less than the presently indicated average of 12.2 watts.If this holds, consumption will be less than 0.3 Kw/day. In fact, if I desensitize the thermostat further, so there are fewer starts, thus less time running at higher consumption, I can see this improving.
    Again I ask - - if I can convert a far better insulated freezer into a super efficient fridge, why, why, why doesn't a manufacturer make a real fridge this efficient? Are they being bribed by Big Energy to drag their heals?
    That's it for now. Will be glad to answer any questions I can. Share the wealth of knowledge as we continue learning.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,486 ✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    Off cycle-defrost refrigerators used to be everywhere in the 60's , but as people became lazy they disappeared from the market. The only ones I ever saw were uprights and had a non-defrosting freezer on the top. They had a second coil on the refrigerator compartment that had a perimeter pan and would defrost every cycle.

    I also remember that one company ( Kelvinator ), I think, made a heat pump model the would defrost on the run and sounded like a freight train with a reversing valve.
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.
    One really, really important thing I've found about running the temp so close to freezing, is that totally unlike a regular fridge, food items last at least 4 times longer. Vegies etc, yes, even bread if I put it in there. That was a real eye opener for me.

    That is also my experience. My fridge is a real fridge-freezer (not a converted freezer), but I have just turned the thermostat a bit lower and keep the temp in the fridge section near freezing. It consumes about 400 wattHours per day. --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    . My fridge is a real fridge-freezer (not a converted freezer), It consumes about 400 wattHours per day. --vtMaps
    Not bad at all for a real fridge/freezer. Especially when running it that cold, near freezing.
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.
    Hmm. This seems like it would be way more cost efficient than a propane fridge even if you had to run a generator to recharge the batteries. Any idea how those numbers might compare?

    I'm thinking about a battery system charged only from a generator which powers a household, not one that only runs a fridge.

    I think many ultra efficient electric fridges are more cost effective than propane fridges. As for the generator-battery-inverter household system, if you add a solar panel to the mix the batteries and inverter will be eligible for the 30% tax credits. --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Ralph DayRalph Day Solar Expert Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    Geez Wayne, you have a way of making my really efficient Woods all fridge look bad. 16cuft runs about .6kwhr per day.

    How do you live with an 8cu ft fridge? I have enough leftovers in mine to fill 8cu ft, then there's all the condiments, fresh veggies etc to fill up the rest of the room.

    Do you think you'll ever convert a "full sized" 16-18 cu foot freezer? Then you'd be in an average household size unit.

    (even when you combine your consumption for 2x8cu ft you're still below my consumption)

    Ralph
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    that's interesting as i don't see that model offered here in the states from sears and yet they have a us energy star rating for it to be sold in canada?:confused:
    i think i may drop the temp on the refrig part of my roper refrig/freezer combo and see how it does. i am noting that it shows 40 degrees f at the recommended temp position which is a 3 on a 1-5 scale. btw, i measured this via an infrared thermometer and it is usually off 2-3 degrees too low meaning my refrig section is definitely too warm. i also look at it this way that a lower temp there may be helpful in light of a brief outage as i will maintain a lower temp with the utilities active. if lowering it preserves the food better too then that could be seen as an added bonus.

    ralph,
    wayne does not need to worry about many others in the house, but i'm with you on the leftover thingy as it can be significant in addition to regular groceries as of yet untouched.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    Well it's official, after 24 hours, the Kill-A-Watt is showing o.28 Kwh, roughly 1/3 the 0.9 that the EnerGuide says it consumes as a freezer. That's an average of 11.67 watts, in more or less normal for me use.
    Well Ralph, I am indeed happy with it, and Niel is right, I only have Bella to share it with. She's my best friend, my companion, my shadow, and her legs are extremely hairy. All 4 of them. lol (Black Lab) But she can't get the door open :)
    Yes, I'm impressed! When I get a chance, I'll work on further desensitizing the thermostat for longer run times, and of course it follows, longer off times, less starts per day and we'll see what that does to consumption.
    Oh, and Niel, just looked at the big yellow Energyguide card and sure enough, in the top left corner, it says: "U.S. Government". Very interesting. And of course it's made in China.
  • dhsoladhsola Solar Expert Posts: 38
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    I've heard it said that turning the freezer compartment thermostat all the way up (colder) while reducing the temperature for the refrigerator compartment may reduce costs some. I dunno, when I tried it, I didn't have a kill-a-watt. Initially the veggies in the bottom bin got frost bit. After reducing the thermostat on the fridge further (warmer), the veggies didn't burn anymore but I noticed the ice cubes in the freezer were still frozen but not rock solid. Basically, this method just opens the opening between the freezer/fridge all the way..
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,837 admin
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    Watch freezer temperatures... It really is a good thing to keep temperatures below 0oF for long term storage:

    Question - Best Freezer Temperature


    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.
    BB. wrote: »
    Watch freezer temperatures... It really is a good thing to keep temperatures below 0oF for long term storage:

    Question - Best Freezer Temperature


    -Bill
    Very true, but unfortunately I've seen adverts for so-called high efficiency freezers aimed at off grid users, that use a much warmer testing temperature, more or less +15F. This is still below freezing, and is used to justify their statements of lower power consumption. Misleading advertising aimed at those not really familiar with proper long term food storage, and to whom it sounds reasonable. The results of using that higher temperature however, is a short storage life before quality of the food deteriorates to the point of being unusable for human consumption, unless of course you're starving.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,837 admin
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    And that was Wayne's thread he started from almost six years ago!

    My, how time flies when you are having fun. :D

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.
    BB. wrote: »
    And that was Wayne's thread he started from almost six years ago!

    My, how time flies when you are having fun. :D

    -Bill
    Haha And with help from you, Niel, and a whole lot more, not to mention trial and error experience, I've "come a long way baby", and we're still learning. :D:D
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    48 hour power consumption update

    Power consumption update.
    After 48 hours in operation, the Kill-A-Watt is showing a total of 0.42 Kwh has been consumed.
    Obviously it didn't run much during the night, bringing the average consumption down to 8.75 watts.
    This to me is rather stunning, and I'm VERY impressed!
    Obviously if one stands there with the door open, trying to decide if we're awake enough to make a decision on what to take out, or put in, it's quite capable of sucking back the power, but otherwise, it truly excels and I'm very pleased with that.
  • Ralph DayRalph Day Solar Expert Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    Re: 48 hour power consumption update

    Watch out Wayne...like the 100mpg carbs built in the 1960's (where the developers just dissapeared) you're treading on big power's toes;) If we don't see a post every other day we're coming to check on you!

    Ralph
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.
    BB. wrote: »
    Watch freezer temperatures... It really is a good thing to keep temperatures below 0oF for long term storage:

    Question - Best Freezer Temperature


    -Bill


    Ya it is true, our deep freeze we keep at -10F, the main fridge at 38F and its freezer at 0F. We use the deep freeze for long term storage stuff and the other freezer for more short term storage daily accessible items.

    Another good thing for long term storage is a food saver vacumn packaging to keep air off the food.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 48 hour power consumption update
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    Watch out Wayne...like the 100mpg carbs built in the 1960's (where the developers just dissapeared) you're treading on big power's toes;) If we don't see a post every other day we're coming to check on you!

    Ralph

    Hahahaha I laugh, but perhaps I shouldn't! lol
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 48 hour power consumption update
    Hahahaha I laugh, but perhaps I shouldn't! lol

    Oh Wayne, don't become fodder for those wacky conspiricy theorists!;)
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 48 hour power consumption update
    Oh Wayne, don't become fodder for those wacky conspiracy theorists!;)
    Well it seems I am risking it, aren't I. Haha
    This mornings consumption update, and I won't update further till I restart the Kill-A-Watt after further desensitization of the thermostat and let it run a few days, is:
    Running and in use now for 3 days and 3 nights, non stop, total consumption has been 730 watt hours. An average of just 10.14 watts, 24/7. Or just over 240 watt hours per 24 hour day. I'm happy, but the journey will continue, with more to learn. :D
  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭
    Re: 48 hour power consumption update
    Hahahaha I laugh, but perhaps I shouldn't! lol

    < insert emergency broadcast system warning tone here >

    Hey, where did Wayne go?
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • paulskirockspaulskirocks Solar Expert Posts: 84 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.
    And yes, I've modified the starter circuit so it will start and run off the Morningstar 300 inverter, but that's another story for a later time.

    As I've mentioned in other posts, converting to run off the SureSine 300 requires additional modifications to the starter, including the use of an autotransformer, or a regular 120 to 12 volt transformer rated roughly 100 VA and wired as an autotransformer, and relays to engage it during the start sequence. But that's not something for anyone not really familiar with electronics etc to attempt.

    I'm very interested in doing this and running a converted freezer on my Morningstar... Have you detailed your mods in another thread? I looked, but didn't find anything... Thanks
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    Hey "paulskirocks", Somewhere I did give extensive explanations, but can't find, so here goes again. Each of the half doz I've modified was done slightly differently. First off, you have to have a good understanding and ability with electrical etc. I'm not aware of anyone else having done this, but obviously it can be done.
    First off, the original equipment varistor starter must be removed and relaced with a relay controlled by a timer of some sort, to apply power to the start winding for a short time. This time has been different for each unit I've modified. The first ones were timed by a simple resistor/capacitor delaying the action of the relay. The last one uses a 555 timer IC and that works much better as a timer. Second, a start capacitor must be wired in series with the start winding. The value of that capacitor is VERY critical. Too big and the inverter is overloaded and shuts down, too small a value and the motor won't start. Each of the ones I did required a different value capacitor, as each motor was different. The values ranged from I think 200 MFD (was a few years ago), all the way down to 66 MFD if I remember right. I'm lucky I have a friend operating a motor repair business, and he loans me several different values, allowing me to try each to see which one works best. If the units were operating on grid, or a bigger inverter, the cap size wouldn't be so critical, but the TS-300 is being pushed to it's very limit with every start, resulting in a VERY fine line between getting the compressor up and running, and shutting down on overload.
    But you're not done yet! Each and every unit I've done, normally draws so much current on startup, even with these modifications, that the inverter shuts down before the compressor gets up to speed. The next step just barely takes care of that. You must use a transformer of some sort, I use autotransformers, rated for roughly 100 VA, that will drop the voltage from the inverter by roughly 10%, and in doing so, increase the available current to the motor by that same rough 10%. This is just enough, with all the other modifications, to get the motor up to speed, but as soon as it is up to speed, the starter relay must be timed exactly to kick out the start winding, and at the same time, switch over a DPDT relay which takes the transformer out of the circuit, and connect the now running motor, directly to the TS-300. It's not going to be easy, will take some frgging around and trial and error to get it working right, but it can be done, as I've said, I've already done it at east 6 times.
    Of course it goes without saying, that all these mods will void your warranty :D , and of course the CSA or UL approval. Hahaha
    But for me, it's perfect. Have had two freezers and a converted fridge running with these mods, all on TS-300 for 5 years now. No, they don't all run at once! The fridge has priority, so when it wants to run, it powers a relay that disconnects the other two units. When it's not running, the freezer in the basement is next, then finally, if neither of the first two are running, the freezer in the outside shop has it's chance. The "fridge" only runs an average of 5 minutes per hour, so there's lots of time for the other two.
    So there you go. That's the best I can describe it. Like I said, you'll have to be proficient in electrical and have access to all the things you need.
    To be perfectly honest, it would be a whole lot easier for you to just use a larger inverter, capable of starting and of course running your fridge, and have the thermostat control the on/off of the inverter so it's not running when it's not needed.
    That's a long write, so I think I'll copy and save for the next time someone asks. :p
  • paulskirockspaulskirocks Solar Expert Posts: 84 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.

    Thanks! Digesting all info...
  • pdxr13pdxr13 Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: My latest freezer converted to fridge showing VERY good results.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I think many ultra efficient electric fridges are more cost effective than propane fridges. --vtMaps

    Look for models with freakishly-thick 4"+ insulation, or even vacuum insulated panels ($$$!), top-load to keep the cold in, external coils that can be passively ducted to get the heat away, and power-efficient AND effective rocker-pumps for coolant. Sundanzer DCF225 and DCR225 (really the same unit sold as freezer and refer) are good spec'ing but too expensive (imho).

    Efficiency can be sold different ways. I look at Watt-hrs per cubic foot of useful interior, but the sales people will show absolute low power consumption in a cooler that will barely hold a gallon of milk. It's gotta be useful for real consumption patterns. I have a 4 cubic foot DC 12/24 Norcold on the back porch with an ice-cube making compartment, and it's big enough for daily/weekly use of 2 people. The freezer is a small top-loader at about 6 cubic feet (on grid power). Good enough and keeps the power bill reasonable.

    My real-world experience with propane refrigerator/freezer is that they work great! Highly reliable, settable, and the freezers get plenty-cold (like -17F after a while). Good ones cost a lot new, but used ones from RV's are cheap. Having a pair of smaller refrigerators is not a problem, esp. if they are "frosty" types that use less power and have less complexity to fail. Defrost one at a time while moving food and wiping out.

    If you have grid power available and some space, an extra big freezer is great to have as an OFF spare. We just have to be careful to not let useless extra stuff accumulate in it when it could be repacked into the smaller or given away. Opportunity to accept a big cooler of wrapped animal meat that exceeds the needs and storage of a hunter is a great thing. Moose is yummy!

    Nice thread. Watch out for your ideas being grabbed up and put on a corporate shelf as "unprofitable".

    Cheers.
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