Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

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johnT
johnT Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭✭
Hi everyone!

I am looking to set up an off-grid home in Belize. I am new to solar, but have been doing a lot of reading and research into it trying to determine what I am going to need. So what I would like is for the experts (you guys) to let me know if I am on the right track.

I am planning on using no more than 5 Kwhs a day. So, planning on a 24v system here is the basics of what I am looking to get:

5 - 315 watt Kyrocera panels totaling 1575 watts
3 - Rolls/Surrette 8-cs-25ps 820ah batteries

Some of my questions are:

Is this approximately the right amount of solar for my needs?
I am figuring the 820ah battery bank will give me about 2 days of autonomy...would that be right?
Is that enough solar to properly charge a battery bank that size?


My biggest concerns are of course for the batteries as they are the most costly and most likely to have problems if not properly maintained. I keep reading over and over that you should never take batteries below 50% DOD, and that the less you discharge them the longer they last. So, according to that logic you could size your battery bank so that you never take it below 10% DOD if you had the money, but would your solar panels be able to charge them properly? In my case, I arrived at the size of my battery bank by taking 5Kwhs*2 days*2 (for 50%DOD) divided by 24v=833. However, if I wanted to only do 20%DOD then I would need a little over 2000ahs...and my panels surely wouldn't charge that bank. So I guess my problem is where is the balance between having a large enough battery bank to not have to do a very deep DOD and having one too large for my panels? All of this is of course very possibly wrong and I wouldn't doubt it a bit, that's why I'm here :)

Thanks in advance for your time and patience.

Comments

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    welcome to the forum, I just read this:

    The Rolls Surrette 8CS25PS (8-CS-25PS / 8CS-25PS) is rated at 1156 amp Hrs. @100 Hr. rate. This battery is the 318 pound gorilla of the 8 volt Renewable Energy Arena.

    My battery is ~180# per 2v cell. I think you would do well to reconsider this particular cell....IMHO it is TOO heavy for a normal person, gorillas excepted...

    I recommend you post a bit more info re the loads so we get a good picture of what you are looking for. Others will have more questions.

    HTH
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system
    johnT wrote: »
    So, according to that logic you could size your battery bank so that you never take it below 10% DOD if you had the money,
    Welcome to the forum.
    Actually, constant shallow cycling (less than 10% DOD) is bad for flooded lead acid batteries (see the NAWS battery FAQ). I have no idea what type of solar insolation you have in Belize, but otherwise your system looks pretty well thought out.

    One thing of concern is that you have an odd number of panels. You must either wire them all in parallel or all in series. With an even number you can wire them in series/parallel. I don't know the specs on those panels, I don't know what controller you plan to use and I don't know how far the panels will be from the controller, so I can't really say much about how you will configure your panels.

    I think that rather than over building your battery capacity, you should use a generator to bulk up the batteries on those occasions when you find yourself approaching 70% SOC (30% DOD). Its never pleasant to have to run a generator, but its not pleasant to spend a fortune on batteries either.

    With an off-grid system you are committing yourself to constant vigilance (get a battery monitor) and constant maintenance of your batteries and their connections. Running a generator from time to time is just part of that constant vigilance.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system
    johnT wrote: »

    In my case, I arrived at the size of my battery bank by taking 5Kwhs*2 days*2 (for 50%DOD) divided by 24v=833. .

    There is a quick and dirty calculation used here that seems to be fairly accurate.

    Nameplate X Number of good sun hours per day, divided by 2 (approximate 50% system end-to-end loss). Your system may perform better or worse, but for a fast, realistic start, you can't beat it.

    Use the 'nameplate' total of your panels, in this case 1575 Watts. Multiply that times the number of 'good' sun hours available per day in your area, I am going to use 4 in this example, and divide that in half. (There is math to support the 50% calculated loss, but you would have to ask the Moderators to post it, I don't visit here enough to remember it).

    Your rough calculation would look like: 1575 (Total W) X 4 (good sun hours/day) Divided by 2 (50% end-to-end loss).
    1575 x 4 / 2 = 3150 Watts per day.

    If you know the specific battery you want to charge, then you can use its specs to divide the recommended charging rate into 3150. To keep it simple lets
    choose 10% charge rate. Your ideal storage would be 315Ah of battery. Generally speaking, their is a range from 5-13% that is allowable, but when you get into big name batteries, their requirements can be very exacting.

    I'm thinking 820Ah is well outside of the 5-13% range of your 3KW per day. If you really need to charge that much battery you need more panels.
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    Hi JohnT,

    The Kyo 315s appear to be 80-cell PVs, Vmp=39.8 V FWIW, so, vt has a good point, altho a MidNite Classic 250 could possibly make the grade regarding Voc in Belize with one series string, possibly.
    Kyo 315 DS:
    http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/wind-sun/KD315GX-LPB-specs.pdf

    And, wb, YES, as I read it, the 8CS25 is even heavier than I thought -- 424 Lbs/192 Kg, and this battery is only about 18.25 inches/464mm> so this combination of squatness and weight can make these batteries a bit difficult to move/place:
    http://rollsbattery.com/public/specsheets/8CS25P.pdf

    However, these batteries are not impossible to move and place with two people in good physical condition, but these two folks will not be lifing them out of a truck it they are at all like me.

    The taller Surrette 4KS25 is only 318 Lb, and at 24.75 inch height, it is easy for a single person to move and place these batteries, due to lower weight, and the inherent leverage available due the the height.

    Opinions, all opinions. Good Luck, John. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • johnT
    johnT Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    Hi westbranch,

    Thanks for the response. I do realize that the battery is going to be quite heavy, but I am actually still considering the possibility of getting a Crown industrial battery of similar amp hrs. That battery will weigh well over 1000 lbs if I go that route. I have plans for getting it loaded/unloaded if I go that route so the weight is an issue, but not a deciding one. Since I brought that up does anyone have thoughts on the Crown industrial vs. the Rolls 5000 series. Basically I am looking to buy a battery that if properly maintained will not need replaced for 15 yrs or more. Also you asked about the loads. Here is the bulk of what I plan to use...

    16 cubic ft energy star fridge. Haven't actually bought this yet but the one I am planning on getting claims less then 1 kwh per day.
    2 fans - 12hrs a day
    2 laptops
    150 watts of led lighting - 8hrs a day

    I am considering a washing machine...of course we would only use it during the day and only on sunny ones. Any thoughts about this working on this system? I am planning on having a back-up generator, so worst case scenario I would only use washer on the generator. But, if it is possible on the system then that is great as gas is currently over $6 a gallon there, so trying to plan on using the generator sparingly.

    Of course I'm sure there will be other small misc. things that get used, but that is main loads I am planning for.
  • johnT
    johnT Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    Hi vtMaps,

    You make a good point about the panels, and I will probably add another panel to make it work out better. That would give me 1890 watts and I'm sure I can use the extra for something:)

    So can I take from your post "I think that rather than over building your battery capacity, you should use a generator to bulk up the batteries on those occasions when you find yourself approaching 70% SOC (30% DOD)" that you think I am over sizing the battery bank? What would be a good amp hr capacity for the proposed panels in your opinion? Thanks for your input so far.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    John I think you are about right for battery to load of 5 kwh.

    Have a look at my analysis here, http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?14904-Evaluation-of-Usage-vs-PV-vs-Battery-needed,
    its very similar to your usage and battery but light on PV but I am in the middle of BC not Belize.

    look at the table with efficiency of inverter, etc, they add up in a hurry and de-rate your input to usable output...

    15 years is a lot to expect from a battery especially a 'learner' battery. I would look for something a bit ceaper to start on. Traction (forklift) battery?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • johnT
    johnT Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    Hi bmet,

    Wow, this is the first time I've run across the "approximate 50% end-to-end loss". So by this calculation I will need somewhere around 2500 watts of solar to get my 5kw hours per day? Although according to the insolation maps I've seen (if they are accurate) I am planning/hoping to average 5 good sun hours so that would bring it down to 2000 watts. And as vtmaps pointed out, I would be better off with an even number of panels, so now I am planning on 6 315 watt panels bringing my total to 1890. So that's getting close.

    But here's what I'm not understanding. Even at 1890 watts and figuring 5 hrs of good sun, according to your equation I would only be able to charge a 480Ah battery bank. And unless I am figuring wrong that only gives me roughly 1 day of power in my batteries. So, my question is this: Is there no way to have 2-3 days of battery power without having a bunch of extra solar that is only being used just to charge the batteries? I know these questions are probably really showing how little I know, but I am really trying to wrap my head around this before I jump in. Thanks again for your patience.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    In warm climates higher than 25* C temps will derate the PV output too.
    There is a temp adjustment coefficient for every panel... you can use it to estimate the panels output so you so not want to cut it too close...

    There is also 'Opportunity use' where you take advantage of PV output that is available when your batteries reach "Absorb". this is when the charge controller starts to 'back off' on how much energy is delivered to the battery to 'finish off' the last ~ 10% of the charge cycle.

    HTH
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    Hi JohnT,

    The quick calculation is just to give you a starting point, the number is based upon some math that I don't use every year. A forum moderator can give you the equation for proof, It boils down to adding up all the varied efficiencies of the devices included, such as solar panel's real-world output(80-85%), controller efficiency(87-97%), inverter efficiency, etc. This calculation provides a quick and conservative estimate.

    Another guesstimation is the battery bank. Let's say your standard Trojan T-105 prefers an OPTIMUM charge rate of 10%. Rolls-Surrettes may require 13%(tall batteries need to stir more electrolyte). Different battery chemistries may only need 5% charge rate. Go with what your chosen manufacturer publishes about their product, and that can help determine how much PV you need to charge them.

    As our moderators like to say, people often under-estimate how much PV they need, and over-estimate how much battery they can charge. Your system (as planned) will work..., for a while, but chronic undercharging of a 13% battery with a 4% rate will lead to premature failure. How often do you want to replace expensive batteries?
    johnT wrote: »
    Hi bmet,

    Wow, this is the first time I've run across the "approximate 50% end-to-end loss". So by this calculation I will need somewhere around 2500 watts of solar to get my 5kw hours per day? Although according to the insolation maps I've seen (if they are accurate) I am planning/hoping to average 5 good sun hours so that would bring it down to 2000 watts. And as vtmaps pointed out, I would be better off with an even number of panels, so now I am planning on 6 315 watt panels bringing my total to 1890. So that's getting close.

    But here's what I'm not understanding. Even at 1890 watts and figuring 5 hrs of good sun, according to your equation I would only be able to charge a 480Ah battery bank. And unless I am figuring wrong that only gives me roughly 1 day of power in my batteries. So, my question is this: Is there no way to have 2-3 days of battery power without having a bunch of extra solar that is only being used just to charge the batteries? I know these questions are probably really showing how little I know, but I am really trying to wrap my head around this before I jump in. Thanks again for your patience.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    Bmet has it about right about losses...:
    • 0.77 solar panel+controller losses * 0.80 flooded battery losses * 0.85 AC inverter losses = 0.52 end to end losses...

    Hot solar panels derate by around 0.82, charge controllers by 0.95 (0.77 overall). The battery may do as well as 0.90 (and AGM/Sealed batteries can be 0.90 to 0.98 ). AC inverter, depending on size and how much you use--Inverters have around 6-20 watts "standby losses"--so if your average loads are small, inverter efficiency goes down.

    Anyway, back to your needs. Say you want 5kWH per day (3.3 kWH per day would be nice if you can cut some power usage). Batteries are recommended for 1-3 days autonomy--Use 2 days for here. And 50% maximum discharge (for longer battery life):
    • 5,000 WH * 1/24 volt battery bank * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 2 days no sun * 1/0.50 max discharge = 980 AH @ 24 volt bank.

    Note that this is a fairly large battery bank--You might want to think about a 48 volt system. Depending on your array choices, you can get away with one MPPT charge controller at 48 volts vs upwards of two required for 4 volt bank (roughly 60-80 amp maximum per solar MPPT charge controller).

    Anyway, now two ways to calculate array size... One is based on the size of the battery bank. Looking for 5% to 13% rate of charge:
    • 980 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.05 rate of charge = 1,845 watt array minimum
    • 980 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 3,691 watt array "nominal"
    • 980 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.13 rate of charge = 4,798 watt maximum "cost effective" array

    Note that with AGM batteries, you can get down to 5% rate of charge--if not too deeply discharged.

    For Flooded Cell, better towards 10% or more. And Crown Forklift batteries, definitely towards 10% to 13% as forklift batteries, when they get old, have higher self discharge (towards 1%+ per day near end of life).

    And, we need to look at how big of array you need to power your 5kWH per day loads. Using PV Watts for Belize Intl Airport, with fixed array tilted to ~17 degrees:
    Month   Solar Radiation (kWh/m2/day)
    1      4.40 
    2      5.01 
    3      5.62 
    4      5.69 
    5      5.28 
    6      4.93 
    7      5.20 
    8      5.18 
    9      5.12 
    10      4.83 
    11      4.57 
    12      4.41 
    Year      5.02
    

    Because of location near equator and weather patterns, you appear to have very little seasonal variations. I will pick your minimum "average" Hours of noontime sun per day as 4.40 hours (January):
    • 5,000 WH * 1/0.52 system eff * 1/4.40 hours of sun = 2,185 Watt Array Minimum

    So between this calculation and the battery based array calculations, around 3,691 to 4,798 Watt array would be a good recommendation for a flooded cell/forklift based battery system.

    You could go down towards 2,185 watt array (based on hours of sun)--But this is an average number. You should not plan on using 100% of your "average" sun per day--Probably closer to 66-75% for "needed" loads (account for a few days of cloudy weather)... If you have a genset and fuel handy, you could cut down on the array size a bit (at the expense of added fuel costs).

    Power usage is a highly personal choice, and pretty difficult to know if this is your first installation/home/office off-grid setup.

    Your 150 Watts of LED lighting for 8 hours sounds on the high side (that would give me a suntan in my home)... If these include security lights, I would suggest installing motion sensor activated lights. Actually a bit better for security (lights turning on at night attract attention instead of lighting things you don't want stolen) and can save a bunch of power.

    Laptops, you can choose small guys that use ~15 watts, medium that take 30 watts, or high power engineering workstations that use upwards of 60 watts or more. Use a Kill-a-Watt meter, or similar, to figure out your needs (plus network, printer, modem, external monitors, etc.).

    Fans, any mechanical devices can really use power too... Measure those loads too. Anything that runs 10+ hours per day, even if using small wattage levels, still add up over time (i.e., your lighting+laptops can use more energy "WH/kWH" than a microwave oven or even your refrigerator).

    Anyway, hope this helps.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    JohnT, There have been many discussions here about battery size and quality. There is no definite answer.

    Suppose that a 900 AH bank would last you 10 years, but a 450 AH bank would last 6 years. Which is cheaper?
    Suppose that 900 AH of expensive batteries would last you 10 years, but 900 AH of cheap batteries would last you 5 years. Which is cheaper?

    Many of us think that we are better off with smaller and cheaper batteries. It depends somewhat on the situation. If you need to draw very high currents, you will need a certain minimum size bank that handle the draw. Also, a smaller bank requires more vigilance, and may require a bit more generator time. In an unattended system with critical loads (space craft, military applications, etc) it may make sense to buy premium batteries.

    The cheapest batteries are the ones that are mass produced: golf cart (GC) and L16s. One common mistake that people make when building a high AH bank with these cheap batteries is putting them in parallel.

    Take your situation. Four L16s in series at 24 volts will give you about 375 AH (depending on brand and model). If you put two strings in parallel you will have a 750 AH bank, which is a capacity that may work out OK for you.

    A much better solution would be to put those same 8 L16 batteries in series to make a 375 AH 48 volt system. The energy stored in 24 volt 750 AH is the same as 48 volt 375 AH.

    Good luck figuring it all out! --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • johnT
    johnT Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    Thanks to everyone for all of the great feedback. After considering all of the info presented I have come up with a different system...see what you guys think.

    48V system
    10 - 230 watt SolarWorld panels...2300 watt total (on a side note, does anyone have any thoughts on these panels? After doing a little research I came to the conclusion that they were solid panels for a very decent price on NAWS...$1.25 a watt, but if anyone has heard negatives about these I can still go with 8 of the Kyocera 315's...a little more pricey, but it would also give me another 220 watts.)
    8 - Surrette S-530's in series...400ah (I am hoping to get 8+ years out of these. Is that a realistic goal for a beginner? I realize that there is a good chance I will make a few mistakes, but I plan on being very diligent with battery monitoring)

    So again, if anyone has any thoughts or insights they would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time...
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system

    Off-grid planning reiteration time. :D

    You want to supply 5kW hours per day?
    On 48 Volts that's 104 Amp hours (not including system losses & consumption). At 50% DOD that's 208 Amp hour minimum battery bank. You are proposing 400 Amp hours which would keep DOD down to about 25% (keep in mind that some recharging will occur even on cloudy days and that some of the actual load power will be supplied 'directly' from panels during daylight after batteries are recharged). So far, so good.

    To recharge 400 Amp hours @ 48 Volts: 40 Amps of current * 48 Volts = 1920 Watts, plus derating = 2493 Watt array. You're proposing 2300 Watts of array. That would drop the current potential to about 37 Amps, or a 9% peak charge rate. Still good.

    Check this array size with the Icarus formula to see if it would yield the intended daily Watt hour needs:
    2300 * hours of good sun (4 minimum) * 0.52 over-all efficiency = 4784 AC Watt hours. That's just under your 5kW hour goal. Can you turn off some lights? :p Have you got more than 4 hours of sun? Can you add a couple more panels?

    By the "rules of thumb" your proposal looks workable. But remember loads usually go up, battery capacity does go down, and the sun does not always shine brightly.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Help wanted: Designing my off-grid system
    johnT wrote: »
    After considering all of the info presented I have come up with a different system...see what you guys think.

    Looks good to me, but please realize that I don't really know/understand your loads or insolation.

    There is still quite a bit to discuss.... inverter(s), controller, combiner, cables, fuses, battery monitor, etc. How will you mount your panels? Any shading issues? How far from panels to controller? What type of environment will the batteries be in (especially temperature)? What about backup generator? Permanently wired or portable? Auto or manual start?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i