Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

jcgee88
jcgee88 Solar Expert Posts: 154 ✭✭
While the state of Missouri does have a voter-passed renewable energy
mandate, the actual solar installation rate has been somewhat modest.
Part of this is because Missouri localities are going through the fits and
starts that "new" technology can cause. One of the traditional early
adopter issues is aesthetics. And this issue can become an overriding
issue in the wealthy municipalities, whose homeowners value the
large, natural vistas that they originally purchased with their homes.

Here is a news story on just such a situation:

http://www.kplr11.com/news/ktvi-town-country-puts-a-hold-on-solar-panel-issue-20110214,0,673707.story

The homeowner's immediate next door neighbor has raised such a
ruckus that the town's Board of Alderman suspended the project,
pending their coming up with "rules and regulations" to goven
solar projects. The neighbor objects to the size and industrial
looking nature of the proposed large, ground mounted array. The
homeowner responded by planting a dozen trees to block her
view, and when she was still not satisified, he planted an additional
dozen trees. She concedes that she can now barely see the array,
but is still against it.

In addition to this project being suspended, another project one
township over was also suspended, again pending the town
coming up with a standard policy to goven solar.

What we have here is a basic conflict. Does a person have a right
to do what they want on their property? Should neighboring
residents have the right to block what they consider an eyesore
and what they feel will reduce their property value? What is
your opinion?

John

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    "Aesthetic by-laws" are getting out of hand in some places. One man's "art" is another man's "eyesore".
    My opinion is that if you don't like looking at your neighbour's yard, don't look at it; there are four other directions to cast your eyes. I take offense at the "monster house" next door: it's a million dollars worth of ugly, in my opinion. So I don't look at it.

    But ultimately it isn't our or the homeowners' opinions that matter; it's what the by-laws and enforcement officers say. This is less than ideal, to say the least.

    Personally I think one day solar panels will be the "in"and "trendy" thing and everyone will be clamoring to have them installed just to keep up with the Joneses. Some company will probably start selling fake panels so you can give your house "that solar look" without spending all the money.

    Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis.

    In this particular case it sounds like the neighbour is just a nasty trouble-maker.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    The one I always hate was restriction on clothes lines!

    Tony
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    Yep! don't move into a HOA, They boards can be full of nasty people that analize everything.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    Funny thing is I have seen/heard more damage and deaths from "Green Things" (like large trees among homes/parks that people are not allowed to cut down by city ordnance) than from a set of solar panels on somebody's roof.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    If you're getting "free" solar power and I'm not, I'm going to do everything my lawyer thinks I can get away with to put a stop to it. The heck with the environment, common sense or anything else, I WANT IT STOPPED!
    That's why I hate the sound of wind turbines too. It's the sound of money going in YOUR bank account and not mine!
    What a bunch of pompous idiots!
  • SolarLurker
    SolarLurker Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    If I am reading the article right the guy wants to install 900 feet of solar, that is a hudge array and I can see the neighbors not wanting to look at it.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"
    If I am reading the article right the guy wants to install 900 feet of solar, that is a huge array and I can see the neighbors not wanting to look at it.

    I don't read that anywhere. I see an address of "the 900 block of Claymark". In fact I don't see any actual mention of the size at all. Maybe some of the article isn't showing up for some reason? :confused:
  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    in the video they did mention "about 900 sq ft of panel" but was not printed in the article. ;)
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    Ah, the ol' "Linux netbook won't run video" scenario! :p Someday I must get a more up-to-date computer; finding valves for this one is becoming problematic.

    At 900 sq. feet we have to ask: whatcha need all that power for? That's 30 times the area of mine. Methinks it could be better thought-out and downsized.

    It's still none of the neighbours' business though. No different than a garage build.
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"
    Ah, the ol' "Linux netbook won't run video" scenario! :p Someday I must get a more up-to-date computer; finding valves for this one is becoming problematic.

    At 900 sq. feet we have to ask: whatcha need all that power for? That's 30 times the area of mine. Methinks it could be better thought-out and downsized.

    It's still none of the neighbours' business though. No different than a garage build.
    900 square feet is about a 13kW array. PVWatts says that in Missouri that would offset about $100/month in electric bill. It's a relatively large system, but it probably wouldn't offset his bill 100%. If he has the money for the up front cost, why not?

    That said, homeowner associations can be pretty powerful lobbyists in local politics, and a large ground mounted array is a lot more intrusive in some folks' eyes than any size roof mount system. I agree with you in principle, but in reality he may be up against a formidable force.
  • vcallaway
    vcallaway Solar Expert Posts: 157 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    Fortunately WA has a CC&R preemption clause.

    Basically it says if it meets code nobody can make you take it down.
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    That reminds me, I've to call the Board of Alderman officials and see what
    can be done about that ugly looking car my neighbor parks in his driveway.. :p

    Aptera%20left%20side.jpg
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    There is law prevent such abuse of astheics principals. Here is AZ there is an actual exclusion law to prevent a HOA from blocking ones use of the sun.

    Below are the Arizona State Statutes for your reference:
    33-439. Restrictions on installation or use of solar energy devices invalid; exception
    A. Any covenant, restriction or condition contained in any deed, contract, security agreement or other instrument affecting the transfer or sale of, or any interest in, real property which effectively prohibits the installation or use of a solar energy device as defined in section 44-1761 is void and unenforceable.
    B. A deed, contract, security agreement or other instrument affecting the transfer or sale of, or any interest in, real property entered into before April 17, 1980 shall not be subject to the provisions of this section.
    http://www.azleg.gov/ars/33/00439.htm
    33-1816. Solar energy devices; reasonable restrictions; fees and costs
    A. Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit the installation or use of a solar energy device as defined in section 44-1761.
    B. An association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the placement of a solar energy device if those rules do not prevent the installation, impair the functioning of the device or restrict its use or adversely affect the cost or efficiency of the device.
    C. Notwithstanding any provision of the community documents, the court shall award reasonable attorney fees and costs to any party who substantially prevails in an action against the board of directors of the association for a violation of this section.
    http://www.azleg.gov/ars/33/01816.htm

    44-1761. Definitions
    In this article, unless the context otherwise requires:
    1. "Collector" means a component of a solar energy device that is used to absorb solar radiation, convert it to heat or electricity and transfer the heat to a heat transfer fluid or to storage.
    2. "Heat exchanger" means a component of a solar energy device that is used to transfer heat from one fluid to another.
    3. "Solar daylighting" means a device specifically designed to capture and redirect the visible portion of the solar beam spectrum, while controlling the infrared portion, for use in illuminating interior building spaces in lieu of artificial lighting.
    4. "Solar energy device" means a system or series of mechanisms designed primarily to provide heating, to provide cooling, to produce electrical power, to produce mechanical power, to provide solar daylighting or to provide any combination of the foregoing by means of collecting and transferring solar generated energy into such uses either by active or passive means. Such systems may also have the capability of storing such energy for future utilization. Passive systems shall clearly be designed as a solar energy device such as a trombe wall and not merely a part of a normal structure such as a window.
    5. "Storage unit" means a component of a solar energy device that is used to store solar generated electricity or heat for later use.
    http://www.azleg.gov/ars/44/01761.htm
  • jagec
    jagec Solar Expert Posts: 157 ✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"
    ggunn wrote: »
    900 square feet is about a 13kW array. PVWatts says that in Missouri that would offset about $100/month in electric bill. It's a relatively large system, but it probably wouldn't offset his bill 100%. If he has the money for the up front cost, why not?

    That said, homeowner associations can be pretty powerful lobbyists in local politics, and a large ground mounted array is a lot more intrusive in some folks' eyes than any size roof mount system. I agree with you in principle, but in reality he may be up against a formidable force.

    If it's a 13 kW array, that's 16,500 kWh a year in Missouri! That's a pretty crazy-high amount of usage in my opinion! I'm weeks away from installing 5 kW on my house, which I expect will get me pretty close to net-zero on my electricity usage. My place is smaller and has gas heat, mind you, but still...

    In the video they say that he's planning on it covering about 50% of his power usage. Maybe they're cheap thin-film panels? That would be closer to 4.5 kW, or 5700 kWh a year.

    I don't know if "aesthetics" is a reasonable argument, though...I mean, if HOAs can't restrict antennas or satellite dishes per FCC regulations, and they can't make you get rid of the Pontiac Aztek parked in your driveway, then what's the point of banning solar arrays (that are concealed by trees)? Of course, no one ever accused HOAs of being "reasonable!"
  • jcgee88
    jcgee88 Solar Expert Posts: 154 ✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    A couple of corrections....
    jagec wrote: »
    Maybe they're cheap thin-film panels?

    No. I am familiar with the prospective installer, as they installed
    my array. This company only does the normal mono or poly
    crystalline panels (their preferred panels are Sharp and
    SunPower).

    jagec wrote: »
    I don't know if "aesthetics" is a reasonable argument, though...I mean, if HOAs can't restrict .......Of course, no one ever accused HOAs of being "reasonable!"


    While your comments on HOA's have merit, in this case it is
    not an HOA that is in question. It's the township's Board of
    Aldermen (equivalent to a City Council).

    John
  • jagec
    jagec Solar Expert Posts: 157 ✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"
    jcgee88 wrote: »
    A couple of corrections....
    While your comments on HOA's have merit, in this case it is
    not an HOA that is question. It's the township's Board of
    Alderman (equivalent to a City Council).

    John

    Gotcha...I guess my biases are showing.

    It's good that the installer only uses quality panels, but then we're back to the idea of a ~13 kW array that only covers "50%" of household usage. What do you have to do to get to 33,000 kWh a year? Are these guys smelting aluminum in their basement?
  • jcgee88
    jcgee88 Solar Expert Posts: 154 ✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"
    jagec wrote: »
    ...we're back to the idea of a ~13 kW array that only covers "50%" of household usage. What do you have to do to get to 33,000 kWh a year? Are these guys smelting aluminum in their basement?

    OK, I've been able to find out some additional facts.

    It's an 11kw system and is expected to generate 13,000
    kwh/year. That is about $1500 of electricity based on
    current St Louis, Missouri rates.

    The home itself is new, and of "green" design, including
    geothermal heating. Because the home has no history,
    it's anybody's guess how anyone (the reporter?) came
    up with solar covering 50% of his electricity bill.

    I live about 5 miles (and a million dollars :) from this guy,
    and his home is probably two and a half times bigger than
    mine. In 2008, the last full year before I started to do energy
    efficiency improvements, we consumed 15,300* kwh. So,
    notwithstanding that his home is more efficient than mine
    was, his using in the low-30,000 kwh/year is actually
    reasonable. No smelter required!

    *I've since gotten my net energy purchases down to
    ~6,000 kwh/year.

    John
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"
    jcgee88 wrote: »
    *I've since gotten my net energy purchases down to
    ~6,000 kwh/year.

    John

    Good for you! I've often wondered what people do with all that power. Our "new" house (we've had it for 1 year now) uses just under 6000 kW hours per year. So far I've only made one improvement; ditching the electric stove. Hot water heater is next to go, followed by the dryer. In contrast, our old All Electric house used 14,600 kW hours in the same time period. That's with only me there doing renos, and not being there for about 1/3 the time.

    Electricity is a lousy way to heat things! :cry:
  • jcgee88
    jcgee88 Solar Expert Posts: 154 ✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"
    I've often wondered what people do with all that power.

    In the year 2008 I cited, 1/3 of the electricity I used was
    consumed by A/C during June-July-August of that year.
    It is hot in St Louis in the summer!

    Two things contributed to my, in retrospect, rather high
    usage back then. First, power was rediculously cheap in
    Missouri, just 6 cents per kwh. Second, unless you were
    recording your consumption by hand, there was no easy
    way, like there is now with my utility's website, to know
    how much you were using on a monthly and annual basis.
    Not having a measurement is like driving down a highway
    without a speedometer...you'd have to guess your speed.

    When I took Quality Training, the very first concept they
    instill in you is that you cannot have a quality process if
    you don't have a metric to measure improvement.
    Electricity is a lousy way to heat things! :cry:

    It is also a crummy way to cool things, too. But, nothing
    better seems to be available.

    John
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"
    jcgee88 wrote: »
    It is also a crummy way to cool things, too. But, nothing
    better seems to be available.

    John

    Sure there is. It's called "Canada". :p

    We were running AC last year too; a bit unusual for our climate. So hot or igloos were melting! :p But the house is small and fairly well insulated so it doesn't take much. I do have to do something about the passive solar, though; we do not need heat gain in August!
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"
    Good for you! I've often wondered what people do with all that power. Our "new" house (we've had it for 1 year now) uses just under 6000 kW hours per year. So far I've only made one improvement; ditching the electric stove. Hot water heater is next to go, followed by the dryer. In contrast, our old All Electric house used 14,600 kW hours in the same time period. That's with only me there doing renos, and not being there for about 1/3 the time.

    Electricity is a lousy way to heat things! :cry:

    Electric Stove, Electric Dryer (wife hates Gas and if you can offset some CO2 so be it) , Dual 3 ton heat pumps for AC in AZ and occasional heating you can easily exceed 6000 kWH annually. I think we are pretty green in fact only used 1521kWh in Jan with some heating load while still spinning the meter backwards 121kWh. I am looking forward to March - May to rack up some credits for the cooling season.

    I do agree electric heating of anything is crazy, but happy wife happy life! :p We do have a gas hot water heater, but with the solar hot water heating, it seldom fires. The minimum connect charges for GAS here is $16.50 a month, and last month we used 2 therms from cloudy days I assume. It is almost crazy to have gas at all here, and the small amount of electric it would take a hybrid electric would have been a smarter choice if purchased at a reasonable cost. (they are about double a high efficiency gas unit to purchase). Still at the monthly cost to be connected to GAS it takes lots of months to justify the hybrid.


    Have to love the APS credit system on the kWh, still on the Feb 3 bill we had over $165 to use against about $25 per month in connection fees for the grid.
  • SolarLurker
    SolarLurker Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭
    Re: Conflicting rights: going green vs "eyesore"

    I didn't see the video, I read the article quick and for some reason I was under the impression the array was 900 feet long.

    I like the look of properly installed solar, however I have seen a few ugly installs.

    If a house is using a ground source heat pump, they may need a 7 to 9k array just to run the heat pump.

    I envy those of you that use so little electricity. We use from 1200 to 1600 a month.

    I believe the big energy hog is our ac unit, We installed a radiant attic barrier and more insulation in September, it will be interesting to see what next summer brings.