Solar Lease Opinions?

solarix
solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
Of the three big solar lease companies, (SolarCity, Sungevity, SunRun), I'm wondering if anyone has tried them and have any conclusion as to the pros and cons?
So far I find that Sungevity is looks very good, but doesn't allow prepayment.
These companies seem to be sucking up all the utility incentives around here and we need to beat them or join them.

Comments

  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?

    I am currently doing a 5 year lease with $1 a watt up front one time payment and $99 residual. 3290 watts with Enphase inverters because of winter solstice shading. Last I knew these guys were offering a $0.50 a watt Sunny boy setup 20 year term, 3 options at lease end.

    Salt River Solar and claim to be taking the bulk of the APS incentives.
  • Juram
    Juram Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    solar_dave wrote: »
    I am currently doing a 5 year lease with $1 a watt up front one time payment and $99 residual. 3290 watts with Enphase inverters because of winter solstice shading. Last I knew these guys were offering a $0.50 a watt Sunny boy setup 20 year term, 3 options at lease end.

    Salt River Solar and claim to be taking the bulk of the APS incentives.


    No such thing as a 5 year lease. Its why Sungevity had to bump up to 20 years from 10. If they're telling you that, they're full of it. Then again apparently Salt River Solar thinks leasing is a bad idea now.

    http://saltriverenergy.com/why-solar/solar-leasing-is-it-the-right-move/



    I'm sure that has nothing to do with them being unable to offer a leasing program anymore though.................
  • Juram
    Juram Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    solarix wrote: »
    Of the three big solar lease companies, (SolarCity, Sungevity, SunRun), I'm wondering if anyone has tried them and have any conclusion as to the pros and cons?
    So far I find that Sungevity is looks very good, but doesn't allow prepayment.
    These companies seem to be sucking up all the utility incentives around here and we need to beat them or join them.


    I wouldn't go with either one of those. I'd talk to a SunPower dealer as that seems to be the best lease pricewise, they also happen to be offering some very high-end, premium modules.


    Plenty of options as far as SunPower goes, with companies like Sun Valley Solar, Perfect Power, Solar Topps and more all offering this lease.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    Juram wrote: »
    No such thing as a 5 year lease. Its why Sungevity had to bump up to 20 years from 10. If they're telling you that, they're full of it. Then again apparently Salt River Solar thinks leasing is a bad idea now.

    http://saltriverenergy.com/why-solar/solar-leasing-is-it-the-right-move/



    I'm sure that has nothing to do with them being unable to offer a leasing program anymore though.................

    I have the contract in hand, and the term was my choice and the minimum they can do with the fed tax laws.
  • Juram
    Juram Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    solar_dave wrote: »
    I have the contract in hand, and the term was my choice and the minimum they can do with the fed tax laws.



    That's fine and dandy but when they filled out the interconnect paperwork, they listed it as a 20 year lease. Legally, nobody can do anything less than a 20 year lease in Arizona. Don't believe me, contact APS and ask them their thoughts on it. Bottomline what they did and are claiming is a big no-no, but considering that the same company got sued by their former panel manufacturer because they were behind on payments by millions of dollars, it is altogether not too shocking.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    Juram wrote: »
    That's fine and dandy but when they filled out the interconnect paperwork, they listed it as a 20 year lease. Legally, nobody can do anything less than a 20 year lease in Arizona. Don't believe me, contact APS and ask them their thoughts on it. Bottomline what they did and are claiming is a big no-no, but considering that the same company got sued by their former panel manufacturer because they were behind on payments by millions of dollars, it is altogether not too shocking.

    I have the interconnect agreement as well, I will look at it in the morning.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?

    So they are using my existing interconnect agreement with APS. The only thing that will happen is I take ownership in 5 years but my interconnect agreement is still in force. I see nothing preventing this situation as this is an add to the existing interconnect.
  • Juram
    Juram Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    solar_dave wrote: »
    So they are using my existing interconnect agreement with APS. The only thing that will happen is I take ownership in 5 years but my interconnect agreement is still in force. I see nothing preventing this situation as this is an add to the existing interconnect.

    There might be financial repercussions for you down the road. SunPower had a similar buyout clause, then the IRS threw a fit and so they had to change it to fair market value as designated by an independent appraiser, otherwise the government could have come after them for the depreciated amounts. Now if they happened to go out of business, the government could turn around and look at the lessee as the beneficiary and demand the depreciated amount back from them if they had bought the system out for a set price.

    This is why operational leases have to involve fair market value as a buy-out price, not any set-specific amount, which is why no major leasing companies offer that sort of same-set buyout....its not all entirely legal. I would definitely contact a CPA for further information on this.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    Juram wrote: »
    There might be financial repercussions for you down the road. SunPower had a similar buyout clause, then the IRS threw a fit and so they had to change it to fair market value as designated by an independent appraiser, otherwise the government could have come after them for the depreciated amounts. Now if they happened to go out of business, the government could turn around and look at the lessee as the beneficiary and demand the depreciated amount back from them if they had bought the system out for a set price.

    This is why operational leases have to involve fair market value as a buy-out price, not any set-specific amount, which is why no major leasing companies offer that sort of same-set buyout....its not all entirely legal. I would definitely contact a CPA for further information on this.

    Think I will take my chances, the install is small and the risk is low IMHO.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?

    Solar dave. This sounds like the case of the glass bieing half empty or half full. I decided a while back to take some good advice but know that everyone has a different opinion and go with what you think will work for you. I did that in my own case as I was having one person telling me it wouldn,t work and another one tell me it worked for them. I understand you were trying to get enough solar to keep both volts charged. Probably if I win the lottery tonight I might get me a couple volts and a system put in just to charge them. :DSolarvic:D
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?

    Solarvic you hit the nail on the head. I really do think it is a low risk deal. Still waiting on permitting acceptance. Their time is pretty short, they are now 3 weeks out from commissioning or they lose the APS reservation. If that happens I may punt and look elsewhere.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?

    "Probably if I win the lottery tonight I might get me a couple volts and a system put in just to charge them. :DSolarvic:D"

    well, it looks like that didn't happen unless you bought those ticket in one of the 3 states a winning ticket was purchased in. i was wishing and hoping too.;)
  • NorTracNY
    NorTracNY Registered Users Posts: 13
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    solarix wrote: »
    Of the three big solar lease companies, (SolarCity, Sungevity, SunRun), I'm wondering if anyone has tried them and have any conclusion as to the pros and cons?
    So far I find that Sungevity is looks very good, but doesn't allow prepayment.
    These companies seem to be sucking up all the utility incentives around here and we need to beat them or join them.

    So, I've just signed a lease with SunPower. I wish I had joined the forum here earlier. I initially looked to purchase a system, but the payback was about 15years. The state incentive decreased and the payback got ever worse. The lease for 20years is half the price of the buy option. The risk also appears to be a lot less, as SunPower is responsible for the system and it's production over those 20 years.

    What are the odds the company is going to spend several thousand dollars to have a contractor come and take the system down in 20 years?
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?

    "What are the odds the company is going to spend several thousand dollars to have a contractor come and take the system down in 20 years?"

    now that's an interesting point. i'm not so sure they can legally take it down without putting something else comparable in its place. leases can only be broken if both parties agree or there are stipulations in the lease contract allowing outs for either party acting alone. that means you probably aren't allowed to take it down either just because you want to.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?

    Niel, I guess that NorTrac means that there is an option to buy the system after 20 years. What would its value be then? It might be worth less than the cost of decommissioning it. --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    niel wrote: »
    "What are the odds the company is going to spend several thousand dollars to have a contractor come and take the system down in 20 years?"

    now that's an interesting point. i'm not so sure they can legally take it down without putting something else comparable in its place. leases can only be broken if both parties agree or there are stipulations in the lease contract allowing outs for either party acting alone. that means you probably aren't allowed to take it down either just because you want to.

    The leases I looked at have usually 3 provisions at lease end, they remove it at their expense, they have a minimal residual and you own it, or they will sign a new lease with new equipment.
  • Juram
    Juram Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Niel, I guess that NorTrac means that there is an option to buy the system after 20 years. What would its value be then? It might be worth less than the cost of decommissioning it. --vtMaps


    Honestly it depends on what they can do with that system. If they can gain a sizeable tax writeoff by removing the system and donating it to charity or the third world, then they'll do that. I don't like to talk about the likelihood eitherway but yes, there is the possibility that they will leave the system "as is, where is", but no guarantees.
  • NorTracNY
    NorTracNY Registered Users Posts: 13
    Re: Solar Lease Opinions?
    Juram wrote: »
    Honestly it depends on what they can do with that system. If they can gain a sizeable tax writeoff by removing the system and donating it to charity or the third world, then they'll do that. I don't like to talk about the likelihood eitherway but yes, there is the possibility that they will leave the system "as is, where is", but no guarantees.

    Yes, at the end there are 3 options. 1) Renew a lease agreement 2) I buy it at an independently appraised value 3) I tell them to come get it at their cost. For option 3 it is expressly written that they have the option to say it's mine as is, with me responsible for any tax consequences.

    I also don't see anyone in NY buying anymore. With leasing the price for 20 years is half that of buying AND at year 7 you could buy it for just a few hundred dollars, so A LOT cheaper than buying at the beginning.