Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)

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  • The Only Sarge
    The Only Sarge Solar Expert Posts: 164 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #32
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)
    Urbandialect wrote: »
    Hmmm.. Maybe i'm doing something wrong, My cost per panel is low and the quality isn't that bad either.. i'm aways lurking on craigslist for good deals on tempered glass, my most recent find was 8 pieces of 12" x 66" and 1/3 inch thick of tempered glass for $6.00 a piece. fits 40 cells

    For the backing i use the $10. backing board from Lowes/Home depot. It's the same backer board the teachers use in school, the Dry easer board, the white side exposed to elements. One piece of backer board made the back for 4 panels.


    Then i buy 2 8foot 1/2 inch C channell or U channell, they are $8 a piece, roughly $17 for both. i cut it with a miter saw for the angels to fit plush around the panel. It takes 2 peices to make one panel. so that's $17 per panel.

    Solar cells? right now i'm using broken/chipped 3x6 cells that I won off ebay for $9. rated 1.8 watts at .5volts. after shipping the totally cost of cell was $19.02 I got 40 of them for that price.

    Then a couple of tubes of dow silicone, and a few inches of number 12 gauge wire. all that was under $15.00.

    Go look and see how much a 65-70 watt panel cost, My panels are coming in around 60 to 50 watts. So far i've built 4 but 2 are wired together because they both came in around 14 volts, I made the first 2 with only 36 cells, i've since started using all 40 cells.

    the panels i make I make to be weather proof, but i don't plan on mounting them. I'm also building a wooden stand on the side of my house to put them on, and i'll have a tarp i'll throw over it in bad weather and at night, but right now i'm pulling them in and out of the garage as needed.

    I see a few missing steps (encapsulants for one) but am happy for you. 60-70 watts is way too small for me to do anything with.
    Maybe I needed to be a bit more clear.....over 100 watt panels I found were not worth building.
    Tip of the hat to all the do it yourselfers out there though!;)
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #33
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)
    rollandelliott wrote: »
    Everyone knows commercial made panels have created fires too,

    Cite an example involving a properly installed quality panels. All the cases like this I know of involved fly-by-nigh panels or improper installs.
    seems like cherry picking facts instead of addressing why two panels made from the same materials would differ in performance was not addressed.

    One word: process.
    If panels really did allow moisture in and out through two pieces of laminated low-iron glass sealed to an aluminium frame with Sylgard (flammable) then all panels would suffer from internal moisture resulting in corrosion and ultimately failure. Since this happens rarely with commercial panels and frequently with homemade ones obviously it is the care taken with assembly under controlled conditions that make the difference. I mentioned that before, and was ignored. That's "cherry-picking facts", isn't it?
    the two people that replied to this thread trying to dIY are not even using an encapsulant, of course their panels are doomed to be poor performers,

    Absolutely agree. You clearly take more trouble with your building. That adds to the time of assembling, and to the cost (your labour has value).
    but that's not my point, you can make them correctly and they will last and be cheaper if you are doing the smaller panels less than 100w.

    Wherein we get back to the actual argument, which is that for larger panels in a "critical" application DIY savings are a complete fallacy. For smaller panels savings are possible, depending on what deals you hit and how much you value your own time. Frankly, small commercial panels are very high priced on a per Watt basis.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: no one has to agree with me or follow my advice on anything.
    It's not my money you're spending. It's not my time you're wasting. It's not my house you may be burning down.

    We do not advocate DIY panels around here for all the reasons cited before: safety, quality, efficiency, cost effectiveness. As a rule they tend to fall short in one or more of those categories compared to commercially produced units.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #34
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)

    I will agree that commercial panels/installations have been known to create fires... And the more solar PV installations there are, the more fires there will be.

    A major problem with commercial/NRTL/NEC built systems, from what little I have seen, are from arc faults.

    A connection from the array to the charge controller fails a little bit and starts arcing. There is no fuse/breaker to trip (no over current), and if you have parallel connections, the slight loss of power is probably not even noticeable to the "average user" unless they have heavily instrumented the system.

    In, at least, the US--The electric code is rolling in Arc Fault breakers in homes to reduce these types of fire hazards.

    And Midnite Solar is working on DC Arc Fault breakers for solar too. Their Classic Charge controllers include Arc Fault detection:
    The Classic is also the safest controller available due to its built-in ground fault and arc fault protection. No other controller offers the built-in arc fault protection. This means that the MidNite Classic is the only controller that fully complies with the 2011 National Electric Code regulations without having to add additional equipment to your system. Not only is the Classic the safest, but it's also one of the easiest to set up and use.

    I believe they are looking for the "electrical noise" signatures of arcing failures to trip the breakers... Perhaps in the future, these will be required on Solar PV / GT / OG systems too.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #35
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)

    let's clarify this a bit further here. are we talking pvs in general with their ability to generate power possibly causing a fire elsewhere due to only mishandling of the electric it produced or are we talking only a pv catching on fire due to poor manufacture? to my knowledge i do not know of a single fire caused by a commercially manufactured pv due to the latter. if any of you know of one then please show the link to it.
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  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    #36
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)
    If panels really did allow moisture in and out through two pieces of laminated low-iron glass sealed to an aluminium frame with Sylgard (flammable) then all panels would suffer from internal moisture resulting in corrosion and ultimately failure. Since this happens rarely with commercial panels and frequently with homemade ones obviously it is the care taken with assembly under controlled conditions that make the difference. I mentioned that before, and was ignored. That's "cherry-picking facts", isn't it?

    that's not how the BP/Dow panel was made, it had no backing and lasted I think 25 years with 5% decrease in power, you can re read the link if you want.

    national gypsum in charlote, nc, just had a solar panel fire this spring, not sure of the cause, it is rarely given in the news.
    http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/going_green/2011/05/airport-to-inspect-narenco-solar.html?page=2

    all in all we probably agree more than disagree.
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  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    #37
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)
    I already have an ideal of how to do it, each cell will have a bead of silicone around it and i plan to pour the encapsulating resin inside the bead around the cell.. the bead of silicone is too make sure the slygaurd doesn't run and stays in and around the each cell instead of running off all over the glass.

    Why do it that way so you can save 20% on solar encapsulant?

    its not that expensive, best to just encapsulate the whole thing, and

    also you do not need a backerboard! Every layer you make just makes the whole thing more complicated and lets water get entrapped.

    why would you when the cells are stuck to the class and dow/bp have proven this method to work over a 25 year span of time.
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  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    #38
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)

    Was curious how that 400 Watt panel worked out for you.

    Urbandialect wrote: »
    solar cells:
    cheap 3x6 solar cells, u can get 40 grade A for $39.99 -.5v 1.8 watts.. makes a 70-50 watt panel
    I buy broken/chipped 3x6 at $9.99 for 40 of them on ebay :)
    6x6 mono solar cells, u can get 40 for $130.99- .67v 4.0 watts makes a 160-140 watt panel.
    I'm working on my master piece with these.. I got a piece of tempered glass for $10 of craigslist.org, the size of the glass is 24"x96"x3/16".. if my math is correct it will hold enough cells to make a 400 watt solar panel using the ***** (still working on how to place them)

    DIY for life
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  • a0128958
    a0128958 Solar Expert Posts: 316 ✭✭✭
    #39
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Cite an example involving a properly installed quality panels...

    Here you go: http://www.bakersfield.com/blogs/breaking_news/x435861302/Solar-panels-catch-fire-at-Rosedale-Target .

    A lengthy conduit run expands in a manner to cause DC current wire(s) to arc to the conduit, causing upstream solar panels to catch fire.

    Commercial installation on the roof of a Target department store in CA.

    Best regards,

    Bill
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #40
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)
    a0128958 wrote: »
    Here you go: http://www.bakersfield.com/blogs/breaking_news/x435861302/Solar-panels-catch-fire-at-Rosedale-Target .

    A lengthy conduit run expands in a manner to cause DC current wire(s) to arc to the conduit, causing upstream solar panels to catch fire.

    Commercial installation on the roof of a Target department store in CA.

    Best regards,

    Bill

    From the linked article:
    "Upon further investigation crews found that one of four pieces of conduit containing electrical
    supply lines, for a group of panels, had arced from an unknown electrical problem."
    And:
    "The cause is still under investigation."

    That is not the panels causing an electrical fire, that is a short in wiring which started a fire and destroyed the panels. That can occur whether the wiring is AC or DC, high or low Voltage.
    Commercially made and approved solar panels still have not been the cause of any fire as far as I know. They are one of the safest electrical components there is, due to their self-limiting current potential. The biggest problems still come from improper wiring such as leaving out fuses or pinching wires or poor connections.

    The greatest potential for trouble from solar would be high Voltage GT arrays developing a sustainable arc, which is why many of the smarter solar advocates are in favour of arc-fault protection on arrays - such as the MidNite Classic controllers have (albeit they would not usually be used for GT).
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  • a0128958
    a0128958 Solar Expert Posts: 316 ✭✭✭
    #41
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    ... That is not the panels causing an electrical fire, that is a short in wiring which started a fire and destroyed the panels...

    Regardless of what the initiating event was, the fire started in the commercially constructed and purchased (i.e. non-DIY) panels.

    My points are:

    1. Purchase of commercial (UL Listed, etc.) panels does not guarentee immunity from the panels catching on fire (which is what I think good portions of this thread otherwise advocate).

    2. Installation of a system (panels and everything else) to currently established codes also doesn't guarentee immunity from the panels catching on fire.

    The Target solar installation was installed per existing code at the time. What wasn't known at the time was that if a conduit run is long enough it can separate at a conduit junction due to ambient temperature (weather) swings.

    Also not known at the time was the need for a better fusing strategy.

    As time goes on these 'lessons learned' will get incorporated into codes and rules for compliant installations, continually reducing the risk of 'code-compliant' installations having an associated fire.

    I don't think the industry is to the point yet where it can say there just won't be a panel fire if commercial panels are used.

    Best regards,

    Bill
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #42
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)

    Nope.
    The original issue was the matter of the potential for homemade panels themselves to start fires as opposed to commercial panels. Any type of electrical system may have a fault or failure that leads to fire. That is not the same thing.

    The trouble with homemade panels is that there is about one way to do it right and about a million ways to do it wrong. Chief among these (and the major contributor to homemade panel fires) is the use of flammable backing material. An arc or even high current flow can cause ignition. This is not a risk with manufactured panels.

    Structures that have been wired with approved components and in accordance with electrical code still manage to suffer problems that can lead to fire. This is true whether or not there are solar panels involved, and the commercial panels themselves do not elevate this risk any more than the addition of any other electrical component would. The same can not be said for the addition of homemade panels.
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  • Urbandialect
    Urbandialect Solar Expert Posts: 107 ✭✭✭✭
    #43
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)

    Update on my home made panels, I found an encapsulent that works great!(no yellowing from the encapsulent yet) http://www.lowes.com/pd_298930-1149-5050110_0__?productId=3366918&Ntt=cystal+clear+glaze&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dcystal%2Bclear%2Bglaze&facetInfo=

    It's rated for indoor use but i've had it out side since i've made this thread and the only thing to happen is the silicone that i use to glue the frame to the glass came loose but the panels is still fully encapuslated so there was no real problem other than re siliconing the frame back to the glass, works great!

    Note: Never build a home made panel with ONLY 36 cells, 40 or more cells would be ideal.. the reason is you want to leave room for voltage loss from wire resistant. from panels to charge controller, the longer the run the more voltage loss.. Just an FYI
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  • bsolar
    bsolar Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭✭
    #44
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)

    ive had good luck with 36 6X6 cells in my panels on my 12v system - 30 or so foot wire runs to my combiner box .. ive got 12 panels, plan on making 4 more here real soon and plan on making the new ones 36 cell also .... if i thought there was a problem or any loss worth mentioning i wouldnt be making them 36 cell again .. they put out good, a single panel in full sun can float my 8 cell bank if its charged, and rise it to 14.20v pretty easily ...
    .. smaller cells like half cells or something i can see maybe having a problem with if there is only 36 of them ..
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  • Urbandialect
    Urbandialect Solar Expert Posts: 107 ✭✭✭✭
    #45
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    Re: Problems with my home made panels (fire!!)

    6x6 cells kick *** compared to the 3x6 cells i'm using, i plan to make some panels using them as well. You guys are awesome on this site, I've learn so much..experimenting at home and getting advice from u guys, it has really made this easy to understand.

    Now when i'm buying new electronic the first thing i want know is how many watts does it use? lol Right now everything in my house is an energy hog! And the conversion rate from DC to AC and maintaining charge on battery bank is close to 1 to 8, to run a 100watts AC 24 hours u need about 800watts of DC, it's something crazy like that!

    I don't have the money to buy a system out right, the investment in the batteries and Solar panels is to great, so I'll invest in Batteries and build the solar panels, And a good Charge Control which you're going to need after spending all that money on batteries is another dent in your budget, keeping them at 20% discharged and still be able run a heavy load for 8 hours after sun set requires alot of batteries... 12 volt system using 225 amp hour batteries gives me 45amps per battery, the computer i'm on right now uses 15amps.. then i have a 16yr old daughter that's on here computer for 3 hours, and the wife is watching TV...

    Gotta take it one load at a time i guess...but my goal is to have half my house off grid in 2 years, the AC, Stove, microwave, washer & dryer, will be grid, but the TV, DVDs, Computers, gaming systems, refrigerator, lamps, lights..i want off grid.
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