Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

hillbilly

I'm sure that I'm hardly alone in wondering what may be available in the future in terms of our ability to store energy. I've been wondering for some time about this, as to me it seems a key issue to address in terms of seeking to advance cleaner energy.

Currently the statistically low numbers of KWH being fed to the grid by PV, Wind, micro hydro, etc... make a small but direct impact in the amount of the KWH the grid needs to produce. But what happens if we ever had a majority of commercial and residential buildings contributing energy back to the grid?

Basically, during daylight hours PV arrays would be supplying X amount of energy to the grid, during periods of good wind there would be additional amounts... etc; but at some point there is still the need to produce energy from something like coal, nuclear, etc. So it seems that even if we were ever to produce enough energy from RE sources to average out to a net zero demand, unless we can somehow store that energy in efficient ways, we will still be highly reliant on other forms of energy.

Large scale Hydro is often touted for it's ability to produce large amounts of power on a short timeline to meet peak demands; but the water that will be used for power generation is also needed for many other things (recreation, irrigation, habitat/ecological purposes, etc). In other words there is a tremendous amount of "wasted water" here that must be release weather or not there is any demand to generate power from that water. Better energy storage could allow for power to be generated from this water too, and would allow for increased water storage savings at the same time. I know that some generating stations do use batteries to store energy, but it seems like with current technology there would be a lot of losses in doing so (hence there are not very many that do this)?

Probably some of you smart folks that frequent this forum know far more about these technologies, and the convoluted inner workings of the grid. I'm curious about what others think about what sort of role energy storage can/will play in this, and about any information/rumors about coming technologies for more efficient energy storage. NOT looking to debate "clean vs dirty energy", nor the politics that are intertwined with this; any who wishes too do so can start another thread for that.

P.S. mods, feel free to move this thread to another forum if this is incorrectly located in this board.

Photowhit

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

First ...Take a breath HillBilly, or rather let us take a rest.

If you add some breakes/paragraphs it give the eyes a chance to rest and makes it easier to read.

I think storage is coming along, As fossil fuel become harder to find I think the addition of renewable energy is important to bridge the gap, where we need the fossil fuels for low wind/over night use.

Battery tech is moving ahead. The lithium battery that has a finite life of 2-4 years will likely be replaced with a lithium iron? battery that will last 10-15 maybe 20 years.

Other technologys are moving along, such as the solar turbine plants storing heat during the day and running into the night.

AntronX

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Feeding directly to grid is still best option in my opinion. Let others take care of grid regulation and absorbing excess power. Few reasons why:

1. Utility companies will switch to quicker response generation technologies like Combustion Turbine power plants powered by natural gas, or coal syngas as in Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle plant.

2. Lithium-Phosphate battery grid storage and regulation. Distributed MW scale installations to soak up excess energy and feed it back into the grid when necessary. Flywheel storage is also being proposed.

3. Wide adoption of plug in electric vehicles with Vehicle-to-Grid technology, used to soak up excess power and possible feed some back if extremely necessary.

4. Smart Grid communication networking to make everything talk to grid operator.

Best analogy I can think of to describe today's grid, is cable TV providers. Information content goes one way, from creator to consumer. Electrical grid is mostly the same. What needs to happen is grid turned into internet model. Lots of small generators and consumers sharing their energy across a wide area network maintained by utility companies.

mike95490

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

If the big auto/oil companies ever allow mass production of EV's, your car, while plugged in, is a 100KWH battery, ready to support the grid:

(way back in 2005, this was implemented)
http://www.priups.com/exec-summary.htm

With "smart grid" a grid section close to overload, can command Air chillers be shut down, and if more is needed, the cars plugged into chargers, can be activated as a short term stopgap.

Solar Guppy

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/nov/24/andalucia-spain-renewable-energy-technology

This is the future for both solar electric on utility scale and for the storage concerns

These plants can run 24/7 as they use molten salt for storage, very efficient, closed loop, no fancy chemistry's of life cycles to be concerned with

"Molten salt technology is in its early stages but Abengoa is testing the idea at a power plant in Granada. So far the company has demonstrated that it is possible to store up to eight hours of solar energy by heating tanks containing 28,000 tonnes of salt to more than 220C. "This will make it possible to have almost constant production or at least it will be able to produce energy for most of the day," said Abascal."

We can power the entire world 20X just with the deserts in the southwest, let alone the US. This IMHO is the future combined with wind can replace our current means of power generation

hillbilly

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Just to be clear (sorry if my original post was disjointed); I'm not talking about individual storing their own energy for personal consumption so much as the grid having a way to store energy whenever it may be generated from any sources. In particular I think that this might be a rather substantial amount of energy from larger scale hydro facilities which often release quite a lot of water at times without generating power.

As for the whole smart grid, I don't know a lot about the details of how it may work. I'm not entirely sure if I like the idea of personal EV's being used as a grid support.

Guppy, I'll have to take some time to digest all of that article...
Cheers,
HB

EDIT: Guppy, I can't seem to get that link to load. Sounds very interesting though, lots of questions in my head. Anton, thanks for the links too... still sorting through all of them...

icarus

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

One of the the biggest single waste issues is the idling stand by capacity that is fired up, waiting for the peak load(s). This is where plug in Hybrid and EVs can serve as a huge battery bank, both buying and selling to the grid, evening out the demand, supplying power for those peak loads, allowing the idle, spinning capacity to be shut down. Idle, spinning generators are the most wasteful since they use much of the energy (be it hydro/oil/gas/coal etc) just to keep spinning waiting for the load. Reduce that capacity and replace it somewhat with plug ins and you save a ton of fuel.

Additionally, these plug ins can provide a huge battery bank for solar and wind to flow into at times of low demand, and they can even out the variances of solar and wind, such that if it is sunny in Oregon today, but cloudy in Utah, at least with in certain ranges, you can capture and use all the PV that is out there.

Tony

niel

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

"I'm not talking about individual storing their own energy for personal consumption so much as the grid having a way to store energy whenever it may be generated from any sources."

currently there isn't an electrical means of storage for grid power and the only other possibility would be a mechanical means of storing energy which would be largely limited in capacity and efficiency.

hillbilly

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Niel,
I was under the impression that there are some facilities that have battery storage here in the US. Anton sent a link about a company adding a battery storage facility in Chile. I just wonder how much loss there is with such facilities. I don't really know how prevalent that is, but I had thought that it was not a common practice (assumed it was due to poor efficiency).

Tony,
I could be wrong on this, but I had always heard that one of the advantages that *some* hydroelectric dams had was the ability to quickly ramp up and down (with many legal constraints) to provide power based on demand. I am almost certain that not all dams can do this, but I think that some are set up to do this precisely for the reason you bring up as well as the ability to hold more water in reserve for generation at a later date.

niel

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

batteries storing grid power would be huge. it's tough enough for the individual to come up with lots of battery storage, but for a utility to do it, it would be so minuscule in results for such a massive undertaking, whether in reality a utility did it or not. to me that would be like having the ability to pedal power a huge locomotive as it will contribute, but when the main power goes down it's useless.

icarus

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Hb,

You are right, and hydro dam can ramp up much quicker to load peak loads than steam fired plants, probably in a matter or a few minutes. A steam fired plant must be fired up hours in advance, and probably is "warm" all the time.

Peaks loads are pretty easy to predict, (Alarms go off at 6 am 5 days a week, coffee pots and tv's turn on, 7:30 the offices light up etc, etc, etc.) Knowing that allows the utility to tailor the load pretty well, but there always has to be headroom for the peak load. The great advantage of a "smart grid" is the ability of the utility to momentarily kill large non essential loads to cover the peak(s) Water heaters for example. If the utility could send a signal down the line, and turn off 100,000 water heaters for 20 minutes max, that 100k water heater load would equal ~2.5 megawatt is my math is anywhere near right. So to avoid keeping a 2.5 mw generator on line, a simple push of the button would cover the load. Most people wouldn't notice the loss of 20 minutes worth of water heating.

Neil,

Fyi, a Toyota Prius battery has a capacity of ~1.3 kwh. Not a huge battery by any stretch, but I think there are currently over 1 million Prius' on the road. If they were plugged into the grid 23/7, that would be ~1.3 million kwh/available for peak demand. (not counting draw limits/efficiencies etc)

We buy ~15 million cars in the US every year. If 1/2 of these were plug ins in 10 years we would be putting 7 million batteries in service that can be used for Pv storage net/net. 7 million a year, over ten years that is 70 million.

Folks who would never consider building an off grid PV system (or even a grid tie) now would hold the key to making Pv more viable. Between smart cars, and smart grids, the cars would bring a huge benefit to the grid. Park at home, the car knows that today is Monday, and that you need to drive 20 miles to work tomorrow before you can plug it in at the office. The car could buy power over night while it was cheap, but sell power back at 6 am to power the neighbourhood's toasters, all the while leaving enough energy in the battery to get to work. Plug it at work, and the car knows what to do. Absorbing potential solar or wind all day, selling when the loads (and the prices) were least.

The beauty (in my opinion) of plug ins and EVs is multifold. While they would increase the load on the grid they would be an even greater decrease in the use of gas/diesel just because electric motors are ~3 times more thermally efficient than internal combustion engines. By being connected to smart grids, being able to buy and sell as needed (on both sides of the equation) could provide a huge peak load capacity AND serve as the battery bank that allows solar and wind to even it's capacity out over the course of the 24 hour day/ 7 day week.

Tony

SolarJohn

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

While most of the ideas presented here are good, we really need to get people to stop wasting so much electricity. I'm currently living in a housing complex on a Navy base in Cuba, and I pay nothing for electricity. Although set-back thermostats are provided, I've noticed that most of the people here don't bother to program them. AC's run 24/7/365 in this tropical climate.

I think we need to wake people up to the importance of conservation, and those who are still too stubborn or selfish to make an effort should be penalized. I know that this comment won't sit well with some people, but I stand by it. Those who carelessly waste energy are stealing from my grand children.

John

hillbilly

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Solar John,
I totally agree with your points here, but I could see this being the start of that slippery slope into debating lots of other issues here. Nothing at all against that sort of debate; I like to dip a toe in such debates from time to time. I had asked that we could stay out of that particular type of debate for this thread so as not to get derailed into arguments over very politically (and emotionally) charged issues. I'd just like to ask again that we keep this particular thread "strictly business", and use other threads for expressing our feelings about conservation, clean energy, dirty energy, "climate gate" etc...

Thanks,
HB

tallgirl

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

icarus wrote: »

One of the the biggest single waste issues is the idling stand by capacity that is fired up, waiting for the peak load(s). This is where plug in Hybrid and EVs can serve as a huge battery bank, both buying and selling to the grid, evening out the demand, supplying power for those peak loads, allowing the idle, spinning capacity to be shut down. Idle, spinning generators are the most wasteful since they use much of the energy (be it hydro/oil/gas/coal etc) just to keep spinning waiting for the load. Reduce that capacity and replace it somewhat with plug ins and you save a ton of fuel.

Additionally, these plug ins can provide a huge battery bank for solar and wind to flow into at times of low demand, and they can even out the variances of solar and wind, such that if it is sunny in Oregon today, but cloudy in Utah, at least with in certain ranges, you can capture and use all the PV that is out there.

Tony

Spinning reserves aren't just there waiting for everyone to get home in the evening, turn on the A/C and cook dinner (or businesses to do business stuff). They are also there waiting for everyone to turn off the lights and go to sleep.

"Vehicle to Grid" is a scam. There is as much need to up-regulate the grid as there is to down-regulate it and no one is going to leave their car half-charged all the time, just so they can cover both up and down regulation.

And "Spinning" doesn't always literally mean "spinning". They are 15 minute reserves. If you can get your natural gas turbine up to speed, synchronized, and generating power in 10 minutes, you just leave it off all the time waiting on the call. Every single battery-backed system on the grid can be used as "spinning reserves".

mike95490

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

tallgirl wrote: »

"Vehicle to Grid" is a scam.

Says you. But as an emergency backup/stopgap, for a transmission line/substation/?? failure, if the system can hang on for the 15 seconds it takes to command the Parked/Plugged in vehicles to "backfeed/supplement" for 10 minutes, to keep a segment form going down, it's priceless.

Don't mistake it for a "daily" solution. It could be managed as the current Load Shed system is, you get a big discount, if your business can be "shut off" in emergency conditions, no more than 3x a year.
The tech has existed for 4 years, and ignored except for those who DID install a transfer switch, and use their car as a UPS.

But I'm afraid we won't see a critical mass of EV or plug-in hybrids, till oil goes through the stratosphere.

icarus

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Tall girl,

It seems that you are making two contrary arguments. Your are arguing in this thread that plug in cars are a scam, but on the "system design" thread you argue the great virtue of a battery based system over a grid tie system.

I disagree whole heartedly about peoples willingness to "leave their car 1/2" charged". The reality is, what we need is a smart(er) grid. (and smarter cars). What the average driver cares about is A: reliability, B: cost and C: ease of use. If the smart car/ smart grid is reliable, and the system is easy to use and it in the net/net is cheaper (going forward) then people will use it.

For example, With simple (way simpler to do that a TV remote!) programming the car can be set up to do what ever task is expected, with the default being "I need to get to work tomorrow at 8!). This can all be done to maximize the health of the battery, minimize the cost per mile of the energy and the reliability. None of this is Buck Rodgers technology either. Inverters, chargers, smart meters, PC interfaces etc.

I can also see simple 120/240 out ets nearly everywhere, offices/mall lots, parking meters in urban areas. Instead of these being metered and billed by the provider, they could meter through a smart card in the car, much like how you pay your tolls on the turnpike. Once again this is not rocket science. Is there some infrastructure changes needed? Sure, but we are talking a grid that already goes nearly everywhere.

By providing the ability of EVs/pluggins nearly everywhere, we can assure that they are plugged in most of the time. Most cars sit ~23/7, so why not provide for this potentially huge resource of energy storage to serve more than one function? It seems pretty simple to me.

Please explain further why you think this is a scam? Your last graph is perplexing:

"And "Spinning" doesn't always literally mean "spinning". They are 15 minute reserves. If you can get your natural gas turbine up to speed, synchronized, and generating power in 10 minutes, you just leave it off all the time waiting on the call. Every single battery-backed system on the grid can be used as "spinning reserves".

First, I don't believe that you can get a gas fired system up to temp and on line from a cold start in 10 minutes. (I confess that I know next to nothing, but intuitively, getting ambient water to steam boiling has to take longer than that) Then you sort of counter your own argument by saying that "every battery backed system on the grid can be used as "spinning reserve".

I believe that is exactly what I am suggesting.

Tony

hillbilly

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Tallgirl, I'm assuming that you have been referring to grid tie battery backed systems.
I'm not quite sure what would be better about using those batteries to provide reserve for the grid vs. EV batteries? Or did I totally miss your point here?
My main issue with using EV batteries or back up home battery systems for a grid reserve would be the use/wear and tear on personal batteries. They are a major investment, and I don't know how the use on them would be compensated (pennies per KWH?). I'm not totally dead set against it; I'd just want to see how the details would be spelled out.

BB.

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

A year or so ago here, I did a little workup just pricing the hardware and batteries for a battery off grid system that was charged by grid power... Assuming a 20 year life, just the hardware/battery costs worked out to around $0.45 per kWhr to just use such a system for buying cheap power at night and using to run loads during peak time during the day.

I am certain that large commercial load shifting/peak shaving systems can be made--At least for home sized systems, they don't seem to make a clear cost savings for most people.

In California, the costs are getting closer... Peak kWhr pricing is getting into the $0.60 (residential) to $0.75 (commercial) peak during summer time--but that is only if you use a lot of power and/or have "Smart Meter" Power plans... Even then, for off peak power you pay between $0.09 and $0.44 per kWhr (depending on rate plans and tier levels)... Add that in with the ~$0.45 per kWhr hardware costs--and it is very hard to even break even.

For a large consumer of electricity (i.e., heavy A/C or pumping in summer), one could end up spending $0.89 per kWhr in costs to "save" $0.60 per kWhr... At best, with smart rate plans, it would cost roughly $0.57 per kWhr to save a $0.60 per kWhr penalty price for summer peaks (20 days a summer, 2pm-7pm energy peak times)...

-Bill

icarus

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Hb,

The way the current generation Prius works, is that the ECU (computer) regulates the charge/discharge such that the battery never gets charged more than ~70%, nor discharged more than ~40%, keeping the NIMH battery in it's ideal charging range. As we go forward with EVs and battery technology maximizing theoretical battery life vs capacity will get ironed out.

Remember, if you are plugging in a EV to provide two way capacity to the grid, you are not asking the EV to provide power 23/7. What you are asking is that the EV provide power for peak demand, all the while keeping the vehicle battery in proper charge. I could envision a smart grid that has peak demands not only during certain hours, but during certain minutes in those hours. So the EV battery can supply a peak for a few minutes (or even seconds) of any given hour, can sit idle for some of the hour, and can charge for still other minutes of the hour. What this system does is offer tremendous flexibility to both the car owner, and by extension, the grid operator.

A related question is would you give up $1000 worth of battery life (Over the life of the EV battery) to save $2000 in energy cost to drive that car? To me it would be a nor brainer IF it were transparent and clear.

T

hillbilly

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Bill,
I hadn't even really put a lot of thought on costs yet. I suppose that any sort of battery storage (current technologies) would likely increase costs. All in all that kind of increases my curiosity as to potential future technological advances in energy storage.

I also think that here in California (and probably elsewhere too) there might be more compelling reasons in the short term: increasing demands for power that is mostly generated by hydro facilities, coupled with excessive demands on limited water supplies seem to indicate the probability of increased power shortages in the near future.
A couple of big drought seasons could easily leave our reservoirs with insufficient water to meet all demands. Department of Water Resources has issued a warning to California farmers that there will be substantial cuts in water this coming season (a bit odd to issue such a warning this early in the season). So if all dams were able to store the energy from each and every drop of water that flowed through their turbines, there could be substantial benefit both in terms of the quantities of energy as well as availability of water later in the summer/fall. I'm guessing that even if costs were dramatically increased, most rate payers would still pay to have that power when they need/want it. It does seem perhaps still too expensive and/or inefficient with our current battery technology... but who knows what tomorrow might bring.

hillbilly

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

icarus wrote: »

Hb,

A related question is would you give up $1000 worth of battery life (Over the life of the EV battery) to save $2000 in energy cost to drive that car? To me it would be a nor brainer IF it were transparent and clear.

T

Tony,
A fair point, that does make some sense (that's math even I can't really screw up). I think we're both in the same camp on the "IF it were transparent and clear" part; that's the big hesitation I have I suppose. This is mostly due to my lack of knowledge on the details of how everything would actually function with a smart grid... this was part of why I started this thread.
Cheers, HB

Solar Guppy

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

This idea will never, ever happen

Your suggesting one gives up the most expensive part of there vehicle so the grid can manage loads? even if they gave me all the electricity for free to charge my EV, it would never cover the value of the batteries if the use half the capacity to manage the grid. If it made financial sense, the power company would have the battery's!

icarus

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

SG,

I am loath to argue with you especially, but I think you are wrong on this. The difference is that folks don't care about the "cost of the batteries" in the real world. what they care about is "how much is it going to cost to drive my car X thousand miles, including fuel/repairs/depreciation etc."

Current cost of a Prius battery is ~ $1600 last I looked. Let's assume for the sake of this argument that a pure EV battery might cost say $3200. If I drive 100k miles and my cost would be $.25/mile with a conventional car, or net/net $.15 for a plug in, (including battery cost net/net) which would you do?

You're right, in that the utility doesn't want to own the batteries, since they can only use them for one thing, peak demand and or solar storage. The car owner on the other hand can use the batteries for a multitude of uses, including transport, as well as getting some benefit from the grid instead of just getting charged for the kwh. Let's also assume that I would agree to only give up 10% of my SOC at any one time to the grid. What would I be willing to pay in loss of battery life to get cheaper power for transport?

I think to dismiss the notion out of hand because of our own prejudices is short sighted. I too was very skeptical until I heard it explained by some engineers who are working on incorporating these very technologies.

To solve many of our energy/environmental problems is going to require people to think outside the box a bit. Folks like us who know just enough to be dangerous can push the envelope to some extent.

Tony

Solar Guppy

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Its not prejudice and I have followed the concept of EV since the 70's, its basic math.

First EV battery's not 3K, for the up and coming Chevy Volt, the battery is estimated to cost 8-10K for 16kw usable, which is probably about 2-3X less than anything on the market.

The life time, of any battery is based on charge cycles and depth of discharge, so one is suggesting to cut in half the battery life by sharing on the grid ... for napkin math say 4K of value and what does the consumer get for this generosity?

The Prius might have 0.5kWh usable, wouldn't make any difference even if every single household had one plugged in ... its a feel good forum topic, but fails basic math test.

So, what is the motive for someone to give 4K of value to the power company and cut the effective life in half for there new EV? Yah, they will sign up in droves for this.

As for Engineers who think this is the future, there is a whole class that think we are going to a Hydrogen Economy, pushed all the way to the top by our former president, 1st grade math shows why it could NEVER work, yet all the billions pushing that "outside the box" idea. What it really is, planned distraction for inaction.

I'm all for some fresh ideas of the future and how its powered. We already have the technology to power all the US from our deserts, 100% of the time using solar thermal towers with sodium storage for 24/7 operation.

Our future is not guided by our ideals or desires or even our abilities, it guided by profits. There is no technology reasons what so ever that our society can't be 100% RE today, now hows that for being out of the box!. Its all the decision makers have other motives and get what ever it is they want with the status quo.

BB.

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

One thing to remember is that the cost of gasoline contains a huge amount of direct and indirect taxes... Probably more than 33% right now in California. If you include Canada and Europe--the "price" of the fuel is only a fraction of the pump price.

For a while a few years ago, it was cheaper to buy fry-oil at Costco and put it in your diesel than to purchase diesel at the pump. And, at that point, we had some states checking tanks to see if the they were driving with untaxed fuels.

Plug-in vehicles make sense right now because there are no road taxes on electricity... And in the ideal situation, with Grid Tied solar, I can generate my own power without any taxes at all (no utility, properly, state/local/fed).

Pricing per mile seems to vary widely, from $0.012 to $0.10 per mile (PDF Download Oregon, equivalent to $0.24 to $2.00 per gallon gasoline tax (the $0.24 rate would equal the then 2003 tax per gallon of fuel. The $2.00 per gallon would be for a "congestion fee").

To a high (that a quick search showed from a 2006 Times Online UK article):

The M25, London’s orbital motorway, is likely to be considered as it has the worst congestion and traffic is continuing to grow rapidly. A fourth lane is being added to the remaining three-lane sections and one option would be to charge for access to the new lane at peak times. The trial would be a forerunner to a national charging scheme covering all roads, which the Government has said could be introduced around 2015. Congestion on motorways and A-roads would reduce by 34 per cent if charges of up to £1.34 a mile were introduced, according to a study published by the Department for Transport in 2004.

California is probably right now paying around $0.60 a gallon more than people in Oklahoma because of various regulatory, forced market, and even voluntary taxes... That does not even include the state and federal taxes (an royalty payments) that oil companies have to pay (and would probably need to be added to "non traditional" fuel sources to equal the current "infrastructure demands" already funded by our governments.


As soon as electric vehicles become "popular" (say over 10% of the traffic--government is gong to have to "do something" to make up for the losses in gasoline/diesel taxes and revenue.


Whether it is a GPS tax, a Electric Car Tax meter, toll roads, or whatever--it will happen.


Take the numbers of 100,000 miles driven for a vehicle (using California pricing for fuel and mid-level use of electricity). For a 20 MPG gasoline powered car:



100,000 * 1/20 MPG * $3.00 per gallon = $15,000 fuel costs per 100k miles



For an Electric Vehicle (assuming electric vehicle on city streets during commute congestion pricing):


100,000 * $0.10 per mile road tax = $10,000 road tax
100,000 * 0.4 kWh per mile * $0.29 per kWhr = $11,600 electric costs

===========================================
Total cost of fuel+taxes = $21,6000 per 100k miles


Just pulling numbers out of the air--but this is what the finances could look like in California if the average consumer paid average electric power prices and a per mile congestion fee using these proposals vs what we pay today.


Feel free to play with your what-if numbers... I would be interested to see how other view the issues.



-Bill

AntronX

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

BB. wrote: »

One thing to remember is that the cost of gasoline contains a huge amount of direct and indirect taxes... Probably more than 33% right now in California.

...

100,000 * $0.10 per mile road tax = $10,000 road tax
100,000 * 0.4 kWh per mile * $0.29 per kWhr = $11,600 electric costs

===========================================
Total cost of fuel+taxes = $21,6000 per 100k miles

...

-Bill

In your example, $0.10 per mile tax = 67% of the price of gas at the pump. That seems way too high, you yourself say 33%.

So, to correct for that, 100K miles = $4,950 "road tax"

Then, $0.29 per KWh is must be peak time rate. In Florida we pay $0.14 per KWH 24/7. Thus, 100K * $0.14 * 0.4 = $5,600

Total is $10,550

That's cheaper than gasoline powered vehicle.

Then don't forget about clean air credits and "zero-CO2" credits as well.

icarus

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

SG

You make some perfectly valid points. The question becomes, what is the real world loss of utility to a EV battery worth and what is the trade off worth. As I have said for years, collectively we have not been paying the "real" environmental costs of our energy choices.

The point I am arguing is that EVs are fundamentally more efficient (energy wise) than conventional cars. If some decrease in battery life comes at some decrease in the net/net cost of driving per mile, then people will be willing to do so.

It is not inconceivable to me that the price of batteries will come down, perhaps by an order of magnitude. Clearly, the current price that GM is willing to pay for batteries for the volt now, is probably not sustainable in the long term. I know that the retail price of the Prius battery has come down over the years. I also don't know if newer Lithium Ion batteries have the same sort of life cycle issues that FLAs/NiCd/NiMh batteries do.

Bill,

You are right in that we have to be able to tax KWHs used for transport. If we expect our roads to be built/maintained/plowed/etc. Once again, I don't want to get into a push/pull about whether government policy is good or bad, but clearly we need to pay for things! If it costs $.X a mile to service the roads, then tax it the same way we do gasoline/diesel etc.

IMHO, the price of all energy is going to do nothing but go up over the long term. Striving to use all energy more efficiently should be a matter of pubic policy.

Tony

AntronX

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

Tax on gas = 16% (national average, not icluding county and local taxes)

Source: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/gasoline_faqs.asp#gas_gallon_component

BB.

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

As I said, the numbers I used where based on California's (specifically, Northern California's PG&E) power rates... My own E-7 Time of Use plan ranges from $0.09 per kwhr off peak, baseline rates to $0.29 per kWhr for peak summer noon-6pm weekday rates).

For people that use ~600-900 kWhrs (200-300% of baseline) per month, the incremental rate is between $0.33743 off peak summer to $0.54742 peak summer... If you use anything more than a 300 kWhrs per month here--the rates become pretty scary (600-1,000 kWhrs per month seem to be pretty average here).

The equivalent flat rate E-1 Residential (same summer/winter rates, no time of day charges) for 200-300% of baseline (approx 600-900 kWhrs per month) is $0.38 per kWhr.

The $0.012 per mile rate was from Oregon DOT as their estimate of a $0.24 per gallon tax. The $0.10 per mile rate was their estimate of congestion charges they where proposing for use with the GPS based tax system...

The whole reason for the GPS taxing system was to do variable pricing based on when and where you drive and to capture the lost revenue from people driving more fuel efficient cars. From the Oregon PDF report I link earlier:

Oregon’s adventure in developing the Oregon Mileage Fee
Concept—the new revenue platform tested in the Road User Fee
Pilot Program—began during the 2001 Oregon Legislative Assembly. Early in the legislative session, members of the Oregon House Transportation Committee received the visual treat of a parade of alternative fuel vehicles developed by automobile manufacturers. The legislators examined early versions of the hybrid electric vehicle as well as cars fueled by natural gas, bio-fuels and an assortment of other alternative fuels, including a fuel cell concept car.

As the legislators toyed with these cutting edge vehicles, a question nagged at them—what would happen to state road revenues if Oregonians started buying and driving these new vehicles in large numbers? Aware of Oregon’s heavy reliance on gasoline tax revenues, they intuitively knew the answer—Oregon’s road system would be in jeopardy as the gasoline tax revenues necessary to maintain, preserve and modernize the system slowly but steadily drained away.

The $0.24 per gallon gasoline was for road taxes... Does not include income taxes, utility fees, environmental chargers, franchise fees, US Federal Taxes, etc...

The $0.10 was for local driving around cities... At this point, electric vehicles are not going to be very practical for long distance driving on "low fee" roads. And, I believed that the governments would not stop at 1.2 cents per mile with the GPS system--if that were the case, there would be no reason for GPS at all. They could simply require a certified Odometer for flat rate taxes.

Again, I am not saying that your interpretation is incorrect... But, in Oregon (and California helped to fund some the Oregon GPS studies), that was where they are attempting to head... To basically pull "fuel" out of the price of the equation and "equalize" road taxes between the hybrids/electrics and the SUV's. From ODOT GPS FAQ:

Why is it necessary to replace the fuel tax on gasoline as the principal source for funding our roads?

The state of Oregon is heavily dependent upon fuel tax revenues. For the year 2002, state and federal fuel taxes were 70 percent of total state revenue for roads. Our ability to pay for roads is at risk when fuel tax revenues begin to flatten or decline. Fuel efficiency of Oregon’s automobile fleet has eroded fuel tax revenues over the past 30 years.

Further improvement of automobile fuel efficiency, particularly with the adoption of the hybrid electric vehicle engine, will have an even more dramatic effect on fuel tax revenues in the not-too-distant future. The expectation is for a gradual decline of fuel tax revenues beginning in about ten years. This situation could accelerate if gas prices rise significantly due to world events

Why not simply raise the fuel tax on gasoline rather than go to an entirely new revenue mechanism?
From 1981 through 1991, the Oregon legislature passed several rate increases for the gas tax to solve pressing problems resulting from declining gas tax revenues owing to inflation and increased vehicle fuel efficiency. A growing population in the 1990s created severe stress on the road system. The legislature and Oregon voters rejected proposals to raise the gas tax to pay for needed improvements and delayed maintenance. While the Road User Fee Task Force is not proposing automatic inflation adjustments to the road revenue system, the task force believes that any new revenue system should be designed to eliminate the future effect of dramatic automobile fuel efficiency improvements of Oregon’s statewide vehicle fleet.

This is simply a plan to ensure that alternative and just plain more fuel efficient vehicles pay the same road taxes as anyone else. When road taxes (and other government revenues based on oil company profits and such are added in)--I would suspect that the GPS road tax rates will be much higher than the $0.012 that was proposed in this report (from 2003).

I am not arguing that electric vehicles are a bad idea... It is just that so much of our infrastructure and other government programs would be dramatically affected by alternative fuels.

I can buy a natural gas powered Honda and an in-home CNG compressor today--and avoid road taxes--at least for now. Hmmm, for some reason, the charges for Natural Gas used in my car is about 1/2 the charges for using Natural Gas to heat my home/cook my food (look at G-1 vs G-1-NVG)???? Does not make sense--maybe I am missing something.

-Bill

BB.

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

For California there is the $0.18 per gallon Federal tax, but we also have a series of sales and and other taxes (some voted approval by tax payers) for a total of 63.9 cents per gallon for gas and 72.0 cents per gallon for diesel (roughly 27% state and federal "road" taxes on gasoline... Not including local environmental fees/costs, income, and other taxes on energy businesses).

California would be very badly hurt by an all electric/alternative fueled vehicle fleet unless there was an alternative means of collecting taxes in some form or another.

My personal tin foil hat theory was that that California Government killed the mandated Zero Emissions vehicle requirement of last decade because they saw the tax revenue hit, and did not have any good way around it. I am sure that GM, Ford, et.al. also had some hand in it too...

-Bill

Cariboocoot

Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

In BC the price of gasoline is approximately 46% tax. No joke.

As far as the utility companies are concerned, they're not too keen on storing power in millions of individuals' private vehicles. The reason is that it adds further unpredictability to managing grid power. Will everyone plug in to charge at once? Or unplugged just when they need the extra Watts? The biggest problem utilities face now is this unpredictability and the problems with dealing with it. My brother-in-law writes programs for grid management, and a great deal of effort goes in to measuring usage and building models that can predict when extra power generating capacity needs to be brought on-line. This is also why they're not keen on too much grid-tie; they can't reliably predict when homeowners will be drawing from or giving to the grid.

For what it's worth, they are very much interested in finding efficient ways to store electricity as electricity instead of as potential kinetic or banked fossil fuels. There is a trade-off between the inefficiency of batteries vs. losses from other storage methods and their ability to be tapped quickly as needed. The salt storage is the most promising so far, but some type of super capacitor or 98% efficient battery would make everyone really happy.

Let's remember that despite the use of the term "storage battery" they do not store electricity. They produce it by a partially reversible chemical process.

Ever notice how massive power outages nearly always happen during extreme weather conditions? Everybody suddenly turns on the AC or cranks up the heat and ... pfft! No more lights.