"SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭✭
Does anyone have any experience with the 'wet NiCad' batteries that SAFT makes? They use a KOH (Lye) solution rather than Sulphuric acid as the transfer medium.

I have an opportunity to get some 100 Ah 1.2 v units at a very good price.
Plan to use them for a ' lights only ' installation in the guest house. Lights to be 12v LEDs. , room 16 ' x 18 ', light seasonal use.

Just received the 'reconditioning procedure ' for these from a Canadian rep for SAFT. Interestingly they recommend, after discharging , to

'Charge by constant current at 0.2C5A for seven to eight hours at +20ºC +-5ºC. If a constant voltage charger is used, the battery bank can be split in half and each half charged separately in order to achieve a constant current charge'

any comments will be useful.
thanks,
Eric
 
KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada

Comments

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    i know what the .2c is, but i'm not sure of the 5a afterward. c is the ah capacity and .2 of that is the current charge rate of 20%. these batteries are to be charged with a steady current rather than a constant voltage, but they are giving as an alternative a way to do it with a constant voltage(current tapers with constant voltage). i have generally understood that upon reaching 1.4352v/cell with constant current charging that the cell is considered charged and don't ask me to dig into my memory bank as to where i got that from as i forgot and i can't verify it. do note that these cells can gas too when overcharged and i don't know if they set them up like the vrla type batteries that you cannot replace the electrolyte or if you can top it off. many would be surprised to know that even the small aa nicd batteries have a vent and these are ruined if popped open.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    thanks Niel,

    the C5 refers to the 5 hr rating for these batteries. Not sure why 5 , the French must have developed their own rating system back when the NIFE (Ni Fe) batteries were first used in early 1900 electric cars. ???

    this is where I found the reference to C5, on page 8

    http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Documents/stationary/Cube782/com_sph_en_0407.43675bb8-d104-4513-91c5-43ad119b9bb8.pdf

    yes , I'm aware of the gassing off issue They claim the vent caps are 'flame arresting' page 6, makes me think there should be a 'venting system ' used to minimize risk..??

    they go to lengths to clarify how to top up the electrolyte, with distilled or demineralized water.

    I am estimating from the page 10 discharge table, that I can safely use about 500 w per day and stay just below a 30 % DoD using the 8 hr discharge value
    ( 12.7 a x 12 v = 1524 W * 30 % = 508w) and I would be "lighting up the city" with LEDs to get to that value...

    Eric
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,281 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    "Wet" ni-cads are often used in aircraft.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • peakbaggerpeakbagger Solar Expert Posts: 333 ✭✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    One thing to be aware of is getting rid of large nicad batteries are difficult in many areas. The cadmium content makes them classified as hazardous waste and they have to be disposed of at special facilities. The small cells used in power tools can be turned into be recycled at a home center like Home Depot, but they will not take the big ones.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    thanks guys, good info...
    just to add a bit of info, some of this batch of batteries was pressed into service about 4 years ago in a radio repeater with solar charging, and to date there have been no failures, so I am hopeful that I will get similar service.
    The remainder of the batch has been periodically recharged, not sure of the ' quality' of the recharge regimen as the fellow that has them wants any recharge data I get so that he can 'do it right'.

    From what I have been able to get from a very helpful SAFT rep,
    the batteries are > 30 years old, as their product books go back that far and they are not shown...
    they are good for > 20 years
    They are 100 Ah ...
    a similar 2 cell 'block' sells for ~ C$ 470.....ouch! x 5 = 12 v double ouch
    charge rate: float 1.42 v, bulk 1.5 v
    top up fluid includes Li Hydroxide
    functional to - 20 C and below but there is a sharp drop in capacity. with no heat in the cabin I doubt if there will be a need for the lights...

    Looks like with some prudent conditioning/ testing, a 10 cell string will be worth the effort..

    Questions?
    Eric
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    so did not the guy with the repeater tell you how he had charged them and with what? i guess that also blows what i heard long ago about a max of 1.4352v/cell, well at least for these nicads anyway. nice size batteries too so let us know how well they do for you. btw, if they are like other nicads, they won't hold their charge long, aka, short shelf life.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    don't know what happened to my rely last night???

    More tot come as I get it..

    Eric
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,281 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries
    westbranch wrote: »
    top up fluid includes Li Hydroxide

    So you don't use pure water to top off with ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    Hi Mike, I found that little tidbit in one of the tech docs I read. Here is one of the sections , only H2O used...

     Periodic topping-up with distilled or demineralized water to the maximum level when charged. (Filling pistols are available).

    this is the common statement in most of the docs.

    I was advised that I should use the SBL 102-2 specs as this is probably the closest to the SAFT ??? "100" cells I have.

    In the SB type cells doc I read, for SBL type cells, that E22 solution is used for the initial fill and if needed another solution E13 can be used. then "See Electrolyte Instructions" but that is in a different doc..???.

    I still have not found the specific reference, read a lot of links yesterday... but it has to do with carbonation &/or low temperature performance, as I remember, I think...
    carbonation comes from exposure to air, which is limited by application of a thin layer of oil on top of the electrolyte.


    more coming
    Eric
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • WindsunWindsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    Be aware that those pocket plate nicads can be horribly expensive to get rid of if you ever need to, since the Cadmium is not very people friendly stuff.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    Erik,

    I know this is a very old post but I have interest in some SAFT 100 Ah 1.2 v wet cells. Do you know of anyone who has some? Need them for an EV project
    Thanks,

    Stephen
    westbranch wrote: »
    Does anyone have any experience with the 'wet NiCad' batteries that SAFT makes? They use a KOH (Lye) solution rather than Sulphuric acid as the transfer medium.

    I have an opportunity to get some 100 Ah 1.2 v units at a very good price.
    Plan to use them for a ' lights only ' installation in the guest house. Lights to be 12v LEDs. , room 16 ' x 18 ', light seasonal use.

    Just received the 'reconditioning procedure ' for these from a Canadian rep for SAFT. Interestingly they recommend, after discharging , to

    'Charge by constant current at 0.2C5A for seven to eight hours at +20ºC +-5ºC. If a constant voltage charger is used, the battery bank can be split in half and each half charged separately in order to achieve a constant current charge'

    any comments will be useful.
    thanks,
    Eric
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: "SAFT NIFE" brand batteries

    Stephen, I am sorry I do not. Where are you located?
    there might be an SAFT rep local to you that might have a lead.

    Eric
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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