Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

Hello fellas, I have 3 Agm batteries wired parallell to an inverter on my camper and need to install a Bogart meter.

I have a 500a shunt mounted and if I understand this correctly......

1) The positive cable never touches the shunt itself, but I put a 2 amp fuse on the hotline and run it to B1+

2) The G1 and G2 wires go on the Kelvin connections (inverter side)

3)The SIG wire goes on Kelvin connection (battery side)

4)Run the negative wire for the inverter to the shunt.

So basically the charge comes from the inverter, then through the shunt to the negative side of the battery?

Any help would be appreciated.
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Comments

  • BB.BB. Posts: 24,643Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Not an expert, buy my 2 cents worth:
    Will2020 wrote: »
    1) The positive cable never touches the shunt itself, but I put a 2 amp fuse on the hotline and run it to B1+
    Sounds good. Measures +12 volts of battery plus provides power to the Battery Monitor
    2) The G1 and G2 wires go on the Kelvin connections on the outgoing negative side of the shunt.
    If the AH meter reads "backwards", you may have G1/G2 reversed.

    3)The SIG wire goes on Kelvin connection on incoming negative side.
    This wire provides the return line for BM DC power, and measures the other side of your battery voltage. Sounds good.
    What size wire needs to go from negative to the shunt? I'm running 2 gauge for my batteries.
    This lead will need to carry 100% of your maximum load current. If the positive lead from the battery is 2 awg, then 2 awg from the battery to the shunt, and from the shunt to ground bus/common/frame ground is correct.

    Gauge of cable both defines the maximum current it can carry, and also voltage drop... If you have a long wire run and heavy current, you may need a heavier gauge cable to so that you do not loose too much voltage on the wire run (assuming 11.5 volts minimum battery voltage and 10.5 inverter cutoff, you have ~1.0 volt headroom for fuses, shunt, wiring drop).
    I have to run a wire from the negative to the shunt, then run a wire out of the shunt going back to the negative terminal. Is it supposed to operate in a loop like this?
    Not quite sure I understand your question... Imagine you have a cable going from battery (-) to your frame ground/ground bus connection.

    Just cut that ground wire and insert the shunt in the middle. You want all battery current going through the shunt so it can measure the same current that the batteries "see":
    [FONT=Fixedsys][+load bus]=====[+battery-]===[shunt]===[-load bus/frame ground]
    Make +                                   make - connections here
    connections                                      
    here[/FONT]
    
    This battery has the same wires that go to my inverter. I do not need to directly hook up the meter to the Iota do I?[/QUOTE]

    The Iota and Inverter connections should be made at the +/- load bus connection points. That way, all current to/from the battery will be monitored in included in capacity calculations.

    If you were to put a -Load between Battery- and Shunt, those loads would be "invisible" to the Battery Monitor.

    Note, every + wire that leaves the +bus should be protected by a fuse/breaker rated for that size wire... i.e., 15 amp branch for 14 AWG wire, etc...

    Many times, you will use a heavier wire than needed to reduce voltage drop... For example you may use a 10 AWG wire on a 15 amp branch circuit. You may still choose to use a 15 amp fuse/breaker even though a 10 AWG wire is good for 30 amps or more.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarusicarus Posts: 5,070Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    It is really pretty simple:

    http://www.bogartengineering.com/sites/default/files/docs/TM-2025Install%20Instructions4-20-10.pdf

    Shunt goes on the negative side, fused power from the positive side (anywhere) the G1-G2 go to the shunt connections. If memory serves, if you connect these two backwards the meter will read backwards. A word of caution, if the connections are funky on the shunt it will read erratically. Also, the lugs on the back of the meter need to be tight and perhaps tightened once in a while.

    Tony
  • Will2020Will2020 Posts: 62Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    I have 4 gauge wire coming from the inverter, then 8 gauge wire going from the fuse panel to the battery.

    I think I'm supposed to run the ground line coming from the fuse panel (charging system) directly to the shunt, and then run a ground cable from the shunt to the battery? That is the best that I can tell from the directions and that diagram.

    That is 8 gauge wire coming from the charging system and then exiting a 2 gauge wire on the other side of the shunt.

    Will this give me optimal charge and battery readings?

    You don't need 2 gauge coming from the inverter do you?
  • Will2020Will2020 Posts: 62Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Ok I got it. All current from the negative battery system flows through the shunt.

    Heres the situation.

    I have 4 gauge going from the Iota inverter to the fuse panel. I can not fit anything larger than 4 gauge into the Iota. Is this the proper size?

    Then from the fuse panel, I have 8 gauge going to my shunt.

    I have 3 batts wired parallel with 2 gauge.

    Do I need to upgrade the 8 gauge to at least 4 gauge?
  • icarusicarus Posts: 5,070Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    The shunt essentially "breaks" the negative wire. Battery wire, shunt, wiring to the inverter, charge controller etc.

    The size of the wire, (any wire) needs to be able to carry the expected current. Remember, an inverter suppling 120vac loads at any given amperage, that same load at the battery at 12 vdc will be 10 times greater. A 300 watt load at 120 vac will draw 2.5 amps, but will draw 25 amps from the battery. (Plus inverter loses!)

    Additionally, the wire size needs to carry the load, but you have to consider line loss. Lower voltage means more line loss per foot. When in doubt, use the biggest wire you can.


    #8 wire will carry ~ 40 amps,, #2 will carry ~ 90 amps. 40 amps @ 12 vdc is ~360 watts.

    #4 will carry 70 amps or ~ 840 watts.

    So it all depends on what you are planning on powering with your inverter. Also consider how much charge current you are likely to have.

    Tony
  • Will2020Will2020 Posts: 62Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    I have an Iota 30 amp converter charger, to be used only for charging the batteries with a 1kw generator.

    Will this be sufficient to charge 3?

    Is there a formula for this type of charge?
  • dagr51dagr51 Posts: 72Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    What size are your batteries? Or did I miss that?
  • icarusicarus Posts: 5,070Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    The formula for flooded lead acid batteries is between 5 and 13% of amp hour capacity. It is a bit different for AGMs. I can't cut and palsy the link to the batterie faqs nape, but I'm sure you can find them on this forum. If not I will post them later.

    Tony
  • BB.BB. Posts: 24,643Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Deep Cycle Battery FAQ
    www.batteryfaq.org

    For example, a 100 AH battery should be charged, roughly between 5 and 13 Amp*Hours.... You can go to 20-30% or so--but usually only with an AC charger--30% battery rating would be relatively expensive with solar panels.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarusicarus Posts: 5,070Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Thainky you BIll! I aom still figuring out work arounds on the IPad. As a side note, draw almost no power, and will run all day on a charge. I will have to kill a watt it running and charging sometime.

    T

    Will2020, please note that the 5 to 13% is for flooded batteries. Make sure you read Bill's link for AGMS!

    T
  • BB.BB. Posts: 24,643Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Ipad Keyboard?
    Wireless Ipad Keyboard?
    Mouse?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarusicarus Posts: 5,070Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Not to highjack the thread, but I'm Using the touch screen keyboard, and beginning to get comfortable with it. If I were to do a lot, i would get n add on key board. I am also learning how to open multiple pages, and book mark favorites (like the battery FAQs). I haven't mastered the cut/copy/paste functions yet.

    Appologies to all for more typos that usual,

    Tony
  • solar_davesolar_dave Posts: 2,271Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install
    icarus wrote: »
    Not to highjack the thread, but I'm Using the touch screen keyboard, and beginning to get comfortable with it. If I were to do a lot, i would get n add on key board. I am also learning how to open multiple pages, and book mark favorites (like the battery FAQs). I haven't mastered the cut/copy/paste functions yet.

    Appologies to all for more typos that usual,

    Tony

    I am with you on the touch screen, I have a blue tooth keyboard still in the box!
  • Will2020Will2020 Posts: 62Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Ok, I have the meter hooked up. Now I'm trying to figure out how to program this thing. I'm looking at both sets of directions and they say to program "P1" for agm batteries to 14.0 But I have no idea how to do this.

    I am trying to get a Level 1 program and fumbling with this thing for hours. Does anyone know how to do a basic programming on these things?
  • Will2020Will2020 Posts: 62Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    I figured out how to get the P1 screen, but how do I program the 14.0?
  • dagr51dagr51 Posts: 72Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    I have the TM-2020 so my instructions may not be the same as yours, but it is spelled out in the "TriMetric Program mode summary, entering system data into the TriMetric"" for my unit. Do you have a similar page in your instructions?
  • Will2020Will2020 Posts: 62Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    I have a summary of programming instructions page.

    If I am not mistaken, the only difference between a tm-2020 and 2025 is the 2025 has a line to measure an extra battery. But I am not worried about that right now.

    The factory value is 28.6 charged setpoint voltage, and I need 14.0 for agm batteries.

    It says it comes with a level 1 program. Is this true? What are the main things I need to worry about?
  • dagr51dagr51 Posts: 72Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    I just went to NAWS and found the installation instructions for the 2025 http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/wind-sun/TM-2025-Install-Instructions.pdf, and it is a lot different than my 2020 instructions. However, it seems to me that if you follow the instructions in the "Complete Installation Manual", page 6, "Programming Instructions" you should be able to get it. Steps 1 & 2 are for observing factory set data, while steps 3 & 4 explain how to change the data, such as your setpoint. Again, carefully follow these steps and it should work for you. Good luck!
  • Will2020Will2020 Posts: 62Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    I've read that, but now that you pointed that particular section out, I was able to program my P1. I think I can figure out the rest now.

    Much appreciated for all the help from everyone. :D
  • TenMileTenMile Posts: 61Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    I just finished installing and programming a 2025 as well. I do have to say that while the instruction manual is very detailed, it is not well written -- actually, I'd suggest it's written by an engineer who kept getting himself sidetracked travelling down every detail rathole. And while detail is good, there is a time and place for it.

    Anyhow, once you get the programming going, it's relatively easy to figure out. Level 2 is also easy to understand if you want some logging of data.
  • icarusicarus Posts: 5,070Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Technical writing is an art, and most manuals are very poorly written. They are either to simple to be useful, or they are so complicated and they assume a level of knowledge that many users don't have.

    I have done a small bit of technical writing and it is very hard to be clear, informative and readable.

    Tony
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Posts: 17,615Banned
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install
    icarus wrote: »
    Technical writing is an art, and most manuals are very poorly written. They are either to simple to be useful, or they are so complicated and they assume a level of knowledge that many users don't have.

    I have done a small bit of technical writing and it is very hard to be clear, informative and readable.

    Tony

    Absolutely!
    And those engineers who do the writing already understand what they're saying so they can't understand why everyone else doesn't. Like proof-reading your own work; you always read what you think you wrote rather than what's actually on the page. :roll:
  • BB.BB. Posts: 24,643Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Hey--Don't blame the engineers... All our stuff was written by Tech Pubs and were "award winning" manuals...

    No matter that our service people just would tear out chapter 13 and toss the other ~19 chapters in the recycle bin.

    Tech Pubs also sat on the change review committee and complain that "Glitch" was not a real word in their tech pubs' dictionary and would waste 30+ minutes of 15 other managers arguing to rewrite the ECO problem descriptions.

    Engineers are very comfortable with different layers of details and abstractions. :cool:

    Now--if you don't want the details--don't ask an engineer--ask the marketing department. ;)

    Now having three buttons to program a 27 menu/field setup screen--I am not sure how that could ever be done "elegantly" and still be easy for anyone to pickup on the first time. That is why VCR clocks still flash 12:00am to this day (VCR / DVR / wrist watch programming should be taught in grade school:roll:).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • TenMileTenMile Posts: 61Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install
    BB. wrote: »

    Now having three buttons to program a 27 menu/field setup screen--I am not sure how that could ever be done "elegantly" and still be easy for anyone to pickup on the first time. That is why VCR clocks still flash 12:00am to this day (VCR / DVR / wrist watch programming should be taught in grade school:roll:).

    -Bill

    Here's hoping that the 2030 incorporates a USB port on the side of it so that the programming and access to data can be done via a web browser. Or better yet, give it a WiFi client so it can be controlled remotely :-)
  • BB.BB. Posts: 24,643Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Marketing said it would cost too much to make and nobody will ever use it. :D

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Posts: 17,615Banned
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    (Not going to mention the hour I spent one day explaining to the engineer that the timing circuit he'd built for a piece of test equipment in my department worked backwards, while he repeatedly said "that's impossible.") :p
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 3,238Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    While so much is propiatory I don't under stand why internal serial bus'es can't have the same pinout. It's not like that's all you need.

    I have yet to understand why some standard sized lithium batteries can't be setup, I guess it keeps some small producers looking bad if they need to use a standard NiCd AA or AAA rather than lithium. I understand that the laptop batts, 1650(?) are some what a standard (built into packs), but it seams every phone and MP3 player takes a different battery.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • icarusicarus Posts: 5,070Super Moderators admin
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    Then there was the instruction that had been translated "push this button once twice". Huh?

    Tony
  • bbbuddybbbuddy Posts: 104Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    We just installed a Trimetric 2025-RV last week, and while I thought originally I would stay at the P1 easy level, I quickly found out that I wanted full use of it, so went to P3.

    I love this thing! Once you "decode" the instructions, it is easy to use.

    Just took a bit of studying the manual....there are important bits buried in there!

    Yes, the manual could be rewritten, BUT the info is there if you take time to really study it. Having to dig for it makes you REALLY learn it, lol...
  • Will2020Will2020 Posts: 62Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Tri-Metric Tm-2025-Rv install

    I got it all figured out. It just took a few days and some osmosis. ;)

    Thanks for all the help everybody.
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