New Battery Technologies, New/Unfamiliar Dangers?

BB.BB. Posts: 26,529Super Moderators admin
edited August 3 in New Battery Technologies #1
There have been talks about Lead Acid batteries going away here on the forum. Lots of reasons why, but LA seem to be a well known technology, that recycles well, and is relatively safe and benign (lead, sulfuric acid, plastics). While getting lead into your body, and/or sulfuric acid based electrolyte on your eyes/skin is not a good thing--It can be washed off/neutralized pretty easily.

What about the new batteries that are out there. I have been reading up on Li Ion and some of them use Fluorine compounds (mainly in the electrolytes?).

Looking around, it appears that the Tesla power wall batteries do not use Fluorine (but some, non-power wall, battery packs (car?) do contain R134a which can(will?) produce Hydrofluoric acid if burned), but the LG 18650 cells do:

http://www.planegard.com/assets/tesla_emergency_response_guide_powerwall_and_powerpack_eng.pdf
Powerwall and Powerpack systems also include sealed thermal management systems containing coolants
and refrigerants.
Non-Cell Materials found in Powerwall and Powerpack Systems Approximate Quantity
  • Ethylene glycol 50/50 mixture with water Powerwall: 1.6 L of 50/50 mixture
  • Powerpack: 26L of 50/50 mixture
R134a: 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane refrigerant
  • Powerwall: none
  • Powerpack: 400g
3. FIREFIGHTING MEASURES
Responding to a Venting Tesla Energy Product. Smoke emanating from a Tesla Energy Product is an
indication of an abnormal and hazardous condition. The smoke is likely flammable and may ignite at any
time. If fire or smoke is observed emanating from a Tesla Energy Product at any time, evacuate the area, and
notify appropriately trained first responders and the local fire department.
A trained first responder team or the local fire department should shut off power to the Tesla Energy Product,
to prevent charging of the battery. However, shutting off power to the Tesla Energy Product does not deenergized
the battery, and thus a shock hazard may still be present. The Tesla Energy Product should then be
monitored for evidence of continued smoke evolution. Application of high volumes of water from a safe
distance to cool the battery pack may prevent further reaction and prevent a fire from developing.
If a fire develops, the Incident Commander should determine whether an attempt will be made to suppress the
fire (aggressive firefighting) or allow the battery to burn until it self-extinguishes, while protecting
surrounding materials (defensive firefighting).
Virtually all fires involving lithium-ion batteries can be controlled with water. To date, water has been found
to be the most effective agent for controlling lithium-ion battery fires. Water will suppress flames and can
cool cells, limiting propagation of thermal runaway reactions. If water is used, electrolysis of water (splitting
of water into hydrogen and oxygen) may contribute to the flammable gas mixture formed by venting cells,
burning plastic, and burning of other combustibles. Thus copious volumes of water should be used to fight a
lithium-ion battery fire.
Gaseous agents such as CO2 or Halon, or dry chemical suppressants may temporarily suppress flaming of
lithium-ion battery packs, but they will not cool lithium-ion batteries and will not limit the propagation of cell
thermal runaway reactions. Metal fire suppressants such as LITH-X, graphite powder, or copper powder are
not appropriate agents for suppressing fires involving lithium-ion battery packs as they are unlikely to be
effective.
A battery fire may continue for several hours and it may take 24 hours or longer for the battery pack to cool.
A lithium-ion battery fire that has been extinguished can re-ignite due to the exothermic reaction of constituent
materials from broken or damaged cells. To avoid this, remove sources of ignition and cool the burned mass
by flooding with water.
Aggressive Firefighting: If a decision is made to aggressively fight a fire involving a Tesla Energy Product,
then copious amounts of water should be applied from a safe distance. The water may not suppress all cell
thermal runaway reactions within the battery pack, but it may cool cells and control the spread of the fire. If
possible, direct the application of water towards openings in the battery pack enclosure, if any have formed,
with the intent of flooding the pack enclosure. The objective is to contact the surfaces of the affected and
surrounding individual battery cells with water.
Defensive Firefighting If a decision is made to fight a Tesla Energy Product fire defensively, then the fire
crew should pull back a safe distance and allow the battery to burn itself out. Fire crews may choose to utilize
a water stream or fog pattern to protect exposures or control the path of smoke. A battery fire may continue
for several hours and may result in multiple re-ignition events. It may take 24 hours or longer for the battery
pack to cool.
Firefighter PPE. Firefighters should wear self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA) and fire protective
turnout gear. Cells or batteries may flame or leak potentially hazardous organic vapors if exposed to
excessive heat, fire or over voltage conditions. These vapors may include volatile organic compounds
(VOCs), hydrogen gas, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, soot, and particulates containing oxides of nickel,
aluminum, lithium, copper, and cobalt. Additionally, phosphorus pentafluoride, POF3 and HF vapors may
form
https://www.swe.com/media/files/files/e79f60bf/52500135-S_NEW.PDF (LG cells)
Hazardous Decomposition Production/Products:
None during normal operating conditions. If cells are opened, hydrogen fluoride and carbon monoxide may be released.
Reading about HF (hydrofluoric acid)--That stuff is scary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid
Hydrogen fluoride gas is an acute poison that may immediately and permanently damage lungs and the corneas of the eyes. Aqueous hydrofluoric acid is a contact-poison with the potential for deep, initially painless burns and ensuing tissue death. By interfering with body calcium metabolism, the concentrated acid may also cause systemic toxicity and eventual cardiac arrest and fatality, after contact with as little as 160 cm2 (25 square inches) of skin.
While personal stories are not always the best source of actionable intel, they do give one pause. Here is one where to CR123 batteries failed (apparently, non-rechargeable Li Ion batteries may contain more(?) fluorine compounds--Although, a "wall full" of batteries with even a little Fluorine may be more exposure than two small camera batteries in a fire):

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?340028-Flashlight-Explosion

What are your thoughts/concerns/etc. about Li Ion and other new battery technologies and their, relatively, unknown dangers to the consumer market. The chances of a Li Ion power back failing without outside damage should be small... But structure fires are one of the most common dangers in the US--Residential fires from cooking are about 50% of all fires (~1,300,000 all fires, ~400,000 residential fires per year):

https://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/

For me, at the very least, a separate battery shed built out of non-flammable materials and the ability to manage water from a hose/fire hose seems to be a good idea for Lithium batteries (and, I have suggested that even a large lead acid bank and electronics, genset, fuel, etc. should be separate from the home/living quarters/garage, if possible, for solar power systems).

What do folks do in remote locations do (the major reason for off grid solar power)?--May not be a nearby fire-department (poor road access during winter/snow, lack of large supplies of water in summer, lack of Solar/Battery/genset power to run fire pump, and local fire department may not be experts in addressing toxic spills of HF... Even the Tesla document gives two options for a battery bank fire, flood with water or let it burn.

-Bill
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset

Comments

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,150Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5 #2
    The Tesla has scared me several times over the marketing. I do not get that from what LG has said and built. Here is a recent block picture of a powerwall I saw yesterday in Santa Cruz.  Solar City had installed it but it was not working right with the Ap. The LG  RESU series is passive cooled and there is not an Inverter inside.

    I can see your point on a shed except for the same problem all sheds have, people often neglect to use their eyeballs in remote sheds.
    The other point is the LG RESU series is designed and has been tested inside the home, I think that is a bit of too much on the eyeball  :)


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • SolraySolray Posts: 246Registered Users ✭✭
    Personally, I don't worry about it or any of the hundreds of other potentially deadly things we all live with every day. It's nice to know what to do and take reasonable precautions but after that, worrying will gain nothing.
    Cars, engines, electricity, storms, floods, garage doors, large objects, firearms, wild animals, people, stairs, elevators, and a virtually endless list will all kill you if certain circumstances...so what?
    The sky is not falling yet and there is still time to enjoy life if you stop worrying about silly things and use common sense, you'll be fine.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,150Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Great advice for mental health but I would still look both ways crossing a street if I were you :)

    The webinar from LG yesterday pointed out that LG Chem is a 20 billion dollar business that has been profitable for over 21 years. They are trying to build confidence in the N American market as they see a nice opportunity to grow here.
    The cells that are used in the RESU 10 (48V) and the RESU 10H (400V) are the type JH3 and are currently used in the Chevy Volt and still the upgrade battery on the Tesla Roadster. They are a Class 9 hazardous material and the driver needs training and a cert.




    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 4,806Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5 #5
    Dave posted:  They are a Class 9 hazardous material and the driver needs training and a cert.

    This does not make sense to me , should we think of this as hazardous but safe to use or 'keep looking over your shoulder '

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,150Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5 #6
    Sorry you don't understand, invite me up for some Canadian Whiskey and I can try again. :)

     Transporting many different items have different classes and hazards. The people doing it and the warehouse folks can't be stupid or ignorant. It is not really enforced much now, but it will once large batteries are seen in a truck during a traffic stop.
    The same for Air Transport which is how I received my batteries from South Korea.
    The fire and emergency people need to know how to deal with electric cars and people, so why would you think that knowing exactly what the hazards are is a bad thing? Screen shot for more looking over shoulder :)


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,426Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Finding myself reading more reasons to let other adventurers be the guinea pig for newer technology. If I had limitations on space or weight (or some other lithium friendly challenge), I might try lithium. Otherwise, it seems like lead acid still offers the best value in a solar bank.

    Costco offers a lithium power supply that *seems* to weigh less than 12 pounds and costs $1000. Wondering about the sales of that.

    Being a bit fascinated by the cult of "suicides" among those with information regarding the Clinton's, it may appear that the presence of lithium batteries may offer convenient "suicide" methodology. It is unlikely that the local detective is going to be in his/her element regarding noxious lithium battery fires. By the way, the Clinton's feel very badly about Debbie Wasserman's upcoming suicide.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,150Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Dave posted:  They are a Class 9 hazardous material and the driver needs training and a cert.

    This does not make sense to me , should we think of this as hazardous but safe to use or 'keep looker your shoulder '

    I had some class 7 exposure on the USS Nimitz and I am fine by the way ;)  Lithium and dry ice are biggest in #9






    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 4,806Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Dave we have some 'fine Rye Whiskys'  but a wee dram has been seen too....  However you would be hard pressed to make it here in an EV....let alone back to the fill station... The last free filling point is the recharge station at the University campus in Willies  Puddle...A > 150 mile trip over rough roads and some very steep inclines and then the last 10 miles of gravel road.... 51*46' 33'' N 124*43' 40''W...

    I now understand what I did not grasp at first, there obviously needs to be a safety sticker on the windows or ? specifying the hazards inherent to the vehicle, like a Propane sticker  I had on an older propane fueled pickup...
    Dry Ice Class 9... interesting...!
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,150Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    No problem, I use gasoline. No charging stations in Mariposa county, yet. I prefer your blended Whiskies, but I am open to a Rye!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 4,806Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Some new Ryes  of late:   Seagram's 'Northern Harvest' , FORTY Creek a dark one from Alberta, and the older  Alberta Sipping Whiskey.... if you see them,  all have  character...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,150Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8 #12
    What I generally do not like is the Irish, American, and Canadian Ryes that have a bite or like Jack Daniels.
    Call me velvet but I like smooth Canadian Crown Royal or Canadian Club and Black Velvet. Like most all the cheap blended whiskey also!
    That obviously tells you I don't like much Scotch.
    How is the fire smoke up your way? I hear it is hurting the solar output as far south as Seattle.

    Bill, the LG 18650 cells you sited are not used in the RESU series of residential. They use the JH3 series of flat, non-folded/non-rolled cells. They do have some warning stickers though....
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 4,806Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Dave, like you we have a 'local' fire ~ 4 miles away, at a higher elev. and we are in the natural air drainage from that area, so since they did a poorly planned back burn we have been seeing lots of dense smoke and the browny blood red sun and this week, the moon..  almost black-red... 
    Somewhat startling is the fact that I am still FLOATING each day, though just before the sun drops behind the adjacent hill, usually get there around noon... so still getting ~ 2.2kWh a day, which keeps the fridge going in this hot weather! Haven't had to pull 'the cord' yet and the only noise is the frequent Helio fly-by, but it is so dark in the AM they don't lift off till after 08:00 instead of 06:00!
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,150Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Sounds the same as here. A bit better now that we are 98% and finally back to normal night temperatures. They almost burned down our hospital with a back-burn when the wind shifted.

     We have to be a bit happy that our fire captain is using the fire as an excuse for burning a defense zone for the town. We have some local brains here that the state and the feds are lacking. They really want me to move to the big city and take a bus, walk, hi speed rail....
    and not use air conditioning! Please don't get me started with the bozos we elect. 

    Good that you can sleep later!  We got the 3 am fire drill to close the windows enough, that I just leave the heat pump on now.
    Been raising my glass to the fire men and ladies quite a bit! I bought lunch for a group yesterday. Felt good about that!
    Take Care!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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