Solar installation for vertical water pump HELP!!!

con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
edited May 9 in Solar Beginners Corner #1
So im in the military and i got tasked of installing a solar panel for a vertical pump...please look at my diagram that i simplified for the LT's
 the vertical pump is: 1.8 kw, 220-230 v,2.hp, 50hz
inverter i have is: Model 3k-sm ,max input 500vdc, max pv current 13a,isc pv 15.6....output is 230v, 50hz outpu 14AMPS, max ouput 3000WATTS


the image is in"  https://imgur.com/a/UhuXRx5
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Comments

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,229Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9 #2
    I don't see a battery bank in the diagram. The solar panel won't produce nearly enough power to even run the pump, let alone handle the starting surge load. The size of the battery bank would depend on the expected run time for the pump between charges, and the size of the solar array will depend on this load and the time available for charging.

    If the pump runs for a short time once a week, a smaller bank and single panel may work. Running for several hours daily would need a large battery bank and an array of solar panels. More info is needed to quantify.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 879Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Are you sure this inverter isn't a grid tie inverter? 500 Vdc. would be one helluva battery bank.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,229Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    http://www.easunpower.com/content/?928.html

    I'm assuming the inverter is as described in the link above. It appears to have an integrated charge controller (500v string max) and 48v DC/AC inverter with 6kva surge max.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 879Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    The specs I'm looking at show 145 max. Voc. The site is a bit wonky, trying to navigate around looking for the 500 volt spec.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    ok, so this system will be installed in africa, no battery.... so the pump only runs on day time. how will i know its grid tie? inverter is going to purchased in africa locally, and i will have 15 cells . sanyo pmax 225w, 5.66A, voc 53.0V , ipmax 5.21A, vpmax 600v  
    (model number HIT-N225A01). geeez i got no idea what im doing.
  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,612Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    A 230V, 2hp pump is going to consume a lot of power.   Lets say that again,   A LOT OF POWER

    Here's a shot of a major (80% of installed base in NA) from Franklin Electric

    baseline is 3,000 watts, starting is going to need 14kw.    Then adding the pwr factor of 86 (not bad)
    the system has to supply 3.5kw into the motor, and that's before any inverter and wiring losses.
    You would need about a 5kw PV array and only be able to run the pump 4-6 hours on a sunny day
    And about 400Ah of batteries to keep the inverter happy and running.


    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    edited May 9 #9
    So my 15 cell not enought? will 16 cell enough? there is a existing pump on the same site and it is working fine.  https://imgur.com/a/1gGrZ2P..   so please explain how can i make this pump work, what do i need, please break it down to like a 3rd grade student....im bad
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,354Super Moderators admin
    I don't have any answers for you yet--But here are some links that (hopefully) will give you some information so you have a better handle on the questions and answers:
    Re: Working Thread for Solar Beginner Post/FAQ

    Some discussions about VFD (Variable Frequency Drives)... Basically a variable frequency inverter with (typically) three phase output. Used to soft start motors (handy for 3 phase well pumps, or pumps with well head starting capacitor) and can also turn an AC motor into a variable speed motor (very handy for pumping applications).

    WELL PUMP and Inverter QUESTION

    Wind/solar for large scale pumping etc (out of my depth!)
    could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC (new link/thread 10/27/2012)
    Help required to design off grid system (information on possibilities to connect "standard VFDs direct to solar panels) (new link 1/13/2013)

    And from a new poster, link to solar VFD (looks interesting):

    VeichiElectric said:
    u really should read this article about solar pumps: http://www.veichi.org/solar-water-pump-inverter.html.
    In your case I wonder if a solar PV inverter would help or not.

    -Bill

    1/7/2017:
    Dave Angelini said:
    Grundfos has been doing solar water pumping for 30 years in the Americas and over the seas
    http://us.grundfos.com/about-us/news-and-press/news/Pumped-by-the-Sun.html
    They have some really nice plant tours down in the Fresno area of California.

    More or less, you first need to define your loads--Solar power is not an "unlimited" source of power (relatively expensive, maintenance, etc.). Using the smallest/most efficient load (pump and pump motor) can help a lot.

    Once you have your "power needs" defined, then you look at the hardware needed to support those needs.

    the "inverter" in this case, takes high voltage / low current from the solar array (the basic equation for electrical power is Power=Voltage*Current), convert the incoming energy to high voltage DC, and then through the "inverter electronics" will create 3 phase AC power at variable frequency (when the sun is low, not much power, the frequency will be low and spin the pump slowly--As the sun gets higher in the sky there is more power available and then inverter will run at higher frequency of 50 Hz or more).

    These inverters (technical term is VFD--Variable Frequency Drive) are pretty close to a "magic electrical box" that takes variable DC power in, using an internal computer to "transform" that power into variable AC voltage/frequency out). You find one that can take solar power in (you need to know the input voltage/current range, and how much power you want to send to the pump) and program the VFD to run the pump based on available sun, water pump load, etc.).

    To help us, can you post a link to your VFD  (inverter) and motor+pump? We need details here to help you pick and install the system correctly (links are always welcomed here that move the conversation forward).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 879Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Do you need such a powerful well pump? Who spec'd out the pump and inverter?  May be time to go back to the drawing board, find out exactly what you need for your pumping needs, then design a system around those needs. If the pump you have is correct for your needs then, as you see here, you will need a substantial PV array, battery bank and other associated components.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    OK, tnx for all the replies so basically... this system is for a small village, maintenance wise is close to nothing. there are 15 cells thats was donated to me and the rest i need to figure out. Inverter will be purchased locally and the one i posted here is the only one available, sorry for my incompetence on solar since im really new to this. do i need a diff inverter?do i need more cells? how can i calculate watt output of a 15 cell system? stuf like this that im confused.
  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    The Vertical was already purchased and replaced the old pump that broke down. reason for the powerfull pump is that it need to pust the water up hill. to a multiple cisterns
  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    there is another pump working on the site withoug any battery bank
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,354Super Moderators admin
    Can you get the specifications for the VFD (Inverter) and post them here (or a link)?

    In some ways, you can think of the VFD like an automatic transmission between the car's motor and the car's wheels. It just picks the optimum gear ratio to match the throttle position for the motor and the loads on the wheels (wind, up hill, down hill, etc.).

    Without knowing much power the VFD, it is difficult to figure out how to match the solar panel array to the input of the VFD.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    the site im installing it
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,354Super Moderators admin
    Good... Here is the manual (I think):

    https://www.manualslib.com/products/Kstar-Ksg-3k-Sm-3765321.html

    some reading ahead...

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    tnx bill, so do i have the right inverter? and got enought cells for the pump?
  • jonrjonr Posts: 949Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    I'd either exactly duplicate the system that works or buy a well pump that is designed to directly connect to solar panels.
  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    jonr, the system that was installed and currently working was installed by the UN, and now im installing this with limited funding. i really wanna know if that inverter is enough? and also the cells. this site just became a political s#$$t storm and was tol i can only purchase stuff locally.
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,354Super Moderators admin
    No, that is not a VFD--It is a standard Grid Tie Inverter (takes solar panel energy and connects to the home's AC main panel and feeds energy into the local AC wiring and back to the grid). It is just not the correct device your your needs.

    Did you try reading any of the links I gave in my earlier post #10?

    Using VFDs for water pumping is getting pretty popular (it seems). However, it is still somewhat a new technology (solar panels -> VFD -> 3 phase pump). Do you have anyone what has a fair amount of electrical experience to help you?

    And your Imgur link is not working for me (you can post photos directly to our forum--Use the "button" that looks like a box with a sun in the upper left and a mountain range below icon to upload).

    We also need more information about the pump motor. The "ideal" motor is a 3 phase motor for use with the VFD.

    Terminal connection for induction motor - Electrical Engineering Centre


    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    can you link me a proper inverter for this PUMP? and ill try to look for the type locally. so i have enought solar panels? yes, BB im reading the stuff. im a electrician by trade but since im in the military i barely do my job and if i do its mostly contingent stuff.
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,354Super Moderators admin
    Not enough information there--But because there is a Capacitor of 50 uFd (or mFd)... It is probably a single phase motor with a motor start capacitor. Not a good candidate for VFD.

    3 phase power creates a "rotating field" inside the motor to make it turn (the rotating field "drags" the armature around). A single phase induction motor, the field only goes Up/Down (no rotation). To create rotation, many induction motors use a motor start or motor run capacitor to create a rotating field (so the single phase motor can "self start"--turn).

    Some information about VFDs from Franklin Pump (a US company):

    https://franklinaid.com/2000/05/15/variable-frequency-drives/

    https://www.wolfautomation.com/blog/vfds-for-single-phase-motors/

    Pedrollo pump "MKm" series is single phase. "MK" series is 3 phase.

    https://www.pedrollo.com/en/mk-vertical-multi-stage-pumps/138

    MKm 5/7-N

    Mono-phase

    1.8 kW

    2.5 HP

    I am not an expert in this field--But I don't think that this is a good match for your requirements. You really need the 3 phase motor to do this (or at least, a much better fit).

    Some more information:

    http://www.vfds.org/vfd-for-centrifugal-pumps-662716.html

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    edited May 10 #25
  • jonrjonr Posts: 949Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10 #27
    This sounds like what you need.  Not just an inverter or VFD, it is designed for solar and has MPPT functionality.  Says "all pump types", but I wouldn't be surprised if it can only drive a 3 phase motor.  

    http://new.abb.com/drives/low-voltage-ac/machinery/ABB-solar-pump-drives
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,354Super Moderators admin
    No. Many vfd are single phase input (solar is a single phase input), but almost all are 3phase output. That is what you linked to.

    Larger vfd will probably have 3 phase input too.

    Finding a vfd that can drive a single phase, capacitor start motor is difficult.

    I think this is Franklin pump's single phase vfd product line (also known as 4 wire single phase motors with remote, well head, mounted starting capacitor).

    http://www.franklinwater.com/products/drives-protection/residentiallight-commercial/subdrivemonodrive/

    I can't tell for sure, using my cell phone right now and the website keeps locking up.

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    So this is the controller of the other system is using, this one is getting power from 80 cells each making 80 watts. but it seems the company stops making them. so the original problem i was told was this controller is not enough to run both pumps, since they calculated that it need 6800 watts to run both pumps but the system only pushing out 6300watts and the controller can only support 5000w. i was thinking instead of building a new grid or set why not just buy a higher wattage controller add a couple of cells to the existing system? do i make any sense? if so where can i get a controller like this but higher wattage?cant seem to find one....
  • con2829con2829 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    So i just talke to the pump manufacturer, they saying that 2.5 horse power is too high for a controller, does he mean a off grid/no battery bank system that im trying to do will not work?
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 879Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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