New Stacked SW4048 won't work together

wkingstonwkingston Posts: 7Registered Users ✭✭
I purchased two new systems to stack together.  I followed the installation and wiring instructions in the SW4048 manual for a Dual Inverter System Renewable Energy (Solar).  I used two sets of  Conext SW4048 inverter, MPPT60 Charger, 3k Solar Panels.  I used 16 VMAX XTRD200 batteries wired for 48VDC. I used two Conext Battery Monitors.  I stacked the units just like the manual recommended.  I connected the DC circuits with two Conext DC switchgears.  I connected the AC circuits to a Conext AC Switch-gear.  I'm not using a generator, but wired the AC Switch-gear to the grid main panel.  I installed a 100A Square-D sub-panel for my loads.  I have an SCP and Combox installed.  I followed the "Testing Your Installation", and every thing worked great.  I configured for 240 Split-Phase.  Everything seemed to work great until I tried to operate both SW4048 at the same time.  I keep getting a fault "ID 72, Check AC Associations" no matter what order I start them in.  I can set #1 as Master, them #2 as slave.  As soon as I set #2 to Operate, both SW4048's fault out with same error.  When I reverse the order (#1 Slave, #2 Master) the same thing happens.  I can run either one by itself, but not both.  I started with AC Associations: AC Out - AC Load 1, AC In - Grid 1.  I tried several different combinations, but always get the same error.  What am I doing wrong, or what can I check for?  Any help you can provide would be appreciated.


Comments

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,634Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    I don't know this inverter, so generic comment only.

    To me, master/slave implies the inverters are set up for parallel 120v operation, in which one inverter (slave) sleeps at low power until called upon by the master to service an increased 120v load. I have my Outback pair so configured.

    Another configuration would be a 120/240 series pair, in which each inverter supplies AC sync'd to 180° phase shifted to the other, 240v live to live, and 120v live to neutral. Either both inverters sleep, or none do, so there is no "master" as such. If you're designating a master, this makes me think it may be set for parallel rather than series operation. FWIW.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • wkingstonwkingston Posts: 7Registered Users ✭✭
    It is designed to be wired in parallel configuration with the Master controlling most operations.  My understanding of the slave is that it will share the load (AC & DC) when needed.  The system is wired in a "Split-Phase", 120/240 configuration.  They can also share the load of charging the batteries, but I turned off the charger function.  I don't plan to use the utility company to charge my batteries except in an emergency.  So, basically it is setup for an off-grid operation. 
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,066Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    There was no mention but did you use the stacking kit? https://www.solar-electric.com/schneider-electric-sw-conext-ac-stacking-kit.html
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,798Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12 #5
    a) go to the Schneider website and download the latest firmware and load it via combox and uSD card, to all your gear, SCP, Combox, MPPT controllers, Inverters.  Remember when upgrading the inverters, the AC will shut down, but the Xanbus will still power the combox (If I recall correctly)
    1) use the SCP to monitor things with.
    2) get the combox talking to a computer, and use the computer to program the settings for dual inverter, much easier than punching keys on the SCP


    CHECK AC ASSOCIATIONS might mean  L1 & L2 got reversed somewhere.   Call Schneider and see what they say, or call the vendor who sold you the gear, they should provide support for a new install.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,634Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    > @wkingston said:
    > It is designed to be wired in parallel configuration with the Master controlling most operations.  My understanding of the slave is that it will share the load (AC & DC) when needed.  The system is wired in a "Split-Phase", 120/240 configuration.  They can also share the load of charging the batteries, but I turned off the charger function.  I don't plan to use the utility company to charge my batteries except in an emergency.  So, basically it is setup for an off-grid operation. 

    In parallel, current adds, voltage stays the same; you can run twice the amps at 120v. That's where the master/slave comes in. You could run 10 inverters in parallel (if supported) in parallel; you'd get 10x the current (amps), but still at 120v. As 120v load increases, the master gets each slave to incrementally add current to support the load.

    In series, voltage adds, and current stays the same. You get the same amps at 240v (line to line, 180° out of phase). With two inverters in series, there is no master. Each inverter just makes sure its AC waveform is 180° out of phase with its twin.

    There are more complicated systems where masters in parallel with slaves bring them on to service high leg loads, and are in series with another parallel stack doing likewise, but these would involve stacks of 4 or more inverters.

    With 2 inverters, I suspect it would be a parallel master/slave (120v) system, *OR* a series 120/240v split phase system. If wired for 120/240v split phase, you likely need to set the inverters for series operation IMHO.

    I run 240v loads with an autotransformer on parallel stacked inverters, but that's another conversation.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,901Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    This is pretty easy if you have alot of time to read the manual or have been trained to use this equipment. I am not trying to make this harder than it has to be or to insult you.
    What are the device numbers of the two inverters?  Hint !  Look at the HVMPPT's below.

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,066Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12 #8
    @Estragon said 
    In parallel, current adds, voltage stays the same; you can run twice the amps at 120v. That's where the master/slave comes in. You could run 10 inverters in parallel (if supported) in parallel; you'd get 10x the current (amps), but still at 120v. As 120v load increases, the master gets each slave to incrementally add current to support the load.

    In series, voltage adds, and current stays the same. You get the same amps at 240v (line to line, 180° out of phase). With two inverters in series, there is no master. Each inverter just makes sure its AC waveform is 180° out of phase with its twin.


    The statement  regarding  voltage/current is correct, just the last two sentences may be misleading to some reading this. Running inverters is series is not a practice I would recommend. 
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,634Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    To be clear, I'm not suggesting inverters be in series unless they're designed and configured to do so.

    I decided to run my Outbacks in parallel and use an autotransformer to run 240v loads, but they can be configured in series and wired for 120/240v split phase.

    If these inverters aren't designed for series operation, I definitely agree it shouldn't be attempted.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,901Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    You would not use a CSW split phase or a non north american CSW inverter in series like you would the Outback inverter you have.
    You could if you wanted 480V

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • wkingstonwkingston Posts: 7Registered Users ✭✭
      Reply to mcgivor: Yes, I did use the recommended Conext AC Stacking Kit.  However, mike95490 got me thinking.  I bought the wiring in all the recommended colors according to the Conext wiring diagram (black, red, white, green) to wire up the AC Stacking Kit.  I was trying to prevent getting any wires crossed.  If any of you have tried to wire up a Conext AC Stacking Kit, you will find that there really isn't enough room inside of it to terminate and route all the wires.  I unmounted the circuit breaker DIN rail, and pulled it partially out to access the terminals on the back.  It looked worse than a "rats nest" when I was done.  However, as much as I tried to keep the wires in the right place, I may have crossed the L1 and L2.  I'm going to go check as soon as this thunderstorm lets up so I can get to the "Solar Shed".  Thanks.

      P.S. I did contact Schneider Electric tech support a week ago.  No reply.  That is why I decided to post on this forum.  I bought some of my system from this company.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,901Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    If you contact Schneider they will give you a case number. Without that in your e-mail subject they will not respond.
    The XW+ is a much better choice than stacking smaller inverters. Much more room and less of a balance problem with L1 and L2.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,699Super Moderators admin
    Many vendors work better with a phone call to tech support first--Then start using email if helpful (logs, pictures, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • wkingstonwkingston Posts: 7Registered Users ✭✭
      Well, darn.  I went back and double checked all the wiring, AC & DC, against the wiring diagrams for a dual system.  All check out.  I even disconnected all the wires from the inverters and Meg tested the wires to make sure there wasn't a short somewhere.  After I turned everything back on, I factory rebooted all devices.  Still same problem.   I also made sure that all devices have the most current firmware.  Oh, and yes I did contact Schneider Electric by phone, and they did give me a case reference number that I have used in all emails to them.  Still no helpful reply.  Just courtesy - we got your messages.

      I started out with just one SW4048 complete system.  Since the specs said that I could expand it, I waited until I had the money to add the second system piece by piece.  I didn't want to finance any of it.  Once I had all the pieces, I went to start up the second SW4048, but have been fighting it ever since.  I'm about ready to rip it out, and switch to a single XW+ system, even if I have to finance it.  It's just that the specs say it should work, if I can find out what the issue is.  Thanks for the input.

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,901Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12 #15
    What was the answer to post #7 please? It does work and there are thousands of them out there and several by yours truly!

    There is very little chance that Schneider or Outback would do much more as they have people like me who do this and installation is not really what they want to do. As you said they are courteous.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • wkingstonwkingston Posts: 7Registered Users ✭✭
    Sorry that I didn't get back to Dave Angelini right away.  I had some other problems to chase down at home before I got back to this.  I don't have the "Bridge" device as shown in post #7.  The closest I have is the Conext Battery Monitor.  Hopefully this answers the question.  If not, please let me know.  Thanks for your help.



  • wkingstonwkingston Posts: 7Registered Users ✭✭
    Well I have a update.  Schneider Electric just sent me an email with a firmware update for the SW4048.  It is too late to try it today.  So, first thing tomorrow I'll try the firmware update.  I'm quoting from the email: "Since you've already tried a restore to defaults, it's clear that the issue is with the firmware in your inverters. You'll need to use your ComBox to upgrade the firmware on both units to 3.10, which will resolve the issue."  The latest firmware version I found on the website is V3.08.  I'll post the results later. 
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,066Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    My understanding is each device on the Xanbus must have a different ID#, from 00 to 31 to avoid conflict, my suggestion would be to assign a unique number to each device.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 230Registered Users ✭✭
    I have an sw 4024 and the firmware is v03. 08.  I wonder if there is a v03. 10 for the 4024 as well? It's not on the site and there is nothing in the release notes. Do you have the list of supposed fixes that v3. 10 gives? 
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,901Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    mcgivor said:
    My understanding is each device on the Xanbus must have a different ID#, from 00 to 31 to avoid conflict, my suggestion would be to assign a unique number to each device.
    Not really true!   Each device of the same model must have a unique number. The OP is good here! 

    Remember when you do the firmware the inverter will shut down so do one at a time and disconnect the other from xanbus. If you have grid power no big deal. 
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,066Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13 #21
    Won't argue with you Dave, you obviously have way more experience, but you have to hold your cards close, being in business and all, nice of you to drop hints, I'm sure they will help, indirectly.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,901Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    I do try and give general help but I add value to my clients in many other ways besides holding my cards close B)
    I have the opportunity to work with some amazing people all over this planet. The friendships make it all click!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • wkingstonwkingston Posts: 7Registered Users ✭✭
    Well, I installed the new 3.10 firmware several hours ago.  So far everything is working with no faults.  I even reversed the Master and Slave inverters in the configuration with no problems.  Monitoring the system from both the SCP and Combox shows everybody happy.

       There's only one caveat though.  When I uploaded the firmware to the first inverter (original Master), I had powered down the #2 inverter (original Slave) just so that I was dealing with one at a time.  After the firmware uploaded into the Master, it rebooted OK.  I set it to Operate.  Everything worked great.  Then I reversed the procedure.  I powered down the Master, turned on the Slave.  It powered up OK (lights included).  I set it to Standby.  After the firmware uploaded into the Slave, it rebooted OK.   I set it to Operate.  Everything worked great.

      However, when I looked at the front panel, the only light on was a flashing Fault light.  I said wait a minute, the Combox reports every is OK, and running with no faults or warnings.  Even the AC IN light was not lit.  So, I use my meter to verify all power AC & DC going in and out of the inverter was OK.  So, I shut down the entire system, then went to lunch.  I wanted to make sure everything had powered down.  When I powered up the entire system, everything worked great, except the #2 (Slave) inverter had no lights at ALL.  Combox and SCP says everything is OK.  I shutdown, and restarted everything two more times.  Same thing.

      I don't know if it is a coincidence that the lights failed while upgrading the firmware, or if maybe this inverter has an issue that was causing my other problem all along.  The frustrating part is that now the system is working great, just no lights on inverter #2.  I'm going to contact Schneider Electric.

    In answer to post #19, the only thing they sent me was the firmware binary file, and a copy of the instructions for uploading the firmware.  There was no list of fixes included.





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