Adding Panels to New RV

TaoJones
TaoJones Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭✭
My existing travel trailer was coming to the end of its useful life, so I bought a Teton fifth wheel located about 250 miles away. It's here and set up now, so I can begin working on making it completely self-contained. A big part of that, of course, is producing my own power no matter where I'm located.

On my travel trailer, I have two 160 watt panels, a Midnite Kid charge controller, a pair of Trojan T105 batteries and a Samlex PS12 600 watt inverter. Recently, the inverter quit working for reasons unknown, but since I was going to be replacing the coach anyway, I let it go. Now it's time to deal with that and everything else involved in adding panels to the new fifth wheel.

The Teton is a 2005 but is in excellent condition. It was equipped in 2005 with a Xantrex 2000 watt inverter/charger and four batteries. This was in addition to the two house batteries that the factory provides. About three years ago, the seller said, the four batteries installed in the inverter/charger system finally gave up the ghost and he disposed of them without bothering to replace them. He insists the system worked flawlessly up to that time, though it was something he didn't need as he was permanently located at a resort where the RV pads are individually owned and he had full-time city electric power.

Assuming that is all true, how do I add panels to the coach to keep both the factory house batteries charged as well as the four new T105s I'd like to get to replace the batteries in the inverter/charger system that died? I'd also like to add a larger charge controller than the Midnite Kid I already have and would welcome suggestions. I'd like to use the two panels I have and add two more to get around 600 watts total.

The reason I'm posting this in the Solar Beginners Corner is because the inverter/charger system is something I've never dealt with before. I'd like to incorporate it into a bulletproof system capable of powering this much bigger 50 amp coach. Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide.

TJ

Comments

  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Xantrex has several different inverter chargers in the 2000 watt range. It would be good to know which one you have. The 'charger' part will charge with 'shore power' or when AC is connected to the RV. You will still want an independent solar charge controller and array.

    50 amp service is not something to strive for unless you want to run a generator. My current 5000 watt array won't fit on your car and the 640 Ah 24 volt 1100lb battery would supply 50 amp service (That's a full load on a 6000 watt inverter) for less than an hour and a half before it would hit low voltage disconnect, likely less than an hour.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It would help to identify the specific model inverter, but a couple of general comments.

    This size of inverter may have a significant "tare" load, using power just being on or with small AC loads. If you tend to just fire up the inverter to use the microwave or whatever, that shouldn't be an issue, but if you tend to want to power AC loads 24/7 it may be.

    I'm not clear on how you want to use the batteries, and also on the condition of the two house bank batteries. To keep things simple, you would normally have a single house bank (which could be 6xT105s), which would power DC loads directly, and AC loads from the inverter. Keeping the banks separate might make sense if, for instance, the inverter is 24v to handle larger loads.

    The Xantrex on my boat has output terminals to charge a secondary bank of 12v batteries.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Unless your CC location is isolated you would probably appreciate a silent charge controller. Morningstar controllers are passively cooled and make no noise. Other name brands have multiple fans for cooling and can be quite noisy.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • Solray
    Solray Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭✭
    > @Photowhit said:
    > Xantrex has several different inverter chargers in the 2000 watt range. It would be good to know which one you have. The 'charger' part will charge with 'shore power' or when AC is connected to the RV. You will still want an independent solar charge controller and array.
    >
    > 50 amp service is not something to strive for unless you want to run a generator. My current 5000 watt array won't fit on your car and the 640 Ah 24 volt 1100lb battery would supply 50 amp service (That's a full load on a 6000 watt inverter) for less than an hour and a half before it would hit low voltage disconnect, likely less than an hour.

    50 amp service does not mean a continuous 50 amp load is on it. It means all the circuits combined with full loads at every outlet and everything on at once won't trip the breakers off.

    You can use a lot less than that amount and I'd keep the air off unless you get a small split type unit.
  • TaoJones
    TaoJones Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Thank you for your interest and comments. The inverter/charger is a 2005 Xantrex MS2000 pure sine wave unit. The original owner of the coach was in N. California and he had a marine company there install the Xantrex. I have no information on the original batteries that were installed with the inverter/charger, but the large plastic boxes (now empty) are just large enough to accept a pair of T105s in each box.

    Photowhit, I inadvertently misled with my statement about the new coach being a 50 amp RV. This was only to indicate that the previous 30 amp travel trailer I had is dwarfed by the 50 amp fifth wheel, which contains much more of everything than the much smaller travel trailer, but I'm not trying to provide 50 amps of solar power to the Teton (Yikes!).

     I lived happily in the travel trailer with the 320 watts of solar power I had, and only employed the inverter to power a small alarm clock, keep my MacBook and cell phone fully charged and occasionally to watch a Samsung 32" television. The 600 watt Samlex inverter was not over-matched by my demands in any way - but I don't know why it failed after more than a year of faithfully meeting my small AC needs. The new unit Samlex sent me also worked well, but for only about four months . . . then it quit working, as well. Samlex again replaced that unit, but the last replacement failed on initial power-up and I was not going back to Samlex until I knew what the heck was going on.

    Estragon, I'm also unclear on how I want to use the batteries, but the current pair of house batteries are in good condition. I don't think the inverter/charger is a 24V unit, but I'll double-check that tomorrow. A major source of my state of confusion is the two separate battery banks . . . where my existing solar set-up is really simple and the panels charge the pair of T105s through the Kid charge controller, I can't quite wrap my head around the inverter/charger's separate battery bank that was charged via the city electric provided at the pedestal.

    In other words, since you've got all the AC power the coach demands while you're plugged into the RV park's pedestal, why would you then use that power to charge the inverter/charger battery bank, then turn around and invert that DC power back to AC when you already have plenty of AC via the shore power cord. And if you intend to boondock primarily, and you're using panels to charge your batteries, why do you need a separate bank of batteries just for the inverter/charger? What am I failing to see?

    littleharbor2, thanks for the suggestion on the silent Morningstar CC. Yes, I'd much prefer a quieter controller than the alternative.

    TJ
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    The charger part of the inverter charger is useful on dull days to fully charge thr batteries when the solar is not adequate, obviously if one frequents serviced RV parks exclusively, there would be no need for solar at all.
    A generator can also be used as a source of AC power, which for the same reasons can be used to supplement poor solar days, a very handy addition to keep the batteries healthy. Some will support loads and charge at the same time, not sure if the one you have has that feature.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think I found the data sheet for the inverter. It looks very similar to mine, and is almost certainly 12v. It has a 30a transfer switch, which was hopefully accounted for when installed in the trailer with 50a shore power supply. It has the secondary charging output like mine, but as the secondary is limited to 10a, it's really most useful when on shore power. When generator charging, I combine banks to bulk charge through a 1/2/both/none switch. Also, note that the tare load is ~50w, so leaving wall warts plugged in and the inverter on will use ~100ah/day. If you really want to run the clock and wall warts 24/7, I'd suggest a 2nd smaller inverter like a Morningstar 300w PSW and a separate circuit dedicated to those loads.

    Assuming it is 12v, I'd recommend sticking with a single house bank. There may be issues in using your existing bank of two with a new bank of four though. The first may be distance. How far apart are the spaces? If not very close together, it will be difficult or impossible to properly wire the parallel connection. The second issue is battery ages. The existing bank may be in good shape, but in parallel with new, it will likely age the new bank somewhat faster than it would otherwise. This would be offset somewhat by having a bigger combined bank and lower depth of discharge.

    Does the trailer have a 1/2/both/none battery switch?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • TaoJones
    TaoJones Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Estragon, thank you for your most recent comments. Yes, I think it's safe to assume it's 12v, as I can find nothing to the contrary. I can't find any specs on the transfer switch, but the following is from the Operation Guide:  "The built-in transfer switch automatically transfers between inverter power and incoming qualified AC power." I imagine the disparity between 30 amp transfer switch (if it is) and 50 amp shore power was accounted for at installation as the system was professionally installed and (reportedly) never had any issues.

    And yes, there is a 1/2/both/off battery switch. There is a post-it note that the last owner attached to the Xantrex that says "always leave on 1," but I suspect he was never brought completely up to speed on the inverter/charger system by anyone when he purchased the coach in 2007, or during his ten-year ownership.

    My guess is that the original owner of the coach in 2005 was probably a mariner like yourself, and that his intended use was extended periods plugged into his home power supply (his "dock") and occasional ventures "off-shore" where he would be away from any provided AC power unless he fired up a generator or spent a night here and there at a full-service RV park ("marina"). He probably approached his marine dealer and asked them if they could give him what he needed to have reliable AC while out in the wild for limited periods and sufficient charging while attached to the utility grid or a generator.

    Given the much-less advanced state of solar charging, IMO, just 12 years ago, that approach would have made sense. Had solar charging for RVs  been as advanced at that time as it is today, he would probably have added panels so that he wouldn't have had to rely on city power or generator input to keep the system charged.

    I understand what you're saying about the drawbacks of combining four new T105s with the existing pair of 12v house batteries. Those are group 27s from NAPA called DP ("deep-cycle marine and RV dual purpose") batteries. One indicates it's from 11/11 and the other is from 06/15. I wouldn't say distance is a limiting factor, more than likely, as the inverter/charger and its batteries (when present) are very near the two 12v house batteries. They are, in fact, only separated by the 12v panel. (I'm charging my camera battery right now, because I know pictures of the set-up will provide a lot of clarity for everyone.)

    I'm wondering if it might make the most sense to just keep the two systems discrete. I can purchase a new set of panels, charge controller and batteries for the inverter/charger system, and take my existing pair of 160 watt panels and Midnite Kid controller and dedicate them to keeping the existing pair of group 27s fully charged. I'd likely replace the group 27s with T105s when the time comes that replacement is necessary.

    The other option, I suppose, would be to buy all new T105s for both systems, but I'm reluctant to replace the group 27s until that becomes necessary. Of course, I'm sure the older battery from 2011 will need replacing long before the one from 2015, so I'll have to decide on what's best when the time comes. If I do keep two discrete systems, will the 1/2/both/off switch allow me to bulk charge all batteries when reliable AC is available by selecting "both" on the switch?
  • TaoJones
    TaoJones Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Thanks for your comment, mcgivor. Yes, you're right about not needing solar charging if one frequents RV parks, but a "boondocker" like myself wants to avoid those places whenever possible. And though I have two generators (a small 1000 watt Honda that's at least 25 years old and a 3500 watt electric-start generator that I bought less than a year ago for a construction project away from any other power), I seldom use them if I can avoid it.

    Like many RVers who've come to appreciate the blissful silence of boondocking with no nearby generators, I prefer to only use one when there is no other option. Yes, I RV primarily in the West where it's actually possible to set up with no other signs of life in the vicinity. But if there is someone else who's set up within less than a quarter-mile, I don't want to ruin their experience by being the "noise polluter."

    That said, I'd never travel without a generator nor hesitate to use it when necessary.
  • TaoJones
    TaoJones Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Solray said:
    > @Photowhit said:
    > Xantrex has several different inverter chargers in the 2000 watt range. It would be good to know which one you have. The 'charger' part will charge with 'shore power' or when AC is connected to the RV. You will still want an independent solar charge controller and array.
    >
    > 50 amp service is not something to strive for unless you want to run a generator. My current 5000 watt array won't fit on your car and the 640 Ah 24 volt 1100lb battery would supply 50 amp service (That's a full load on a 6000 watt inverter) for less than an hour and a half before it would hit low voltage disconnect, likely less than an hour.

    50 amp service does not mean a continuous 50 amp load is on it. It means all the circuits combined with full loads at every outlet and everything on at once won't trip the breakers off.

    You can use a lot less than that amount and I'd keep the air off unless you get a small split type unit.


    Solray, thanks for your comment. Your explanation about a 50 amp coach is right on point.

    And yes, leaving the A/C off as well as seldom using the microwave goes a long way toward conserving the hard-won power in the batteries. Unless I'm plugged into city power, I never even think of using A/C. By living in Colorado in the hotter months and Arizona or California in the colder months I have almost no need for air conditioning. Even the furnace is seldom used, though there have been those few times down in the desert when I was sure glad I had one.

  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The transfer switch thing probably isn't a big issue. The potential problem is that in theory you can draw 50aac through the inverter pass-through circuit rated for 30aac. Hopefully the installer put in a smaller breaker, but it would only be an issue if you actually used 50a sustained. The inverter may even protect itself, I'm not sure.

    There's a good chance the new group27 ages out with the old one. I would have replaced a 4 year old battery in parallel at the same time, but go with what you got.

    One way of approaching this would be to consider the older bank as a sort of "reserve tank". You would expand your pv and controller capacity to charge all the batteries, but as a single charging system. The echo charge from the inverter would generally keep the old bank charged on shore power. You would normally keep the 1/2 switch set for the new bank for both discharging, and solar charging. If you got to a point where you need to dip into the reserve, you would use the switch to discharge from the old bank to run essential loads for a while. To recharge, you would parallel the old and new banks to bulk charge from a common pv system, or if need be, a generator.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • TaoJones
    TaoJones Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭✭
    edited July 2017 #13
    Thanks for your reassurance on the transfer switch question, Estragon. I'm making a list of pertinent questions and that will be on there.

    I like your notion of using the factory-supplied house bank as a reserve, but being able to bulk charge all the batteries together. Yes, this Xantrex has the Echo Charge feature, though they discuss it in the literature as intended for the engine start battery (or batteries). Using it as a charge source for the "reserve bank" makes a lot of sense. There is also the factory-supplied converter to charge the house batteries when on shore power.

    I note in your sig that you are using Midnite Classic 150s in your off-grid system. I've been considering the Classic for my next CC with this new system and I assume you're satisfied with yours. Is there anything I need to keep in mind before going that route? Would you similarly recommend the Morningstar 300 watt inverter you had mentioned earlier as a discrete AC source pulled from the factory-supplied house bank to keep the computer and cell phone always fully charged?
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am happy with the classics, but if I had a kid I'd consider adding a second before replacing it with a classic in your application.

    I'm also happy with the small morningstar inverter. I would wire it to run off the new main bank though, not the reserve bank, in your application.

    My application is a bit different in that I need to run larger AC loads during the day off a 48vdc bank with big inverters, but can switch to a smaller 12vdc bank at night. In your case, the voltages are the same, so you can run the smaller inverter off the main bank.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • TaoJones
    TaoJones Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Got it . . . thanks, Estragon.
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2017 #16
    Re the Classic, if fan noise is a concern, a passively cooled controller would be a better choice. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • TaoJones
    TaoJones Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Thanks, mcgivor . . . that's the second reminder about CC noise, so I'd better keep it in mind. The controller won't be isolated, so a noisy component like that in the internal living space would probably quickly become tiresome. Morningstar was mentioned by littleharbor2, above . . . is that your recommendation as well?
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can recommend the Morningstar MPPT 60 as being solid and silent, and simply works.  Better than the classic I have.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Have  Morningstar and Schneider, happy with both, silence is a plus. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Solray
    Solray Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭✭
    I agree with the last 2 comments. Morningstar is superior to Midnite in my opinion.