More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new battery?

Options
2

Comments

  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #32
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    I looked all that up before I posted on your thread. Your batterys weigh 115 lb each for total wt. 1380 lb. Thrcrown battery weighs1060 lb. I have a crawl space basement with 42 inch clearance to frame on double wide. I am too old to crawl around down and only go down there when I absolutly have too. So I got a guy that is going to build me a box to keep my battery in outside the wall of my utility room. You do have a set of monsters that should work well if you get them sorted out. :Dsolarvic:D
    · Share on Twitter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,749 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #33
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    You could be on to something. I know that with Gill Aircraft Battery's if you use any electrolyte besides 1.285 to activate them it will void the warranty. Some batteries meant for export ( Gray Market ) are shipped dry and and most large domestic batteries, who knows what they end up being filled with.

    I do not know if I am on to something as I have had good luck with all of my other systems (47) except one from the same battery supplier. It is more of a corrective action for me. I also do not like Surrettes attitude but even on this forum which is one of the best, it is a small fraction of their sales. I left Trojan because of quality controll with their battery posts BTW.

    On your 3 problem child's, what was their dealer source history? Also, I noted that you said the solar source was only capable of 9% charge. That is a good thing and yes you can't overcharge. However if there is a generator it must be current limited as it can easily ruin a battery. It can do damage on the first charge! The bad thing here is the battery is not conditioned yet and capacity goes down and SG stays acceptable.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #34
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt
    solarvic wrote: »
    I looked all that up before I posted on your thread. Your batterys weigh 115 lb each for total wt. 1380 lb. Thrcrown battery weighs1060 lb. I have a crawl space basement with 42 inch clearance to frame on double wide. I am too old to crawl around down and only go down there when I absolutly have too. So I got a guy that is going to build me a box to keep my battery in outside the wall of my utility room. You do have a set of monsters that should work well if you get them sorted out. :Dsolarvic:D

    Wow, you are thorough! thanks for all the good information! And good luck with your Crown battery - keep us posted! I still want to get mine working, but always good to have more options.....

    Anne
    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #35
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Well, just emailed Surrette asking for a refund. Had another consultant come check things out - someone who wasn't involved in setting up the system, so he is neutral - and he couldn't find anything wrong with the system. SGs of the batteries are good; voltage is good; but they flunked the stress test. We're only getting about 100 amp hours out of them overnight right now. After 6 months!

    As Dave S. suggested, we may just have to buy another set while we're fighting with Surrette and sue them if we don't get the money back. At the rate the batteries are losing capacity, we can't wait very long to replace them.

    Anne
    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #36
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    So current status (just ignore if you don't care) -

    Surrette said that we'd have to ship the batteries back to them; they would evaluate them and decide if we got a refund or not

    I pointed out I was off-grid, and would need another set of batteries before I could send theirs back, and that it was an expensive proposition without being assured I would get a refund. I said I had two consultants check out the system and they both said it must be bad batteries (old, poor SG when delivered)

    To give them credit, Surrette is now working with the dealer - they are planning to have him deliver me a set of 2V trojans and picking up the Surrettes next week. (We are now getting only about 70, MAYBE 80 amp hours out of the Surrettes; we've lowered our nighttime consumption down to 5.3 amps, so are limping through. Hopefully the capacity holds there until the new batteries get here.)

    I have told Surrette that the new batteries must a) be of a recent date code and b) have a high SG and c) have a good voltage or I will reject them. (a lesson learned way too late)

    We haven't gotten to the point of discussing that Trojans cost less than Surrettes so this isn't an even trade; on the other hand, I did get 5 months worth of good use out of the Surrettes before they started crashing, so I'm willing to consider that as part of the cost. And if the batteries get back to Surrette and they say "it's all my fault" (which is their pattern) and they want me to pay for both sets of batteries - well, then we're looking at a lawsuit. But I'll put my optimist face on and hope that doesn't happen....

    times like this, being on the grid looks very attractive. We have SO got to fix the whole battery/storage issue in order to get people to move over in mass!

    Anne
    · Share on Twitter
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #37
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Abrockca, it's good to hear that at least something is happening, and we hope the problems will be resolved properly. I've been considering replacing my batteries, when they need it, with Surrette 2 volt L16's, but all these problems have me scared of them. What are we supposed to do? Thing is, they're made more or less locally, so shipping isn't a huge issue, and we do want to support local. Makes for a very difficult situation. :cry:
    · Share on Twitter
  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭
    #38
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    You've got it lucky Wayne. Just put on your truss, throw any bad cells into the pickup truck and drive to Surrette's with your complaint:cry:

    Ralph
    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #39
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    I'm with Ralph - if you're local, you can always hold a sit-in on their doorstep until they respond!

    But seriously - there are lots of people who aren't having problems with their Surrettes. Get them straight from the factory and make sure the date code is very recent, and hopefully their 2011 batteries don't have the issues we've noticed in 2010.

    I'm in California and Trojans are made here, so that's one of the reasons I'm going back to them...should be fresher than getting them from the east coast of Canada. And hopefully if something goes wrong they're easier to work with. (and I imagine Surrette is saying "thank goodness - Trojan will be stuck with her....")
    · Share on Twitter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,749 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #40
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Recent date codes and the important one, they are all the same!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

    · Share on Twitter
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #41
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    You've got it lucky Wayne. Just put on your truss, throw any bad cells into the pickup truck and drive to Surrette's with your complaint:cry:

    Ralph

    Sounds like a plan there Ralph. Now if I can find my truss, I'll hang it by the batteries. :p:p
    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #42
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt
    Dave Sparks wrote: »
    Recent date codes and the important one, they are all the same!

    Good point - but the Surrettes I got in May did NOT all have date codes; and we had four people searching the batteries for them. We ended up assuming since the ones that had date codes all had the same date code, that the rest of them were the same date as well.

    But yes, you're right - I need to make sure the Trojans all have the same date code!
    · Share on Twitter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,749 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #43
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    It would be nice if you put some pressure on them as to the reason that these batteries lost capacity. Maybe tell them there is a forum that they can look at.

    No matter what they say, they have lost all credibility in your situation by selling batteries that do not have a stamp for date code on them. Are the Chinese selling them? No, they would be smart enough to copy a date from someone elses battery.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #44
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Just have to vent - so skip if you'd rather not read!

    Surrette said I'd have the new batteries (Trojans this time) "probably this week." They said they would coordinate.

    Just sent my third email to them this week after getting no replies from the two emails earlier this week. No batteries, no delivery date. I have told them I have to coordinate the delivery with my work schedule and my consultant's work schedule.

    Don't know if the holdup is them or the battery dealer - but the lack of response drives me crazy. If there is a holdup - let me know. Don't go silent.

    ok, ok, I need to call them tomorrow. Obviously email isn't working, but I like the paper trail. Wonder what the name of the CEO is? maybe I should contact them directly.

    Anne
    · Share on Twitter
  • manzanita
    manzanita Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭✭✭
    #45
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    So is this a QA slip at the factory or is your dealer doing something that diminishes the capacity of the batteries? I don't understand why your dealer isn't catching the problems before delivery. I'd be inclined to fill the batteries with electrolyte from the factory myself.

    I also don't see what kind of inverter you are using. Are you using the inverter to manage charging by generator?

    None of my business, I'm just curious.
    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #46
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Hi, Manzanita -

    Darned if I know who is causing the problem - the dealer, the warehouse, Surrette? I'm pretty sure the problem was old batteries that weren't stored properly; based on the date code, they were from July 2010, and they were installed May, 2011. But who didn't store them properly?

    Someone also told me that before a factory ships them, they do a final preparation/conditioning of the batteries; maybe these batteries didn't get that? they were stored dry and the acid was dumped in and they were shipped without the final step?

    Then again, someone on this site had multiple sets of batteries from the 2nd half of 2010 that lost capacity after 4 or 5 months, so maybe it was a bad year?

    I'm expecting that Surrette will tell me it's my fault - that I overcharged them (nope, followed their instructions exactly) or overtightened bolts (huh?) or didn't maintain them (yes I did... they never ran out of water or anything). We'll see. I shouldn't try to put words in their mouth.

    Because these batteries were installed in May, they mostly charged through our panels; we had plenty of sun. We did have to run the generator a few times - when we wanted to run the swamp cooler or the few rainy days we had in Sept. Or a few times when our amp hours used in the morning were higher than usual, we'd run the generator for an hour so they would be sure to get to float later in the day. (That was especially important when we were running a long absorb time because the specific gravity was pretty low at the beginning). We have a Xantrex SW Plus 4024 inverter (just one inverter).

    Of course, once they started failing, we have to run the generator a lot more often...sigh.

    Anne
    · Share on Twitter
  • manzanita
    manzanita Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭✭✭
    #47
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Hi Anne,

    Thanks for the reply. I have difficulty imagining that the factory would have batteries sitting around for a long period. (Doesn't mean that I am right.) I would think that the factory would junk the batteries rather than risk damaging their reputation.

    I hope you get the new Trojans you wrote about and that they serve you well.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Fullpower
    Fullpower Solar Expert Posts: 69 ✭✭
    #48
    Options
    battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Your last post implies that Surrette is going to replace your battery bank, with a competitor's product.
    Please confirm: Surrette has said they will deliver TROJAN batteries to you, in exchange for your defective Surrette batteries?
    Am I getting this right?
    Has anyone yet made a recommendation to replace the electrolyte and see if the cells will take charge current?
    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #49
    Options
    Re: battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Hi,Fullpower -

    Yes, I'm getting Trojans in replacement, not Surrettes. First I asked for my money back; then they asked what I was replacing them with, and said they would work with the dealer on the swap. It could be I was so obnoxious that they are happy to get rid of me. It could also be that when they get my batteries back, they'll decide I did something wrong and tell me I have to pay for the Trojans and that I'm not getting money back on the Surrettes. Since this was my second set of Surrettes that failed early (this time way early) I really didn't want another set.

    No one has suggested replacing electrolyte; maybe Surrette will try that when they get them back. I'm sure as heck not messing around with electrolyte.

    Anne
    · Share on Twitter
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #50
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Maybe they're ordering in a few Trojan shells and they're just gonna drop Surrette guts in them for ya. :p:p:p
    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #51
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    Maybe they're ordering in a few Trojan shells and they're just gonna drop Surrette guts in them for ya. :p:p:p

    ROFL!! you could be right!
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #52
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    Maybe they're ordering in a few Trojan shells and they're just gonna drop Surrette guts in them for ya. :p:p:p

    'Twould be better if they did that t'other way 'round. ;)
    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #53
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Ok! Trojan L16-RE 2 volts are installed!

    I really hope I'm not doing this again in 5 months... they had a) current date code b) all the same date code (there was one battery where we couldn't really see it, but assume it matches) c) good SGs when they arrived and d) good voltage. We got them in and connected within an hour, hour and a half of arrival. We had just enough sun to take them through bulk/absorb and in to float...
    · Share on Twitter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #54
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Measured and logged resting voltage, specific gravity, etc. of each battery/cell?

    Are these all in series, or series/parallel? (if series/parallel, do you have a DC current clamp meter to monitor current sharing when charging/discharging?).

    Best of luck!
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #55
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Hi, Bill - we measured while they were still in the truck; no sense unloading them if any were duds. (Glad they were all good since we had already undone and moved the old batteries...)

    They are in series; we don't have a DC clamp meter, will check in to that. Thanks!

    Anne
    · Share on Twitter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #56
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Hi Anne,

    You have been down this road before... ;)

    Hope it goes better this time.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
    · Share on Twitter
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #57
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Hi Anne,

    Good luck with the new battery bank.
    Check the battery manual, FLA batteries love to be petted each day. Keeps them all towing the line together.

    YMMV, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
    · Share on Twitter
  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #58
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    thanks for all the good wishes! 2011 for us was "the year when everything broke - sometimes twice"... hoping it's close enough to 2012 that these batteries won't suffer from that curse!

    Or - the world could end in 2012... and some days I'm ok with that!<grin>

    Anne
    · Share on Twitter
  • wingnutter
    wingnutter Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭
    #59
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Hi,

    Must get this off my chest

    I have just recently purchased 2 * S530 batteries from Rolls that were showing 1.050 SG, (funny both only on 2 cells) these were on seperate orders of multiple units but showing very close battery codes. My supplier has been very good and has replaced both batteries, the first one with a bit of a fight making me fill in an RMA form and listen to the, oh it must be hard ware issues, wrong charging parameters blah de blah.

    They also told me that the batteries would improve after several charge cycles, 2 months later they were exactly the same. This is after charging them at very high rates for long periods of time.

    If anyone has a solution, I would be grateful as the dud batteries are still sitting here.

    The fact that I had a long time hitting home was that was how they were supplied and as far as I am concerned were "not fit for the purpose sold". What both the supplier and Rolls don.t give a hoot about, is that I have to travel several hundred miles to replace these units and put up with very unhappy customers.

    In my opinion the 7 year warranty offered by Rolls is not up to much when they deny any fault when the product is only off the shelf.

    If you talk to Rolls tech support be prepared for such answers as " they will improve after some charging" failing to quantify what "some charging is" and failing to tell you why they have low SG in the first place.



    My guess is that the date stamps are placed on the battery prior to shipping from Canada not after manufacture, by the time they get to you ( I am in Europe) the batteries could well be several months old. Trying to recover these sulfated batteries is quite difficult / impossible with most battery chargers and can be very time consuming. (allthough Rolls CS will not use the word sulphated, must be banned from the flow chart)

    It could be argued that the batteries self discharge at 1% a day and there supply chain is at fault, still it is their supply chain and they should sort it.

    It seems a shame that Rolls are going down that corporate customer care route that I call the Orwell ring road, where you never get a straight answer, you allways talk to a different CS operative and no matter what, you end up where you started.

    My guess is that in a few years when Rolls have finished trading on a past very good reputation, Trojan or a similar company will be offering a far better products and service.

    A word of warning when handling this type of battery, they are prone to damage due to their flimsy casings and it is possible to have the internal joints between the cases separators fail. ( another Rolls story ) Further to this, I have yet after handling dozens of these units to find a dry shipment, most arrive with wet casings where the top lid has been compromised. Lost many a pair of jeans working with them, the last delivery driver, (not knowing what is inside a battery) asked what was on his cargo pants, both legs were soaking, the making of a fine pair of shorts!


    Well that’s it my regretful 2 cents worth, I used to think I was selling and installing a quality product where I was backed by a company that honored its warranty without making me and customers wait weeks and lose my temper with my supplier before I got any type of satisfaction.

    In short, don’t every accept a new 6V battery that shows less than 6V and never accept any battery with low SG or variation in SG between the cells of more than .025.


    Amen
    · Share on Twitter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #60
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    Hard to disagree with what you say... The only question I would have is, I would believe, they are shipped "Dry Charged" and electrolyte is added at the distributor's shop.

    And, if they have "oxidized" plates (as opposed to sulfated plates), then a recovery charge regime may help.

    But--as an engineer--I would always look at sets of "things" and try to figure out why a bunch are OK and a couple of failed--Good/bad cells in the same battery would seem to stand out for a detailed failure analysis.

    More than likely, your distributor would have put good electrolyte in all cells (rather than one or two bad and the rest good)... It is always possible that there was a problem with the electrolyte... However, weighing electrolyte containers on a scale before filling would show any problems right away ("bad electrolyte"/just "water" would be upwards of 20% lighter for the same volume).

    Almost sounds like a poor seal (oxygen got in) or shorted cells (what the heck)... I don't know that a poor seal (oxygen leak) would show low electrolyte--but it does not seem reasonable.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #61
    Options
    Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

    What does not seem reasonable to me is that dealers are handing these things over to customers without checking. We're not talking about $89 Wal*Mart specials here. When you get a new battery its SG should be up to snuff to begin with, not down at the level of water. It is not the customer's responsibility to check the batteries and be sure they're good at the time of sale; it is the dealers'.

    I find it inexcusable that this is happening with what are supposedly "high end" batteries. Part of what you're paying for with that premium price is quality assurance. Getting batteries that are dead from the start and then being told you should have to mess with them until they perform properly (or not) is totally wrong.

    There have been too many incidences of the same type with these batteries for it to be coincidence, in my opinion. Surrette has a problem. Ignoring it and trying to foist it off on the end-user is not a good business practice.
    · Share on Twitter

Categories