Solar power Basics

D.I.M.1
D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
I'm working on a project see (Wind power help please!)
But that aside can anyone answer my questions:

What I the weight of the average solar panel?

How much do they cost?

Ratio of power generated to sunlight?

Process in which they convert light to energy?

Also, best angle for receiving power?

Thakyou and hope you can get back to me.
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Comments

  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Weight per panel varies with size. Mine are custom built and weigh about 25 pounds for 72 watts. Commercial weights may be between 25-100 pounds each, like I said, by size.

    Cost: Since I built them myself, an average of $140 each
    Bought commercially it varies greatly. I've seen them as cheap as $180 per panel for 75 watts and expensive as $800.00 for the same thing except different make/model.

    The size of the cells will give you certain volts/amps output. Bigger the cell, more power output. Mine are 4x4" cells: .5 volts each and minimal amps in full sunlight.

    There are a few different types of cells. Poly crystalline Silicon are abundant. http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/tf_polycrystalline.html

    How a solar cell works: http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blsolar3.htm

    Best angle depends on your climate and available exposure to the south. Most collectors are around 30-60 degrees angle. Some fancier systems follow the suns movement.
    Nature's Design & Green Energy on FaceBook : Stop by and "Like" us anytime.. Many up-to-date articles about Renewables every day.
    WWW.GreenAnything.Net    Ad free website.
    Lots of DIY Renewable Energy Projects on ETSY : Solar Panel builds, Wind Turbine builds, Rain Barrel build,etc.  
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    I'm Looking more so for solar panels that are practical for use on moving objects, and how much would be required to be efficient? Any suggestions? Also, what are the dimensions for them? LxWxH?
    Also, any other information that would be relevant for powering a moving object.

    GreenpowerManaic thank you very much for your reply.
    -D.I.M.:D
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar power Basics

    A solar panel costs, very roughly, $3-$5 per watt rating in larger sizes and with volume purchases.

    You can look at our host's website for pricing and suggested vendors.

    Here is a standard 175 watt solar panel spec. sheet. Others are going to be similar. Weighs around 33 lbs.

    In another thread, you asked about marine use--salt spray is a killer for aluminum frames and electrical connections... You would need to find a "marine" rated version for your needs (there are some--not sure if they are any better than standard shore versions).

    Remember too that this panels are 1/8" thick tempered glass panels. If this is on a sailing ship (guessing)--they need to be away from where lines and tackle can drop--and solar electric panels need to be shade free... Any shading will dramatically reduce power output (by 50% to near 100% if full shade).

    If this is an ocean going application (vs inland/bay use)--I would doubt that they would survive their first gale. Imagine mounting 2'x3' single pane windows on such a vessel. Wave and wind rip off metal deck hatches--let alone 1/8" window glass.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    A little "abstract reasoning" here:

    Based on the 175 Watt panel. 1 electrical HP = 746 Watts = 4.25 panels @ 33 lbs. each = 140.25 lbs. per HP
    And that's at 100% efficiency and just the panels' weight. An economy car has a power-to-weight ratio of around 20 lbs. per HP. Each panel is approximately 6 sq. ft. * 4.25 = 25.5 sq. ft. "Footprint" of a small car = 5' * 15' = 75 sq ft. The panels for 1 HP would take up 1/3 the area of the car.

    Want to see how bad it gets? Add the over-all efficiency of a solar conversion on a flat plane of about 50% - that is, the power is cut in half. Add the weight of the mounting, wiring, and other electrical necessities as well as the weight of the vehicle itself.

    This is why you don't see solar powered cars around.
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Cariboocoot does the weight of the panel require more power to move itself than the amount the panel produces? Also, consider the ocean, unlike roads which don't move by just gaining a certain amount of momentum, one could move at a constant rate of speed. I'm still looking into it.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics
    D.I.M.1 wrote: »
    Cariboocoot does the weight of the panel require more power to move itself than the amount the panel produces? Also, consider the ocean, unlike roads which don't move by just gaining a certain amount of momentum, one could move at a constant rate of speed. I'm still looking into it.

    How fast do you want to move it? Weight * Speed / 375 = HP needed (approximately). In theory you can move 20 tons with 0.1 HP (or any ratio) if you don't want to go fast. Consider a tractor: 8,000 lbs. plus load moved with 50 HP. But it doesn't go 60 MPH and it won't accelerate very fast either.

    As for moving through water vs. air, water is more difficult because it is denser. Part of a ship (even a hydroplane) is always in the water. Otherwise moving mass is moving mass: a certain amount of power is required to overcome the inertia, and then once momentum comes into play considerably less power is required to keep it moving. More power must then be applied to get it to stop (inertia again: Good ol' Isaac Newton!)

    At any rate, you still have the basic problem of loss of power from conversion.

    You know why we keep using fossil fuels? Because they're a very compact source of a large amount of energy. Even after losses, there's plenty left over to do the job.
  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics
    D.I.M.1 wrote: »
    Cariboocoot does the weight of the panel require more power to move itself than the amount the panel produces? Also, consider the ocean, unlike roads which don't move by just gaining a certain amount of momentum, one could move at a constant rate of speed. I'm still looking into it.

    It works that way in space, but not in the friction and surface tension of water.

    It's a takes a LOT more energy to plow though water than it does to roll down a road. An 80,000 lb. boat needs a couple of 500hp engines to move at even 1/4 the speed easily attained by any semi-truck of the same weight.

    I think you said you were looking to power a commercial fishing vessel from renewable energy...

    Well, here's a *little* one:

    http://www.maritimesales.com/HAR10.htm

    With a single 500hp engine it can do 9 knots. But forget about the motive engine for a minute and look at the generator specs..."3304 Caterpillar 106 KVA and 85 KW".

    Holey moley! Why so much generating capacity? Because you gotta keep the fish fresh and that requires a LOT of cooling. So not only do you have to move the hull itself around, but also have to power the *systems* installed on the boat.

    GOOD LUCK powering that with solar or wind. Oh...theoretically you could replace the fuel tankage with batteries and recharge them with solar and wind...but it wouldn't be commercially feasible because it would take soooo long to recharge with the small solar and wind systems that you might be able to fit on a little 75' fishing boat.

    And LOOK at that rig...I can see mounting a wind turbine on the bow, but there's little or no room to mount solar panels. At least with a semi-truck you could cover the tops of the trailers with solar panels - can't do that on a working fishing boat.


    With the small RE system you could fit to a commercial fishing vessel - you might be able to run a water-maker and a hydrogen generator:

    http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

    Then you could use the hydrogen to power an electric generator:

    http://www.axane.net/gb/products/commpac_base/commpac_base.html

    And you might be able to work it out so that the whole RE system produces maybe 1/4 of what you need to keep the fish cold...
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    dwh thank you, but for solar power, I'm thinking of creating a solar shell, or canvas.
    It will form a sort of shell around it to collect energy using at least 60% of the entire surface area of the vessel, of say around 30'-50' along with that I'm still bouncing the shape of the hull from either the traditional V-hull or a catamaran. Also, to incorporate hydro power the amount of drag provided by a turbine being used to rune the water being pushed against the vessel would be inefficient, instead using the turbine's weight to perform a function it will serve as the anchor, and if it is possible collect power by using under sea currents on the bottom of the ocean. The will be a funnel with a grate to prevent clogging, and ensure maximum flow intake. Of course this idea is all just conceptual, and I have absolutely no idea if it is even feasible, but the turbine anchor will be modeled after a fortress anchor, with a few modifications, the turbine will be attached to the top part and be covered to protect it.
    See link for image:
    http://images.doba.com/products/1508/26266.gif
  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Marine hydro generation isn't new at all - but they normally use wind to drive a sailboat and siphon off some of that energy to generate electricity.

    These systems *can* be used on a power boat to use water flowing past the hull to generate electricity...but why would you? It would be more efficient to just bolt an alternator onto the engine.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=j3B_0y_hVbsC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=trailing+log+generator&source=bl&ots=7188cDEhR_&sig=hxV70xLHZ7JJsxMdygzcKnjsWj4&hl=en&ei=jhXFStTNJpDAMKTckPMH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=trailing%20log%20generator&f=false
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Alternator?


    _________________

    My only goal in life is to get my questions answered myself before they get answer and I can't tell anyone.
    _________________
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Alternator. ;)

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Thanks.
    If you got any other suggestions or links that you think might help please post them.;)

    _________________

    My only goal in life is to get my questions answered myself before they get answer and I can't tell anyone.
    _________________
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar power Basics

    DIM1,

    That is a pretty open ended request... It sounds like you are still pretty young and are in school. If you have a chance--take some sort of electrical/shop class.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    B.B.,
    You're very perceptive yes I am a student and very young, but it is the young that have imagination, but the older whether it be by 1-50 years more that knows how.
    I honestly don't have the time for such a class unless there is one that I could take on the weekends. But I'm still searching the web for answers from forums, republished documents, in the library, and here, which has been an enormous help (I'm no over exaggerating). So, thank you. If I have any other questions that come up while researching than I'll post them. But B.B. you're right it is open-ended so to be more specific any links about the current specs of solar panels out there, that includes their weight, dimensions, and ratio of producing energy.

    Today's Question:
    Does anyone know a solar power expert I can email to become my adviser?


    _________________

    My only goal in life is to get my questions answered myself before they get answer and I can't tell anyone.
    _________________
  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics
    D.I.M.1 wrote: »
    but it is the young that have imagination, but the older whether it be by 1-50 years more that knows how.

    Sorry, but that's pure bunk.

    The more you learn/know, the better you are able to imagine. Being young with limited knowledge means that you also have a limited ability to imagine. The young tend to imagine broad concepts and ideas and think that they have a super-powered imagination.

    You can imagine this: "solar powered commercial fishing vessel". That is a broad concept. Broad concepts are easy to imagine, anyone can do it. Here's another: "commercial fishing submarine". See? Nice broad concept, easy to imagine.

    The hard part is to imagine the details - the solar panels, the batteries, the freezers, the bow thrusters, the coffeepot, the radios, the worklights, the bilge pumps...etc., etc., etc.

    You cannot imagine all of those details, because of limited knowledge. Does that mean you have a weak imagination - no, it means that you don't know enough to really *use* whatever imaginative ability you have.

    If you take the broad concept of, "solar powered commercial fishing vessel" and present it to a Naval Engineer, he (or she) will immediately be able to imagine that ship - and he will imagine it WAY better than you can, because she has the knowledge to build a better mental picture than you do.


    I just turned 49 years old this past Saturday the 3rd. I began writing science fiction 3-4 years ago. The more knowledge and experience I accumulate, the more powerful my imagination.


    As Rocky Balboa said to Mason "The Line" Dixon - "Don't worry, you'll get there."
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Okay, okay I was wrong, but still I hope my Idea pans out, and again does anyone know an expert that might be willing to be my adviser for my project? I'm getting kind of desperate. Like does anyone know a nave engineer I could contact? I would be grateful like more so than before. Also, the young can be narrow minded in perceptions,but the more you learn the limits that are imposed on you thought patterns, Unless you don't stop questioning what you believe to be true.
    _______________________________________________________________

    The off topic stuff:
    In my spare time I write out theories explaining why the laws of physics exist?
    Seriously they shouldn't but the do.
    If an objects positive and another is negative than they should just remain so, there isn't a universal need to be stable if the can exist as such.

    Also dwh, if your into sci-fi check out Jack McDevitt, He's my favorite sci-fi author.
    I also write leisurely and congrates on turning 49. I turned 17 on the 17th of September.

    People in general don't like to question things that make them uncomfortable, like why? what is the purpose and all that? I'll do that and more if only to find the truth.
    _______________________________________________________________

    For future posts, please label the off topic stuff in a separate area, and below the serious information that way it's a bit more organized and more easy to find information.

    -DIM

    _________________

    My only goal in life is to get my questions answered myself before they get answer and I can't tell anyone.
    _________________
  • sub3marathonman
    sub3marathonman Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    OK, I'm not going to get into a debate with that "young guy" dwh about these young guys and imagination, since I turned 49 well, at least six months before last Sept. 3rd. :roll:

    BUT, here is someone who is at least trying to get a bit of solar power to move a Prius, at least for several hundred feet more than if it didn't have the panels. OK, actually 215 watts will move a Prius about a mile, so maybe it would get three or four miles extra per day.

    http://green.autoblog.com/2007/05/31/putting-a-solar-roof-on-your-prius-go-20-miles-on-battery-powe/
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Thanks I hadn't considered looking at Prius cars for power saving on a boat.
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Lightning Power?
    Would it be possible to harness power from lightning and siphon off part of the bolt into the power reserves and send the excess into the ocean?
    This might be the wrong forum to ask this but whatever I think your input is worth asking for.

    Anyway I would have uploaded the basic plan for my design if the forum's picture limit wasn't so irritatingly small.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar power Basics

    There is, roughly a 100-300 volt per meter electric field gradient, in clear weather, around the entire earth... Which goes up dramatically during electrical storms.

    And there is lots of energy in storm clouds (one report says a single storm could power the entire US for 20 minutes)...

    Of course, you have to have a storm. And you have to collect the energy with a cable up into the storm (storms are 40,000+ feet high).

    Then there is capturing the energy (measured in millions of volts and thousands to hundreds of thousands amperes) in less than 1 second to release for hours or days later...

    At this point in time, there is just no practical (and safe) way to collect and harness this energy--let alone do it "on demand".

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Didn't Baron Victor Von Frankenstein do this? :p

    Seriously, let's remember that we still haven't achieve Tesla's dream of 'broadcast power'.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    lightning power? the only thing that might get you is killed. ben franklin only received a small jolt from emp as a full bolt would've killed him. even if you avoid the killing part, just how do you plan on harnessing lightning?
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    No idea, that was just a random idea.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    IT'S ALIVE!

    Tony
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    or is it dead?:confused::cry::p
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Oh, wait, no its dead the mob of angry forum people chased it to a windmill and burned it alive. :cry::cry::cry: I'll always remember the day, cause that when my hopes and dreams were killed. J.K.

    Anyway back on topic,
    What is the largest electrical power storage unit? How much electrical energy can it hold? Or ratio of size to power stored?
  • D.I.M.1
    D.I.M.1 Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    You're a solar R&D expert Solar Guppy?
    Using my long overly-worn question would you like to be my adviser?
    I'm kind of desperate at this point, and stupid for not googling it.
    -DIM
  • GreenerPower
    GreenerPower Solar Expert Posts: 264 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics
    D.I.M.1 wrote: »
    ...What is the largest electrical power storage unit? How much electrical energy can it hold? Or ratio of size to power stored?
    The sun, I believe (within our solar system). Be able to harness its energy and convert to electricity effectively is a challenge. Other than that, materials like coal, gasoline, NG et al. all hold energy that could be converted to electricity. Having high conversion efficiency is a challenge. Nuclear power is a fairly successful one. Next is chemical/electron exchange processes (batteries, fuel cells) ... and yet to be invented ... di-lithium crystal chamber :confused:.
    GP
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar power Basics

    Dyson Sphere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere Complete capture of star's output power! But it's not Storage, it's just a runaway Fusion reactor
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,