5000 Watt Inverters x 2

Rick Clark
Rick Clark Registered Users Posts: 11
5000 Watt Inverters x 2 One each for the East side, and the West side of the house.

These two set up's are the same and yes I know I over built it, but it is better to go big.
Solar and wind go big as you can afford even if you have to save to buy it.
There is a lot left out for wasted space.

Starting on the roof, 2/230 watt panels for topping the battery banks off.
And the start of a larger system.

Solar World Sunmodule SW230 230W Monocrystalline Solar Panels.

http://www.altestore.com/store/Solar-Panels/150-Watts-Up-Solar-Panels/Solar-World-Sunmodule-SW230-mono-230w-Solar-Panel/p8051/

This is just to give you a place to check out the info on them, you can shop for the best prices on the net. I do not sell any supplies.

Now we get started

Wire coming in, is #6 AWG 20ft. times 4. I went large so I can expand.

Charge controller

This has been removed by Rick

Dump load is 2/1000 watt dummy loads. And a 3rd one if needed.

There are many different battery wiring diagrams to choose from, but I used this one here.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

#4 in the figure.

Next #000 cable AGW to the inverters.

http://www.theinverterstore.com/the-inverter-store-product.php?model=pwri500012s#

I made up 2 sets of each to lighten the amp. Load.

This is cheaper than buying the super large wire and fittings. I have a lot of cable lying around so I use it.

I used 2” conduit into the house and down to the appropriate size where needed.

My GFI

http://stores.mavericksolar.com/-strse-627/MidNite-Solar-MNDC-dsh-GFP50-dsh-300-PV/Detail.bok

Now I need batteries where to go?
For me it was an easy choice to do.

http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/rvflyer.php?id=16

Wired in series’ laid out as 12volt and then wired up for the system. I’ve used (6
volt 400ah each) x 8 for each bank.

Battery charger and power supply as one. IOTA 55amp

http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-chargers/brands/iota/IOTA-DLS1255.html

Next year I will start my wind farm, I think it will be a blast to build. I know that it will never pay for itself, but a good investment for when the wind blows at night.

Thanks for reading and leave your comments please. Rick;)

Comments

  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    for solar, you do not need a dump load. you could use a water heater element, and get some free hot water.

    Is this grid tie ? off grid ?

    what voltage is your battery bank ? 12V ? uggghhh. Really consider 48V for a large install, and avoid parallel batteries.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    If that controller starts dumping at 13.5v then how does the battery ever get to 14.4v (full charge)?
  • Rick Clark
    Rick Clark Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2
    dwh wrote: »
    If that controller starts dumping at 13.5v then how does the battery ever get to 14.4v (full charge)?

    I have the controller for when I'm not at home so it will not over load the batteries, I have it hooked up to the battery charger to top them off.
    This is an off grid set up
    I built this as a back up system I don't use it every day as I was told that the batteries would last much longer.
    But your right the thing would work better if I went to a different controller.
    Well I guess I'll have to spend more money and change that one out.
    Like it say's it is for beginners and here I am.
    Thanks Rick
  • Rick Clark
    Rick Clark Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2
    mike90045 wrote: »
    for solar, you do not need a dump load. you could use a water heater element, and get some free hot water.

    Is this grid tie ? off grid ?

    what voltage is your battery bank ? 12V ? uggghhh. Really consider 48V for a large install, and avoid parallel batteries.

    I get free hot water from another source.
    Off grid
    Always like 12 volts did not want to change up everything else that was already done in 12 volts. Lighting, alarm system that I built and all my radio needs.
    Rick
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    5kW off 12VDC is a bad idea: nearly 420 Amps of current. This can not be safely managed. Even 0000 wire can't handle it.

    Is there really any one load that needs this massive amount of power? Perhaps you could divide the loads up into several smaller, safer inverters. 12 VDC shouldn't be used for more than 2kW inverters, in my opinion.
  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    Those panels are $ 3.27 per Watt! You can buy decent multi-crystalline panels for off-grid use in $ 1.50 - $1.85 / W range. Or if you are really good at soldering and have steady hands, you can assemble your own panels using solar cells and supplies sourced from ebay. There is one seller there that has 6x6 inch cells for $0.40 - $0.70 per Watt depending on quantity. Although with cheap panels in buck and a half range, it is not really worth doing it yourself unless you really know what you are doing, and have access to cheap or free glass.

    Rethink your inverter and system voltage idea. You will need 48V and quality inverter in $2K range. Don't spend the money twice. 12V is really inappropriate for 10 KW inverter. Losses in wiring from the turbines will be too high.
  • arkieoscar
    arkieoscar Solar Expert Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    I'm thinking Ole Rick is pulling some legs or jerking some chains.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2
    arkieoscar wrote: »
    I'm thinking Ole Rick is pulling some legs or jerking some chains.

    :confused: What leads you to that conclusion?

    There are such things as 5kW 12VDC inverters. They're crap, but they do exist.
  • Rick Clark
    Rick Clark Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    Well I still have a lot to learn!

    Don't buy off of Ebay to save a little money.
    The charge controller I bought came from there used $75.00 and now I see why.

    I have been looking and see that the OutBack FLEXmax 60 should do everything I need or maybe the 80. You people in the know of these things please tell me if that is the way to go.

    If there are better ones, post them as to what you think, no harm in that.

    I am going to cover the panels today with tarps and shut the hole thing down until I have decided which voltage to go to and other things that have to be changed .

    I was thinking tho that if I keep my inverters and I only put no more then 2000 watts into them that will keep the amps down. If not WHY?

    Is AIMS bad? If so what is next best thing?

    I will take the other controller off my post as to not lead some one else astray.

    If you have other ideas please let me here of them.
    Thanks for the input so far.
    Rick
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    AIMS inverter! I knew it! :grr Awful Inverters Made Stupidly! ARGH!

    (Okay, 'Coot; calm down.)

    First off, there's no advantage to running any inverter at less than 50% capacity. It won't save anything. If you only need 2kW, buy 2kW. Or more precisely buy 2.5 to 3, because a little room for extra load is a good idea. But not 2.5X!

    Which brings us to the primary consideration in designing off-grid systems; loads. You really need a firm idea of how much power you actually need. It's a better to ask "I need 'X' Watts, how do I get it?" than "I've got 'X' Watts, what can I do with it?" Especially as the latter scenario often includes having things shut off unexpectedly when your batteries go dead.

    Maximum Watts at any one time and total Watt hours for the day are the key. The maximum will tell you how big an inverter you need, and the Watt hours will enable you to calculate a properly sized battery bank. Once you have that you can determine how much PV and what controller you need to recharge the batteries.

    Equipment comments:
    1. AIMS inverter. 5kW, DC run through parallel wires - very bad practice. If one wire fails even partially, the extra current is shifted to the other(s) - which are undersized for the total load. Also, it is MSW so there are things that will not run off it and other things which will not run well. If you're going for whole-house power, skip the MSW and spend the $ on Pure Sine Wave.
    2. Outback charge controllers. Very good equipment, but might not be right for your actual needs/budget. Morningstar makes a nice 60 Amp MPPT controller too: http://store.solar-electric.com/motr60ampmps.html

    But until you get a firm grip on your load potential you're buying in the dark, and you might just stay that way if you buy the wrong stuff!
  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    I didn't say there was anything wrong with that controller - I was just wondering how it gets the battery up to full charge.

    It seems to me like the battery won't absorb properly because the controller will start dumping at 13.5v and keep dumping until the battery gets down to 12.5v. 3-stage chargers will bulk at 14.4v, then back off to like 13.6v for a while to absorb before finally going into float. But since float is only usually 13.2v, then I guess cycling the battery back and forth between 12.5v and 13.5v might not make all that much difference.


    That actually looks like a simple and more or less bulletproof controller for a wind generator, which, unlike solar, does require a dump load.
  • arkieoscar
    arkieoscar Solar Expert Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2
    :confused: What leads you to that conclusion?

    There are such things as 5kW 12VDC inverters. They're crap, but they do exist.

    I wasn't doubting the existence of the equip. he is using. Just thinking he hit every nerve and I thought it was a little fishy. It seems the OP is real, from his later posts.
  • Rick Clark
    Rick Clark Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGdWcVDaRMcO4AqRtXNyoA?p=7000+Watt+48+Volt+Power+Inverter+by+AIMS&ei=UTF-8&fr=ytff1-&pstart=1&b=11

    I think I will buy a 500 watt pure sine wave for the computer and the TV.

    I spent 3 hours with the Kill-a-watt today and if I run the shop and house and my 3 out buildings I need 3740 watts.

    They make a 5000 watt pure sine for those that did not know.

    Here is the link for AIMS 7000 watt that can run your house, out buildings your shop, and anything else you need.
    You can hard wire it to an AC box for the total of 7000 watts all in one place and run the power where you need it the most.

    I plan on having a very large Batt Bank when I get it all done.
    I will put the inverter 2.5 feet from the batteries, short cables.

    If you think that this company builds junk I wonder why they have been an inverter company for over 12 years.
    If they are that bad they would fold up with repair and replacements.

    I have only found four people that has had a negative response on the net about AIMS and I have looked long and hard today.

    I would like to know where you could find out what makes this thing tick, and what is so bad about the design, anyone with good honest, reliable info?

    As you may never have everything on at once, but there could be a day that you pull it into overdrive, it must work OK if just sitting there waiting for a load to draw, I don't see where it would hurt anything. As they would not build them that large if it was not capable of doing the job.

    It has had some mods done to the 7000 not just a plain old MSW inverter!

    At 7,000 watts, up to 14,000 watts for 9 seconds, 48 volt the Industrial Grade Modified Sine Wave Power Inverter promises to be a complete solution for any power need you present. From recreation to industrial applications and backup/emergency power needs, this 7,000 watt modified sine wave inverter delivers enough durable power for high end equipment that requires substantial electricity. This digitally outputted and phase corrected inverter is the recommended power solution for clean, reliable output without noise or distortion. Delivering an incredible 7,000 watts of continuous power, this utility-grade inverter was designed to reproduce the quality of electricity provided by power companies to create a stable AC power source. This inverter supplies ample power to run large pumps, compressors, power tools, multiple appliances, job sites and even a small house! It has PWM programming which corrects any fluctuation in voltage or frequency caused by battery fluctuation or sudden surges in power usage. It also has a longer than average surge time (9 seconds when over 7,000 watts). Features 7000W max continuous power Modified sine wave Power switch LED is also a self test light - Green Overload fail LED - Red Over Temperature LED indicator Over Load LED indicator 2 ac receptacles On/off switch Over Temperature protection Over Load protection Thermally controlled fan DC volt Meter input meter Percent load usage LED bar 5 Externally located re-settable circuit breakers (60amp) ac output short circuit protection Aluminum case for optimal cooling Pre-wired for remote on/off switch Pre-slotted mounting plate Instruction manual Free 1 year tech support 1 Year Warranty Parts and Labor Specifications Continuous output power: 7000 Watts Surge power capability (peak power): 14,000 Watts The surge duration is electronically controlled and permits up to 9 seconds while the output is between 7000 and 14,000 watts. During this time the buzzer will sound until the inverter electronically shuts down. dc input42-60v 48vdc 48 vdc / operating voltage: Volts Output voltage: 117 Volts ac +/- 10% Output wave form: modified sine wave with phase correction Output frequency: 60 Hz +/- 1 Hz Battery low voltage alarm: 42 +/- 0.5 Volts Battery low voltage shutdown: 41.5 +/- 0.5 Volts High input voltage protection 60 +/-0.5 volts No load current: 200mA Full load efficiency: 94% Auto Cooling Fan Start at 113 degrees F Full load maximum operating temperature: 167 degree F AC Output Socket Type: dual Type 2 -3 prong Internal fuse protection Product size (D x W x H): 25” X 9” X 5.4” • Weight: 29.2 lbs UL maximum recommended per outlet: 1500W.

    I think this looks good at 48 volts, your thoughts please.

    Well I guess I will have to check out some from other manufactures and see what they have to offer.

    It's long thanks for spending the time to read Rick
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    1). Using an MSW inverter to run a whole house is moronic. It is almost 100% certain that something plugged in will not be compatible with the Multiple Square Wave form of the AC output. Kiss your appliances good-bye.
    2). Getting such massive Wattage from DC requires huge amounts of Current at lower Voltages. AIMS habitually overcomes the inability for any wire on Earth to handle the loads by using multiple parallel DC connections, which is a very bad practice.
    3). Lots of companies have been in business for 12 years or more. That doesn't mean they haven't been selling poor-quality or badly designed products the whole time.
    4). From the linked blurb: "It has PWM programming which corrects any fluctuation in voltage or frequency caused by battery fluctuation or sudden surges in power usage." I would like Solar Guppy to explain that, please. To me it's nonsense.
    5). Satisfied customers? You bet! For one thing, most people would have no idea if it was a good product or not because they have no prior experience with inverters. For another, if you run it at 1/4 capacity it will probably work just fine. Try running it consistently near its alleged capacity and see what happens.
    6). Take a look at the specs on some inverters from reputable manufacturers. http://store.solar-electric.com/inverters.html Notice any difference? Like 6kW @ 48 Volt and no wild-eyed claims of 14 kW capacity. Companies like Xantrex, Magnum, Outback, et cetera are in it for the long-haul.
    7). If you waste your money on one of these that's fine with me; it's not my money wasted. But if your house burns down because of over-loaded DC wiring ... That isn't my problem either.

    "Bargain" solar equipment never really is.

    NOTE: I do not sell or install solar equipment professionally, nor have any association with NAWS or any manufacturer. But I have removed a lot of JUNK equipment from people's remote cabins here in the Cariboo, including AIMS crappy inverters. Compared to the real deal, they are just a waste of components.
  • Rick Clark
    Rick Clark Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    Thanks for the reply Cariboocoot

    That was the answer I was looking for.

    Like I said I will buy PSW equipment. I thought that they really over rated-ed their equipment.
    I'll just have to shell out the big bucks to do it right.
    Rick;)
  • Rick Clark
    Rick Clark Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    Well I found a charge controller for my PV and for my wind set up for next year all in one box. Check it out and tell me what you think. If you have one now is the time to chime in.
    Thanks Rick

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0h8X8Gw-64

    http://www.cmdsolar.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SB3024DIL%2FDUO&Show=ExtInfo

    I have not shopped around for the best price yet.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    Interesting concept... A bit expensive for a 30 amp MPPT charge controller.

    A standard 30 amp charge controller + separate diversion controller may be less money (and less to replace if one fails).

    The internal diversion load controller is good for 20 amps--And they have a 40 amp external module you can add on.

    If your diversion loads are "useful" (heating hot water, pumping water to cistern, etc.) then perhaps the integrated controller will provide, overall, more useful power from a given set of panels and wind conditions (with better battery charge control).

    In general water heating with PV power is pretty expensive use of that power.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2

    Hi Rick Clark,

    Well, you have been a very good sport through all of the comments.

    I have nothing meaningful to say about the Blue Sky Duo, but think that are a reputable company, and have been around for some time.

    For me, we all make mistakes, and must all start somewhere. And many of the rules of thumb, while being true ..."conserve, conserve ... " & "know your needs" ... are sometimes difficult. For me, I started with a system which is "too large" in some respects, because I knew that the loads would grow. I could not know what the future demands would be ... am growing into my off-grid cabin and power system.

    And many advisors here, like myself, are often counciling designing the optimum system. But for many of us we do not need or even have a way of knowing what the optimum would be. These are all moving targets.

    Some of the discourse revolves inexpensive/crappy products being foisted onto folks new to off-grid who are on a very tight budget. There are good reasons that high quality, correctly speced products wind up being expensive, and there are few ways to cut out a lot of the cost in Inverters Charge controllers and so on.

    So good luck with your system design. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • Rick Clark
    Rick Clark Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2
    BB. wrote: »
    Interesting concept... A bit expensive for a 30 amp MPPT charge controller.

    A standard 30 amp charge controller + separate diversion controller may be less money (and less to replace if one fails).

    The internal diversion load controller is good for 20 amps--And they have a 40 amp external module you can add on.

    If your diversion loads are "useful" (heating hot water, pumping water to cistern, etc.) then perhaps the integrated controller will provide, overall, more useful power from a given set of panels and wind conditions (with better battery charge control).

    In general water heating with PV power is pretty expensive use of that power.

    -Bill

    Hey Bill thank for the info. I did not think of it like two separate items and maybe replacing one or the other. I will think real hard on this one.
    Maybe that I still need upwards of 60 amp unit just to be on the safe side. I like all the input I can get from the people in the know.
    Thanks again Rick
  • Rick Clark
    Rick Clark Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 5000 Watt Inverters x 2
    Vic wrote: »
    Hi Rick Clark,

    Well, you have been a very good sport through all of the comments.

    I have nothing meaningful to say about the Blue Sky Duo, but think that are a reputable company, and have been around for some time.

    For me, we all make mistakes, and must all start somewhere. And many of the rules of thumb, while being true ..."conserve, conserve ... " & "know your needs" ... are sometimes difficult. For me, I started with a system which is "too large" in some respects, because I knew that the loads would grow. I could not know what the future demands would be ... am growing into my off-grid cabin and power system.

    And many advisors here, like myself, are often counciling designing the optimum system. But for many of us we do not need or even have a way of knowing what the optimum would be. These are all moving targets.

    Some of the discourse revolves inexpensive/crappy products being foisted onto folks new to off-grid who are on a very tight budget. There are good reasons that high quality, correctly speced products wind up being expensive, and there are few ways to cut out a lot of the cost in Inverters Charge controllers and so on.

    So good luck with your system design. Vic

    Thanks Vic,
    I understand what you are saying about buying the more well know-en name brands of equipment.
    Yes I have a lot to learn and what I post here will help me and maybe some one else.
    There is no stupid question just that people don't the answer to it, that's why we post is to learn.
    I like reading the foot notes on your post to see what equipment you folks use. Makes me stop and think.
    I take every thing said with a grain of salt, and I don't get upset over what people have to say. It's not hard to tell the good guy's from the bad.
    Later Rick;)