Charger Stops before Charging is complete

2

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  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    Thanks ... everyone.  This is EXACTLY the info I was looking for.   I really appreciate all the time an patience. 
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 1,879Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Do follow up and let us know how it works out 
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    @mcgivor
    Do you have a link to the Home Power Mag article?
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    edited March 20 #35
    mcgivor said:
    Do follow up and let us know how it works out 
    Ok so I EQ'd most of the night and by 9am all batteries were up to between 1.298 - 1.305 +/- (off the scale).   I actually only had 1 cell at 98,  all others were above 1.300.  I had returned an addtional 50 Net Ah to the batteries.  So I feel they are fully charged.  I am not doing a slow discharge and will let them go down to about 65-60% SOC.  Then will try to charge them up using 2.55v /cell and see if we get back to 100%

    Battery temp never rose above 25.4C during EQ.   Outside temp was about 60F all night

    But still wondering,  Should my target be 1.277 or this new higher reading I got after extended EQ? 
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,433Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    IMHO, the SG readings you got in this exercise should be your benchmark unless/until you switch tools or the bank is at a significantly different temp.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • VicVic Posts: 2,897Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭

    FYI,   this system is a Grid Backup type setup,   in my lingo.

    Your Deep Cycle Flooded batteries are designed to by CYCLED.

    Usually,   when sees higher SGs than listed by the manufacturer  after a full-charge,   would recommend cycling the battery down to 50 - 60% SOC,   based on measured SGs,   and recharge,   if the electrolyte is at speced height.

    Believe that your batteries are currently filled to the spec electrolyte height.

    IIRC,   your Hydrovolt reads a bit high,  compared to the Refractometer.

    Just be certain to follow good practices when measuring SGs with the hydrometer --  the Surrette 'Measuring Specific Gravity'  article has  been Linked for you,   in the past.   It is a good summary of the best methods.   Only the SG vs SOC chart is off a bit,   due to Surrette's 1.265 fill electrolyte,   vs  Trojan's 1.277.

    Also,   as noted,   use the Vabs  that gets your battery bank to speced SG for full-charge,  about twice per week.

    Since you are using a Classic,   you can Skip Days to allow  somewhat greater discharge of your battery bank,  before full recharge.

    IMO,  your battery efficiency should be set to about 85%,   not 90.

    Furthermore,   also as noted previously,   SOC readings from any battery monitoring device  are ONLY approximations.   Identify several Pilot cells (usually a cell with a bit lower SG than the others in a battery bank),   to allow quick reference SG readings that can indicate the overall actual SOC.

    In addition be certain to;   RINSE,    RINSE    ....      AND RINSE AGAIN,    your Hydrometer after each measuring session.  I would not wait for more than about two hours before washing the Hydro.   A shorter time is probably better,  IMO.

    Have also mentioned that using significant Opportunity Loads (like your WB Dump),  will reduce,   somewhat,  the battery charge current.   This can cause WB EA Absorb to terminate a bit early,  vs having low inverter loads at this time.   This effect will depend on weather the large load/s  are cycling at the point where Absorb is nearing the EA current setting.   This is something to watch ...

    And so on,   FWIW,   Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 1,879Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    MrM1 said:
    @mcgivor
    Do you have a link to the Home Power Mag article?
    Here is the pdf the excerpt was taken from.
    Good to hear you are getting some positive results, my suggestion would be to reduce the voltage in small incrimants until a ballance is found which prevents overcharging but keeps the SG at the required specifications. This will depend on your specific system and it's use, so what works for me may not nesesarally work for you but these are the figures I found best suited to my system, daily cycled to ~ 25% DOD. Note my controller allows the one hour boost which may not apply to your controller.

    Bulk/boost 30V held for one hour into absorbtion before reducing to normal absorption voltage 
    Absorbtion 29.6V 180 minutes or 2% Ah capacity 
    Float 27V
    Rebulk 25V
    All values temperature compensated.

      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    edited March 21 #39
    Thanks for that
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    edited March 21 #40
    UPDATE

    So here is what I do not understand about the Conext SW AC charger (in particular) but also to some degree the Classic 150 (because the needed volts for full charge and behavior is similar)  as well. 

    I discharged the batteries last nite to 60% SOC.    Then began a charge at 10:30pm - 2:35am.  Batteries then floated until 7:30am.

    The Charge condition - No loads  except the 34 watts of the inverter which was supported by the AC grid current.

    Charger Settings:
    - Bulk 31.5v (see the chart, what does that even do?? It never got that hi)
    - Absorb 30.8
    - Float 27
    - Temp comp -3 mV/*C
    - Max Current set to 51.3 amps
    - Absorb Timer 450 min
    - Battery Bank Capacity 50 Ah

    As you can see from the attached chart,  the charger ran in BULK from 10:30pm - 1:38am.
    - charge current was right at 50 amps this whole time. Almost at the Max setting.
    -  I had the bulk voltage in the SW set to 31.5v.  Not even sure what that setting does because it appears to have done nothing.  The charger never got that hi, and switched over to absorb at 30.8v which was the absorb volt setting. 

    ABSORB lasted 1:38am - 2:35am.  ONE HOUR
    - Did not time out as timer was set to 450 minutes
    - absorb volts during charge was 30.6v which was downgraded because of temp comp from the 30.8v setting
    - The charge terminated at 7.1 amps  which is 1.5% of battery AH (but according to Schneider Tech support if I set the battery bank capacity to 50 Ah the termination should have been 1 amp or 2% of Ah setting - it was not)

    So now the charger "thinks" the batteries are full.  And goes into FLOAT at 26.8v for the remainder of the morning from 2:35am - 7:30am.

    I go out and check the SG at 8am.   And with no load except the 34 watts of the inverter (still being supplied by the grid) and the charger in float I get 1.259 - 1.274.  A few cells are near the rated Trojan spec of 1.277,  but most are below down to 1.259 ... or 90% SOC.   Even if you average them I am still only at 95% ... Which is exactly where the Classic is reporting  my SOC is at.   The SOC on the classic read 95% (which I know bears no real significance, but is pretty spot on)

    This is what has me miffed by the Dark Art of Flood Acid Battery Charging.  I set the charger to what should be an even slightly higher voltage than what is recommended for an AC charger by the Battery Manufacture.  The charger had all the power in the world.  Could have ran all night in absorb  ... but it did not.  Absorb only lasted an hour.  And did not fully recharge the batteries.

    The only way I am getting a full charge is to set the Absorb voltage up near EQ voltage of 31.7 ish - AC or Solar charger.  I realize the way it is working the charge only stays at that voltage about an hour ...

    ?????

    WHY are the chargers (both the SW and the Classic does this too) kicking out so early and before the charge is really done if I set the voltages to spec? 

    If i have the timer set to charge for 450 min (on the SW ) why does it stop after one hour?   I understand it with a Solar charger (you ran out of sun so set the voltages higher)  ... but why is it happening with the  AC charger too?   Battery problem?

    Is it a problem for the erosion of the battery plates and battery life to run the SW charger  (or the classic) at charge voltages set so much higher than spec all the time?  I am having to charge at 2.63v /cell to reach a full charge.   And it seems to be because the absorb portion will not stay on any longer than an hour, but rather,  kicks out due to end amps or resistance.



    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 1,879Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21 #41
    Graphics are nice to look at, but can be misleading. Setting bulk to a higher value will reduce absorption time, but absorption is the most important stage of of the charging cycle long and slow, as opposed to hard and fast. The changes will occur over time, don't try to rush things, think in terms of weeks/months  not days. The following are my opinions so take them or leave them, the bulk is set too high, try 30.5V, absorbtion try 29.8V, float 27V, battery capacity set according to actual capacity to end absorption at 2%, or 8.7A of 435Ah. Don't become obsessed with perfection in one day, this process takes time and lots of it, be patient, it's  part of finding the ballance. Taking SG readings after hours of float will naturally be lower, they should be taken at the transition of absorption to float.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,433Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    On the classic you should be able to disable end-amps absorb termination by setting end-amps to zero. I assume you can do something similar in the SW. If the 2% value is fixed, maybe try setting bank size to zero?

    I don't know what a bulk voltage does either. I can see where a charging regime might want to overshoot Vabs while in bulk, terminate at "Vbulk", then let voltage drop to Vabs and hold it there to complete the charge. If you didn't see the bulk voltage though, maybe this isn't the case.

    Leaving absorb time at 450min without end-amps is okay while you're monitoring and testing, but I'd lower it to ~180 for more normal use.

    I think of charging voltage as a bit of a trade-off. You want it high enough to fully charge most days with available charging time and resources. Too high will result in excess heating, gassing, and shorter life though, hence the trade-off. With grid charging, voltages can be lower because charging and floating can go on indefinitely.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    Graphics are nice to look at, but can be misleading. Setting bulk to a higher value will reduce absorption time, but absorption is the most important stage of of the charging cycle long and slow, as opposed to hard and fast. The changes will occur over time, don't try to rush things, think in terms of weeks/months  not days.

    Thanks ... will do

    The following are my opinions so take them or leave them, the bulk is set too high, try 30.5V, absorption try 29.8V, float 27V, battery capacity set according to actual capacity to end absorption at 2%, or 8.7A of 435Ah.

    Ok will reset.  But if there is a way to turn off end amps in the SW I do not know if it.  And the only way to exend the end amps is to lower the Battery Bank Capacity and fool the SW into a longer absorb charge via end amps.

    Don't become obsessed with perfection in one day, this process takes time and lots of it, be patient, it's  part of finding the ballance. Taking SG readings after hours of float will naturally be lower, they should be taken at the transition of absorption to float.

    Thanks. 

    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    On the classic you should be able to disable end-amps absorb termination by setting end-amps to zero. I assume you can do something similar in the SW. If the 2% value is fixed, maybe try setting bank size to zero?

    I will try that with the classic and use time instead for a while.  But with the SW ... 2% is fixed from what I have been told and the only work around is "Fooling" the charger by setting the Battery Bank Capacity to a lower Ah.  The lowest available setting is 50Ah.   Cant do 0

    I don't know what a bulk voltage does either. I can see where a charging regime might want to overshoot Vabs while in bulk, terminate at "Vbulk", then let voltage drop to Vabs and hold it there to complete the charge. If you didn't see the bulk voltage though, maybe this isn't the case.

    That is what I would have thought to and that was my thinking.  But it did not appear to happen that way.  So I will go with @mcgivor idea.

    Leaving absorb time at 450min without end-amps is okay while you're monitoring and testing, but I'd lower it to ~180 for more normal use.

    I only have it set so hi because it does not seem to matter.  It ended the abosorb charge in 1 hour.  But I can lower it to 180 incase the SW every changes its mind ... LoL
    I think of charging voltage as a bit of a trade-off. You want it high enough to fully charge most days with available charging time and resources. Too high will result in excess heating, gassing, and shorter life though, hence the trade-off.

    And hence what our pal SunKing (on the other forum) likes to say for solar chargers ... "set your bulk same as your absorb same as your float voltage"  (not an exact quote but seems to be his basic thinking for solar charging as I understand it).

    With grid charging, voltages can be lower because charging and floating can go on indefinitely.

    That is what I had hoped .... but with the chargering kicking out of absorb in an hour,  it just does not seem to work.  I have tried factory resets to clear any odd things I may have entered in.  But it still always does the same thing. 

    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,433Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21 #45
    If I set float to my Vabs, the bank could be boiling away at 60v for upwards of 10hrs in late spring. If I set Vabs to float, the bank would never get full most of the year, and would stratify and sulfate. IMHO, these voltages are variables to be set according to individual charging resources and usage. One-size-fits-all solutions sometimes end up not fitting anyone very well :wink:
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 1,879Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    I'm beginning to think that there is a conflict between mismatched components, when using a integrated system, the values can be copied from one component to another to avoid any conflicts, Schneider components have a set end amps determined by the battery Ah capacity setting oft 2%, sure this can be fooled by entering a lower or higher value of the batteries actual capacity to induce longer or shorter absorbtion , but why mess with what engineers have determined is the optimum value, unless one considers themselves smarter than the engineers, who may not be right all of the time, but are most of time.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,597Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    The bulk setting seems odd to me. Once you hit absorb voltage it should stop, but perhaps it's for days when you skip absorb, which I think both the Classic and SW can do, though I don't think bulk is 'settable' in the Classic...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,702Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21 #48
    Not sure who gave you the Bulk and Absorb values.  They should be the same voltage. 
    Don't let end amps terminate charge,  BAD  WRONG.   You are killing your batteries, they need to be charged for a couple days, forget end amps, you need several hours of absorb to finish charging them, not an hour.

    DISABLE the end amps ,  you are hurting batteries by not charging them fully

    Or not.  maybe I'm not telling you what you want to hear, and you want to buy new batteries.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

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  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    edited March 21 #49
    mcgivor said:
    I'm beginning to think that there is a conflict between mismatched components, when using a integrated system, the values can be copied from one component to another to avoid any conflicts, Schneider components have a set end amps determined by the battery Ah capacity setting oft 2%, sure this can be fooled by entering a lower or higher value of the batteries actual capacity to induce longer or shorter absorbtion , but why mess with what engineers have determined is the optimum value, unless one considers themselves smarter than the engineers, who may not be right all of the time, but are most of time.
     I would only do so to get longer absorb times.  As it is,  no matter what I do, with the SW I only get about an hour of absorb so far.  Perhaps I have the setting all messed up.  But When I just use the non custom settings and just go with the SW defaults for a Flood Acid battery at 435Ah in the SW ... I never even get close to charged.
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    edited March 21 #50
    mike95490 said:
    Not sure who gave you the Bulk and Absorb values.  They should be the same voltage. 
    Don't let end amps terminate charge,  BAD  WRONG.   You are killing your batteries, they need to be charged for a couple days, forget end amps, you need several hours of absorb to finish charging them, not an hour.

    DISABLE the end amps ,  you are hurting batteries by not charging them fully

    Or not.  maybe I'm not telling you what you want to hear, and you want to buy new batteries.
    OK thanks ... will adjust those voltages.

    No I want to avoid buying new batteries.  I have already turned off end amps in the Classic.  That is "doable"  But I do not know how to do so in the SW.  It seems to just stop the absorb after an hour.   I cannot figure out how to only use timed absorb.

    If you know of a way to get timed absorb rather than end amp in the SW please let me know.  As of yet I have not figured it out.  And this is why I have been charging at such hi Absorb Voltages ... to get fully charge,  But the hi voltages have me concerned because of heat and plate damage. 
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    edited March 21 #51
    mike95490 said:
    Not sure who gave you the Bulk and Absorb values.  They should be the same voltage. 
    Don't let end amps terminate charge,  BAD  WRONG.   You are killing your batteries, they need to be charged for a couple days, forget end amps, you need several hours of absorb to finish charging them, not an hour.

    DISABLE the end amps ,  you are hurting batteries by not charging them fully

    Or not.  maybe I'm not telling you what you want to hear, and you want to buy new batteries.
    Well actually,  I do want to buy new batteries,  but not for 5-7 years if I can help it.  And then I want to sell the inverter (if it lasts that long) and switch the whole system to 48v.    :smiley:
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,433Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    @mike95490 - it doesn't appear to be possible to completely disable end amps in the sw, only to set it to a minimum (2% of min 50ah bank). It can be disabled in the classic. Hopefully OP gets some nice solar days to do some long absorbs.

    @Photowhit - skip days on the classic goes straight to float (skips both bulk and absorb). Non skip days do the regular bulk-absorb-float.

    @mcgivor - a mismatch might make sense, but at 2:00am? I could see where, for example, the classic supplies voltage that makes the sw terminate absorb on end amps, but not at that hour. Seeing the same issue (premature end of absorb) in the two independent devices kinda implies to me there's something funky in wiring etc.

    It may be a good idea to disable sw charging while the classic charges to rule out a conflict in sw settings. Maybe something lurking in time-of-use charger settings or whatever.

    I also wonder if there could be some rapid temp changes (like hvac fans causing drafts around the bank). If the BTS sensed an increase in temp, it could throttle back target voltage enough that current drops to near zero while battery voltage slowly drops? IIRC, OP noted some ventilation changes earlier in the thread. Normally the bank changes temp slowly, but BTS could be misreading. A little chunk of insulation over the BTS battery attachment might help rule this out?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • VicVic Posts: 2,897Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21 #53

    Schneider seems to believe that a Bulk charge voltage setting that is above Vabs can be helpful.   Some stand-alone grid powered chargers appear to do this.   Really,  this type of charging  just has a high Vabs for some time (1 hr?) and then the real Vabs second.

    Many off-gridders that use these Schneider Inverters DO set Vbulk and Vabs to the same voltage.

    Shunt EA is a fine way to control Absorb time,  but the Schneider SW seems to have a number of problems,  particularly for inverter/chargers that interact with the Grid.

    Mr.M1's system IS A GRID BACKUP SYSTEM.

    Otra vez (once again),  it is good to fully charge Flooded batteries a couple of times per week,   or,  as many times as is necessary to keep from discharging the batteries to point that is below that recommended by the battery manufacturer.    Choose a Vabs that will accomplish this recharge in the amount of time that is available to do so.   The Classic Skip Day function can allow n-number of days without Bulk/Absorb to be implemented.   This can allow deeper discharges of the battery,   between full recharges.

    This general discussion has had many folks tossing out ideas and opinions for a period of time.   It is difficult to try to keep up with what has been said,   and probably a bit overwhelming for Mr.M1  to process,   comment on,   try,   and report back:

    http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=3948.0

    It has been said,   or implied here,   that perhaps,  a bit too much attention IS being paid to the details of the batteries in this system (my interpretation).   This is probably true.   However,  there is a fairly large Opportunity Load on the system ( Water Heater Dump).   This load may not be functioning when the SW Inverter is charging the batteries,   but this load is a bit of a variable in the mix,  when the Classic/Solar is charging batteries   IMO.

    On the other hand,  Mr.M1  IS paying attention to the system,  its settings,   AND the batteries.   Few folks seem to pay much attention at all,  until, "the lights go out".  So  this is a good thing.

    FLAs are forgiving.   This system is young,   and also,   as has been mentioned,   allowing a number of days twix changes to the system,   to allow monitoring behavior before making more changes,   would be beneficial   ...   and so on

    FWIW,   Vic


    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭

    It may be a good idea to disable sw charging while the classic charges to rule out a conflict in sw settings. Maybe something lurking in time-of-use charger settings or whatev.

    I also wonder if there could be some rapid temp changes (like hvac fans causing drafts around the bank). If the BTS sensed an increase in temp, it could throttle back target voltage enough that current drops to near zero while battery voltage slowly drops? IIRC, OP noted some ventilation changes earlier in the thread. Normally the bank changes temp slowly, but BTS could be misreading. A little chunk of insulation over the BTS battery attachment might help rule this out?
    When I charge with the classic it is with the SW charger totally disabled and the AC grid power cut to the SW.  So I am effectively off grid when charging with the classic.

    When I charge with the SW it is usually at night.  So while the Classic is not off,  it is indeed resting and getting no input from solar. 

    So in effect I do not allow them to conflict.  

    And most of the time I am off grid with the loads the system is supplying (about 3000 watt hours per day) because the grid interactivity in the SW basically does not work,  unless: 1) the loads are almost perfectly balanced between L1 and L2 as I have confirmed with thru testing and extended conversations with Schneider.  The more balanced the loads,  the better it works.  And it works perfectly if the loads are perfectly balanced ... BUT 2.)  it also takes higher loads to be worth while.  Any load under about 250 watts is going to be supplied by the grid, even in the very best of balanced scenarios, That is built into the SW.    So most of the time it is not worth it to be in Grid Support mode,  so I just run off grid.   Almost all the time.

    Could there be wiring conflicts?  Possibly,  but Im not sure what they would be.   There is just not that much to mess up.

    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,597Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Estragon - skip days on the classic goes straight to float (skips both bulk and absorb). Non skip days do the regular bulk-absorb-float. 
    That was my understanding too, but it actually makes sense to allow bulk charging at least to the absorb point, and perhaps a little higher. May be scheiders methodology. I was really trying to work out a reason for a bulk point above absorb.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,433Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    On the wiring, did you ever check voltage on sw and classic outputs vs at battery terminals under load? Even factory crimps on beefy wire can be defective, cold flow on connections may need retorqued, etc.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    edited March 21 #57
    Vic said:

    Schneider seems to believe that a Bulk charge voltage setting that is above Vabs can be helpful.   Some stand-alone grid powered chargers appear to do this.   Really,  this type of charging  just has a high Vabs for some time (1 hr?) and then the real Vabs second.

    Many off-gridders that use these Schneider Inverters DO set Vbulk and Vabs to the same voltage.

    Shunt EA is a fine way to control Absorb time,  but the Schneider SW seems to have a number of problems,  particularly for inverter/chargers that interact with the Grid.

    Mr.M1's system IS A GRID BACKUP SYSTEM.

    Otra vez (once again),  it is good to fully charge Flooded batteries a couple of times per week,   or,  as many times as is necessary to keep from discharging the batteries to point that is below that recommended by the battery manufacturer.    Choose a Vabs that will accomplish this recharge in the amount of time that is available to do so.   The Classic Skip Day function can allow n-number of days without Bulk/Absorb to be implemented.   This can allow deeper discharges of the battery,   between full recharges.

    This general discussion has had many folks tossing out ideas and opinions for a period of time.   It is difficult to try to keep up with what has been said,   and probably a bit overwhelming for Mr.M1  to process,   comment on,   try,   and report back:

    http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=3948.0

    It has been said,   or implied here,   that perhaps,  a bit too much attention IS being paid to the details of the batteries in this system (my interpretation).   This is probably true.   However,  there is a fairly large Opportunity Load on the system ( Water Heater Dump).   This load may not be functioning when the SW Inverter is charging the batteries,   but this load is a bit of a variable in the mix,  when the Classic/Solar is charging batteries   IMO.

    On the other hand,  Mr.M1  IS paying attention to the system,  its settings,   AND the batteries.   Few folks seem to pay much attention at all,  until, "the lights go out".  So  this is a good thing.

    FLAs are forgiving.   This system is young,   and also,   as has been mentioned,   allowing a number of days twix changes to the system,   to allow monitoring behavior before making more changes,   would be beneficial   ...   and so on

    FWIW,   Vic


    Thanks Vic.  You hit the nail on the head several times.

    Overwhelming indeed at times, but enjoyable.

    I consider the likes of Yourself,  Mike,  Derrick (aka SunKing) and many others to be Gurus and Sherpas on a Solar Journey to which I am a mere  traveler. 

    Yes I have probably Obsessed over my batteries.  OCD.  :)   guilty

    Please note:  When doing these tests,  I do keep the Dump load off.  Especially at nite using the SW,  when charging there is never a dump load on,  and as in the case of last night's test charge, I turned everything back onto the grid.  So there was no load at all.   I only start to dial in the dump load once I think the batteries are being fully charged.   And on days when it will be cloudy I turn the dump load off. 

    I have the whole system set up so I can control it from anywhere as long as I have a PC on at the house ... thanks to TeamViewer, a Go to My PC type peer to peer free desktop control program.  So I can monitor the system and do any setting from any place I have an internet connection.   As well as MyMidnite. 

    The MidNite Solar Local App and MyMidnite was why I chose the Classic CC over the Schneider controller - at the time I did not plan to buy the Combox - which I also now have.  So  in retrospect the SW CC probably would have behaved more politely with all the rest of my Schneider gear.  But now it is what it is. 

    I thank all of you for the continued education.  I in no way every mean or attempt to be blowing off your advice.  And all criticism is welcome.  I guess the only  advice I did not heed,  and had not heard it til after the fact, is - why get into off grid if grid is available, there will be no return on investment.    Well ... I did not want to go grid tied.  But I do not regret off grid.  I really like the independence of not having to worry about the local POCO.  And for me,  as long as I can afford it,  is worth the cost of batteries.  But i want to keep those batteries as long as possible. 

    So yes,  I ask a lot of annoying questions,  I test a lot of suggestions and even my own theories,  but I am enjoying it and learning loads for all you kind, patient folks. 

    Thanks.
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    edited March 21 #58
    OK .... I do now have the EA off in the Classic ... and it has been "absorbing away" most of the day... at 1-2.5 amps.    Guess if I am going to stay on time,  I need to watch the SG to see when I get fully full and set the time accordingly.   As of yet today,  I am still not full,  and have been in absorb at those very low amps for about 3 hrs.   Still have the timer set to 6.5 hrs in the classic,   but watching the SGs every hour or so.  
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • MrM1MrM1 Posts: 157Registered Users ✭✭
    edited March 21 #59
    Photowhit said:
    Estragon - skip days on the classic goes straight to float (skips both bulk and absorb). Non skip days do the regular bulk-absorb-float. 
    That was my understanding too, but it actually makes sense to allow bulk charging at least to the absorb point, and perhaps a little higher. May be scheiders methodology. I was really trying to work out a reason for a bulk point above absorb.
    That was my thinking so I was testing it.   Setting the bulk higher than absorb because I knew it would not start off hi it would built to that,  and thinking it might stay in bulk longer, thus giving me a more complete charge since I was only able to get about an hour out of absorb no mater now I set things ... unless I set the absorb volts very hi.  So I thought,  try and set the bulk volts hi to see if it would hold longer,  but it did not.  The SW still rolled out to Absorb at the absorb volts and never even came close to the set bulk volts. 

    So I put them both back to the same.

    If I knew how to turn of EA in the SW I would do so.   I would much rather charge with the AC charger based on time.

    But also wondering if the reverse might be true.  set them lower and see what happens.  But my guess is that would only lower the charging current in bulk.  So best to probably set them both the same.

    But there are a lot of things Schneider has done in the SW that do not make much sense. 

    Midnite seems to be a lot more logical in their settings.
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S/3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array
    MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware
    Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system
    Grid-Assist Off-Grid / Need 3200Whs Daily Off-Grid
    System went Online Oct 2017
  • VicVic Posts: 2,897Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭

    Mr.M1,

    The Schneider CCs  are just stupid boxes.  No frills at all.   Only one Aux, and it is only a digital output.   You need to buy their Battery Monitor to do part of what the WbJr does ...   no Waste Not-like function   in the CC (that I know of),   often buggy Firmware,   and one needs a special FW Implanter (or the ComBox,  IIRC)   at many $$$. cost to do FW updates,   and to do custom settings in their Inverters,   etc

    IMO,   you ARE much better off with the MN Classic.

    FWIW,  etc,   Vic


    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,702Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    If you understand how to program the boxes, mixing brands is easy, I've had no issues
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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