The future demise of lead acid batteries

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  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭
    Wonder if it was a white person who made that statement?

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,258 ✭✭✭✭
    And anyone who has been to South Africa probably knows that there are some incredibly beautiful places and people!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭✭
    They wanted their"freedom"from the oppressive, perceived, white dominance, only to ba replaced by an even more oppressive leadership, but it must be pointed out that there are exceptions, Botswana is an example, but elsewhere there is blood on diamonds, blood on oil, blood on cobalt to mention a few, and as long as there is money to be made the abuse will continue.  The consumer has te ultimate power, don't  buy from manufacturers who source from the aforementioned sources, but will that happen, most likely not.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    Wonder if it was a white person who made that statement?
    It was in the movie "Blood Diamond" with DiCaprio. The movie is "loosely based" on real life. Do you believe the statement to be false?

    South Africa was making nukes, I think they make machetes now? I am not sure since I have not visited. I understand that Madagascar is quite friendly. Perhaps other regions also do well?

    I do like statistics and the stats for Africa are pretty abysmal. Libya was doing pretty well until we bombed them- with our NATO cabal of allies.

    In fairness, it has also been said that Africa was doing fine until European interventionism. Lots of things have been said.

    I tend to look at the world and consider it's faults. Just how I roll.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,768 admin
    Let's not stray too far from the the battery topic.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    BB. said:
    Let's not stray too far from the the battery topic.

    -Bill
    I am betting that lead batteries will continue to remain very popular for the next decade. Lithium may come down until it has significant market share, then profits will dominate their goals. Just my intuition.

    FWIW...my ~$3500 of lithium stocks are now worth $.020. I could be prejudiced.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 694 ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:

    I am betting that lead batteries will continue to remain very popular for the next decade. Lithium may come down until it has significant market share, then profits will dominate their goals. Just my intuition.

    FWIW...my ~$3500 of lithium stocks are now worth $.020. I could be prejudiced.
    I suspect that one factor that will drive more rapid adoption of lithium chemistries will be the availability of used EV batteries.  There are 2 million EV's on the roads now around the world - and these will tend to last about 5-8 years with existing battery technology.  That means ~50 megawatt-hours of batteries that are going to retire at some point, and savvy recyclers will make them available to home energy storage systems people.    And even a Leaf battery (relatively small) that is at half capacity gives you 12 kilowatt-hours at 400 volts - which, if you can get it for $1000, is a screaming deal.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:

    I am betting that lead batteries will continue to remain very popular for the next decade. Lithium may come down until it has significant market share, then profits will dominate their goals. Just my intuition.

    FWIW...my ~$3500 of lithium stocks are now worth $.020. I could be prejudiced.
    I suspect that one factor that will drive more rapid adoption of lithium chemistries will be the availability of used EV batteries.  There are 2 million EV's on the roads now around the world - and these will tend to last about 5-8 years with existing battery technology.  That means ~50 megawatt-hours of batteries that are going to retire at some point, and savvy recyclers will make them available to home energy storage systems people.    And even a Leaf battery (relatively small) that is at half capacity gives you 12 kilowatt-hours at 400 volts - which, if you can get it for $1000, is a screaming deal.
    Good argument for "lithium battery wheels" but I still don't see the "demise of lead batteries." I suspect that if the "solar" lead battery manufacturers made a more robust, higher quality battery that they would very significantly lower the number of bad cells that often spell the end for an entire battery bank.

    Have never studied lithium battery technology. Guessing they are less likely to develop bad cells.

    Once again, I have a bad cell in a 24 volt battery array made up of forklift type 2 volt cells. The battery turns to garbage every night as a result....because of one bad cell. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 694 ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:
    Good argument for "lithium battery wheels" but I still don't see the "demise of lead batteries." I suspect that if the "solar" lead battery manufacturers made a more robust, higher quality battery that they would very significantly lower the number of bad cells that often spell the end for an entire battery bank.

    Have never studied lithium battery technology. Guessing they are less likely to develop bad cells.

    Once again, I have a bad cell in a 24 volt battery array made up of forklift type 2 volt cells. The battery turns to garbage every night as a result....because of one bad cell. 
    I agree with you that the demise of lead acid has been greatly exaggerated.  They work well, and for most people give them all the storage they need.  However, I think that they are also a mature technology, and thus significant improvements at this point are less likely.

    BTW I'd love to see more medium capacity 2V cells available.  Makes pack maintenance easier (a lot easier to replace a single 500ah cell than a 6V 500ah cell) and allows large single-string packs without having to parallel batteries.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,768 admin
    Softdown,
    Once again, I have a bad cell in a 24 volt battery array made up of forklift type 2 volt cells. The battery turns to garbage every night as a result....because of one bad cell. 
    We talked earlier about replacing a bad cell in many forklift style:

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/351114/how-to-dissasemble-then-reassemble-odd-forklift-type-batteries

    Anything come of that?

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    BB. said:
    Softdown,
    Once again, I have a bad cell in a 24 volt battery array made up of forklift type 2 volt cells. The battery turns to garbage every night as a result....because of one bad cell. 
    We talked earlier about replacing a bad cell in many forklift style:

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/351114/how-to-dissasemble-then-reassemble-odd-forklift-type-batteries

    Anything come of that?

    -Bill

    Been thinking about that. My good spare 2 volt cell now has low SG of course. Never did find the right charger for a 2 volt cell. Problems with all three arrays, this one was on the back burner for a couple days. It is also hard to remove a cell via the hole saw. Been thinking about trying a flat wood/plastic bit on lead.

    I think I fixed the improper charging parameters on the main 48 volt system today. The MX80 is incredibly easy to program. The MATE seems very confused for the past few weeks.

    My life is constantly offering up one severe challenge after another. Perhaps I should have taken a partner to smooth the bumpy road? As a bachelor, it is simply too easy to "blow it off" for another week.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,768 admin
    With a hole saw--One method is to take a piece of hardwood (or similar) and drill a hole through it will a hole saw (and backing board).

    Then take the hardwood and clamp to the surface you want to hole saw. Now you can (pretty easily) drill the hole through the guide without a pilot drill (if you don't want the pilot).

    Regards to finding a partner... I would suggest that getting that partner will add a whole 'nother layer of bumps and twists to said road (no matter how compatible they may be).

    I am married with kids--But my suggestion to anyone who has asked--It is better to be alone than to wish you were. Think twice about taking that step.

    Hmmm turns out that was an Ann Landers quote:
    • It is far better to be alone than to wish you were.
    http://www.wiseoldsayings.com/authors/ann-landers-quotes/

    -Bill "back to your normal programming" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    BB. said:
    With a hole saw--One method is to take a piece of hardwood (or similar) and drill a hole through it will a hole saw (and backing board).

    Then take the hardwood and clamp to the surface you want to hole saw. Now you can (pretty easily) drill the hole through the guide without a pilot drill (if you don't want the pilot).

    Regards to finding a partner... I would suggest that getting that partner will add a whole 'nother layer of bumps and twists to said road (no matter how compatible they may be).

    I am married with kids--But my suggestion to anyone who has asked--It is better to be alone than to wish you were. Think twice about taking that step.

    Hmmm turns out that was an Ann Landers quote:
    • It is far better to be alone than to wish you were.
    http://www.wiseoldsayings.com/authors/ann-landers-quotes/

    -Bill "back to your normal programming" B.
    Sorry....my wry sense of humor often goes undetected on the net. Needs the voice attenuation and a sharp mind to recognize it. Most people just give me confused looks.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11 #45
    BB. said:
    With a hole saw--One method is to take a piece of hardwood (or similar) and drill a hole through it with the hole saw (and backing board).

    Then take the hardwood and clamp to the surface you want to hole saw. Now you can (pretty easily) drill the hole through the guide without a pilot drill (if you don't want the pilot).

    Regards to finding a partner... I would suggest that getting that partner will add a whole 'nother layer of bumps and twists to said road (no matter how compatible they may be).

    I am married with kids--But my suggestion to anyone who has asked--It is better to be alone than to wish you were. Think twice about taking that step.

    Hmmm turns out that was an Ann Landers quote:
    • It is far better to be alone than to wish you were.
    http://www.wiseoldsayings.com/authors/ann-landers-quotes/

    -Bill "back to your normal programming" B.
    Sorry....my wry sense of humor often goes undetected on the net. Needs the proper voice attenuation by me and a sharp mind to recognize it. Most people just give me confused looks.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Ralph DayRalph Day Solar Expert Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    "With a hole saw--One method is to take a piece of hardwood (or similar) and drill a hole through it will a hole saw (and backing board).

    Then take the hardwood and clamp to the surface you want to hole saw. Now you can (pretty easily) drill the hole through the guide without a pilot drill (if you don't want the pilot)."

    Bill, thanks for this little gem!  I've woodworked for over 40 years and never thought of this as a solution to hole-sawing without using the pilot.  Won't forget now.

    Ralph
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12 #47
    Ralph Day said:
    "With a hole saw--One method is to take a piece of hardwood (or similar) and drill a hole through it will a hole saw (and backing board).

    Then take the hardwood and clamp to the surface you want to hole saw. Now you can (pretty easily) drill the hole through the guide without a pilot drill (if you don't want the pilot)."

    Bill, thanks for this little gem!  I've woodworked for over 40 years and never thought of this as a solution to hole-sawing without using the pilot.  Won't forget now.

    Ralph
    Whoever thought up the expression, "you can't teach old dogs new tricks",  is wrong.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12 #48
    The problem is that the spare cell has the wrong connective lug configuration to replace the bad cell. The bad cell has normal connective lugs adjoining it to the right and left cells. The spare cell was a corner cell with connective lugs on one side only. The other side has an upright lug with holes for connecting 2/0 cables.

    This 24 volt array has 12 cells of course. Six are corner cells as described above. Six are the typical forklift battery configuration with connective lugs to the right and to the left.

    The battery bank is nine years old. I suspect that cells will start crashing with regularity now. My little experiment was interesting but not overly fruitful.

    FWIW.....the Trojan Agent seems to appear everyday that I post. Takes about a sentence of typing before it "takes over my computer". Easily removed by a flash scan malware removal program.....why and how does it re-appear everyday, particularly at this forum? I probably would not mention this problem but it is government agents who like to place malware in flash memory. They can do it at will and tend to use their toy whenever displeased. Most malware removal programs are not able to so flash scans.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,768 admin
    Softdown,

    Can you tell me a bit more about the malware? A quick search shows:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Trojan+Agent

    Not sure what/which one is the issue.

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,768 admin
    We had one poster here that would get 36 volt forklift batteries and jumper out the bad/reserved cells and make 24 volt batteries out of them.

    He never said how he did it, but I would guess he figured out how to bond copper wire to the tops of the cells.

    I saw a picture of one battery that had (factory?) jumpers that appeared to be, roughly, standard lead (or copper/lead) based terminals that where crimped to a cable and the terminal end was soldered to the top of the battery (like the video of the jumper bars are soldered to the battery terminals).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    BB. said:
    Softdown,

    Can you tell me a bit more about the malware? A quick search shows:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Trojan+Agent

    Not sure what/which one is the issue.

    -Bill

    I'll try to relay more precise data the next time the Trojan commandeers my computer. It happens elsewhere, it happens here every day that I post it seems.

    I believe that Snowden informed us of the intel communities ability and proclivity towards installing malware in computer memory. I show up on their radar a *lot* due to interests in economics, history, international relations, government debt, fiat banking, prepping, libertarianism, conservatism, freedom, Israel, Cheney, 9/11, JFK, Federal Reserve, and surveillance/spying.

    Yes....the bloke in Hawaii likes to play with cheap, old forklift batteries. I'm sure there is a lot of truth to his data, some of it seemed truly remarkable. But I have been "shocked" by old batteries coming back to useful life myself.

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,827 ✭✭✭✭
    try this process to see if it can clean your computer... https://malwaretips.com/blogs/trojan-agent-removal/

    Before doing the full meal 3 stage  deal... I would start with Malware bytes to see if it can locate them first... and  I suspect you should run any cleaner programs in SAFE MODE ....  tap constantly the F8 F-key while booting up...

    good luck

    or alternatively if you have another computer, pull the HD and scan it with another computer

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    try this process to see if it can clean your computer... https://malwaretips.com/blogs/trojan-agent-removal/

    Before doing the full meal 3 stage  deal... I would start with Malware bytes to see if it can locate them first... and  I suspect you should run any cleaner programs in SAFE MODE ....  tap constantly the F8 F-key while booting up...

    good luck

    or alternatively if you have another computer, pull the HD and scan it with another computer

    Fortunately I have Malwarebytes Pro. Only the Pro edition scans flash memory and removes malware. It takes ~2 minutes, having to do it almost daily is annoying.

    I have done a lot of various scans. For the past four years, the only malware, viruses etc, have been the Trojan Agent that keeps getting re-installed in memory. It happens in the other computers as well.

    I get flash memory malware every time I mention the Federal Reserve. Something I have done at least 100 times.

    The Stasi were there to keep those in power......in power. Arrive at your own conclusions.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,249 ✭✭✭✭
    Try No-Script add-on for your browser.  That stops the scripts that load the flash code
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,768 admin
    NoScript and uBlock Origin (ad blocking software) on Firefox browser.

    NoScript is very nice. Turns the web browser into a 1990's experience (no autoplay, no moving junk on the screen, etc.). I like it, but for people that do not like having to "white list" websites (banking, youtube, etc.), they may not like/feel comfortable configuring NoScript for sites where they need scripting.

    https://noscript.net/

    Ublock Origin is an add blocker--Seems to work very nicely out of the box. Also has a handy screen editor that lets you remote redundant content from a newspaper's web page. Note that Ublock is an older version and not supported by the original author.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UBlock_Origin

    Supports many platforms:
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    I have UBlock and Adblock, very easy to use and non-intrusive. Tried using NoScript and found it to be a general nuisance for an unprofessional user. You guys are right though.....they use scripts to do their dirty work. For me, it is easier to remove their malware everyday.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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