PT-100 Power Status Code P04 - relisted as I think I deleted the orig.post while editing it

lfmgtc59

Hi All:

I finally today got my PT-100 up and running and all seems to have gone very smooth.

I do have a question though I hope someone can help me with, or point me in the right direction at least.

Everything looks good, except I am getting a Power Status Code of "P04". The manual gives a couple of sentences explaining this (pg51 / table 4-2), however I'm not really sure what I should be looking for in order to determine the exact nature of the fault and what to do to fix it.

Their one "hint" concerning the possibility of the PV array's VOC to close to battery voltage, does not seem to apply as I have around 37V from the PV array and a 12V battery bank.

Any help you can give would be very appreciated as I cannot find anything online concerning this.

The complete system consists of:

PT-100

MSH3012M

ME-ARC50

ME-BMK

8 Q-Cells Q.PLUS L-G4.2 330 (330W) - run in 8 individual strings to combiner box  (for specs see below)

(2) 800 AH 12V batteries (basically newly refurbished pallet jack batteries) connected w/ 4/0 AWG welding cable.

 Also:

The Remote and PT-100 displays are only showing 0.9 kw for the entire array in full sun 90 deg to panel.  Could this be because of the power limiting caused by the P04 or is something else going on here?

Thank You
Lee

Panel Specs:

DC Electrical Characteristics

• STC Power Rating 330W
• PTC Power Rating 305.4W 1
• STC Power per unit of area 15.4W/ft2 (165.5W/m2)
• Peak Efficiency 16.55%
• Power Tolerances 0%/+3%
• Number of Cells 72
• Nominal Voltage not applicable
• Imp 8.91A
• Vmp 37.02V
• Isc 9.49A
• Voc 46.55V
• NOCT 45°C
• Temp. Coefficient of Isc 0.04%/K
• Temp. Coefficient of Power -0.4%/K
• Temp. Coefficient of Voltage -0.135V/K
• Series Fuse Rating 15A
• Maximum System Voltage 1000V

Vic

Hello Lee,  Welcome to the Forum(if that applies),

Have you measured the PV input voltage to the Charge Controller (CC)?

Have you tried resetting the CC?

When turning power on to most CCs,   it is important to turn on the battery breaker first,   then the PV breaker,   and when powering off the CC,  turn off the PV breaker first and the battery breaker last.

So your PVs are all in parallel,   so the PV voltage into the CC  should be in the 30s to low 40 V range,  depending on loading and temperature of the PVs.

Please check that ALL of the PV modules are wired correctly.   Make sure that the POLARITY of each module is correct.   You could open the PV input breaker into the CC,   then open all of the breakers in the combiner.   Then measure the voltage and Polarity at each cable from each PV (using the common Negative buss in the Combiner as the connection for the common lead of the Multi Meter).

Please check ALL DC connections in the combiner,   and at all breakers,   all of the way through the system.   Check each PV cable at the Combiner negative buss.   Torque all screw terminals TIGHTly,   and to spec if possible.    Screw terminal connections loosen,   especially in the first day or two.

From reading the cited manual table,   it seems that the CC believes that there is a very low PV input voltage.

More later,   Vic

Photowhit

Well I'm the one who got deleted. let me post the info from the manual and then talk about your system;

You have a poorly designed system, your array of 2640 watts should normally produce about 1980 watts (derating for NOCT values) at 12 volts that's about, 1980 ÷ 12 = 165 amps, your charge controller is rated at 100 amps!

You might read through the manual and see if it can be limited to 90-100 amps output.

Most would never suggest a 3000 watt inverter on a 12 volt system it is just too costly. You will need another charge controller to fully utilize your array. Unless you have your inverter with in 4 feet of your battery bank, you will need larger than 4/0 cable to connect it!

The manual says up to 10 feet for 4/0, I would question this! If this is a residential use, the only other 3000 watt 12 volt inverter I am aware of (Prosine 3000) calls for 500MCM! for residential use! 4/0 for marine and RV.  Indeed Magnum does NOT recommend this for home use! Only RV and Marine. It only carries certification for mobile use UL 458.

Perhaps it's the too high an

lfmgtc59 said:

The Remote and PT-100 displays are only showing 0.9 kw for the entire array in full sun 90 deg to panel.  Could this be because of the power limiting caused by the P04 or is something else going on here?

This is likely at near 80 amps, the limit of the controller is 100. It might be limiting it's self do to heat (another problem when converting to 12 volts) 950÷12= @80amps. You cloud also be nearing Float from absorb and the battery bank begins accepting less current when 80-85% full.

lfmgtc59

Hi Vic:

 I appreciate the help.

I have checked all the connections.  I have rechecked the lines to the panels themselves.

PV array Voltage input was at upper 30s with a max recorded of 40.

I checked each panel individually using the combiner box breakers – each measured Voltage in the upper 30s, all measured the same watts +/- .

The wattage seems pretty low  0.9KW for the entire array in full sun.

Thank You
Lee

lfmgtc59

Hi Photowhit - sorry about the delete - accidents will happen...

Based on my calculations, below (which could admittedly be wrong) the system falls within the specs of the PT-100 listed on pg 17 Table 2-1. 

 Rated PV Array Power: 2640 W

Anticipated Array Power @ 40C: 2480 W

Rated PV Array Current: 71.28 A

Battery Charging Current @ 14.4 V: 183.3 A

VMP (Maximum Power Point Voltage) :37.02 V

VOC (Open Circuit Voltage):46.55 V

VMP @ -30 C°: 45.2 V

VOC @ -30 C°: 50 V

 

The entire set up is on an enclosed Car hauler, so RV / mobile would be appropriate.

The batteries are within 5’ and I am utilizing 4/0 AWG welding wire

The PV cables to combiner are pre-made #8 AWG

Cables from Combiner Box to PT-100 are 2/0 AWG w/ 1’ of #2 in and out

Cables from battery to inverter are 4/0 AWG with a dual 4/0 from the breaker

Lee

Photowhit

lfmgtc59 said:

Hi Vic:

 I appreciate the help.

I have checked all the connections.  I have rechecked the lines to the panels themselves.

PV array Voltage input was at upper 30s with a max recorded of 40.

I checked each panel individually using the combiner box breakers – each measured Voltage in the upper 30s, all measured the same watts +/- .

The wattage seems pretty low  0.9KW for the entire array in full sun.

Thank You
Lee

Do you understand that the charge controller can only handle an output of 100 amps?

The charge controller can limit the amount of energy it accepts from the array.

100 amps at 12 volts is 1200 watts, the most you will ever see... If you don't understand this we can help in some manner. Perhaps Magnum has an array sizing tool, I'll look.

lfmgtc59

almost forgot...  The reason for the 3KW inverter is that there is a 10KW multi-fuel generator in the mix.  I just have not figured out the AGS wiring yet, so it is not attached to the system at this point.

Photowhit

Here is some info from their spec sheet that might help you understand;


This shows the maximum effective array at 48 volts, since it is limited to 100 amps 'OUTPUT' at 12 volt. you can use 1/4 as the maximum effective array or 1650 watts, this accounts for the normal output of a solar panel that is 75% of it's label rating reducing the output to about 1200 watts.


This is the other thing you might be running up against. Converting to the minimum of the system you may be creating more heat. Particularly if the charge controller is in a warm/hot environment. Indeed the over sized array may even effect this! as it must limit the input wattage.

Photowhit

lfmgtc59 said:

almost forgot...  The reason for the 3KW inverter is that there is a 10KW multi-fuel generator in the mix.  I just have not figured out the AGS wiring yet, so it is not attached to the system at this point.

Does the generator produce 120 volt 60 cycle electric? If so any good inverter charger could use the electric to charge the battery bank. In fact it might not be too late to make a switch, you would need another charge controller to use your array. You could switch you a 24 volt system by putting your batteries in series and replace the inverter in stead. at 24 volt output your single charge controller could handle the current array's normal output of @85 amps at 24 volts.

lfmgtc59

Am I right in understanding that the 100 amp limit is Battery Charging Current (in current set up 183.3 A) and not PV Array Current: (in current set up 71.28 A)?

Photowhit

I don't know where you are getting your numbers?

lfmgtc59 said:
Anticipated Array Power @ 40C: 2480 W

Rated PV Array Current: 71.28 A

This is unrealistic! Use the NOCT values on this spec sheet;

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjwp9rG1_rUAhUi0oMKHdMZBTYQFghIMAA&url=https://www.q-cells.com/dam/jcr:aa74e5a8-cca7-49f6-8c71-8c2c0be8f3de/Hanwha_Q_CELLS_Data_sheet_QPLUS_L_G4.2_330-340_2016-06_Rev01_EN.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF7v3UzClD2Q1Yud08DslcmBCK57g

It shows an output of 244.7 watts under normal operating conditions.

lfmgtc59 said:

Battery Charging Current @ 14.4 V: 183.3 A

Even if you array could produce the wattage you suggested, This will never happen as your charge controller is limited to 100 amp Output!

Your charge controller may have other factors limiting it's output, but think of it as an appliance on a 15 amp circuit. It will only show the amount of power it is using, not what is available. A light bulb only uses 15 watts, while 1800 are available. So the display is only based on what it is using.

Photowhit

lfmgtc59 said:

Am I right in understanding that the 100 amp limit is Battery Charging Current (in current set up 183.3 A) and not PV Array Current: (in current set up 71.28 A)?

Yes Output, not input.

lfmgtc59

I appreciate all the help and info.  I wish I had found this site a couple of months ago when I was hammering through everything trying to figure this out.  But, better late than never.

All of this seems to be verified by what I am seeing on the system right now...  it is overcast and cloudy and I am collecting 120watts and the P04 is no longer showing.

My PT-100 manual is telling me that the stacking feature is not currently available (pg 3 #11) The ports are only present for future enabling.  (Does anyone have any info on this?)

Given I cannot stack, and the single most expensive item was the 12v hybrid inverter (and I want to stay compatible with the truck which is 12V) I'm taking stock of my options.

I suppose the upside to the overly large PV array is that I can collect more in low light conditions for longer utilizing the entire array.

On the downside I will have to shut off about half the array in full sun.   This I can do fairly handily though as I ran each panel on a separate breaker and just need to turn off the breakers until I lose the P04 status.

Does this sound reasonable?

Thank You
Lee

Photowhit

Yes. Others, who have more experience with the P100 will likely chime in and make suggestions/comments.

Using more than 1 charge controller on a system, is usually not problematic. Even if they don't talk with each other. They will switch functions at different times but this is normal as the measuring devices will always have slightly different readings.

You can search this forum for multiple charge controllers. I think we should have many threads on this. You could also ask the people at Magnum.

lfmgtc59

I tested out the theory today...  I'm not exactly sure what it is telling me.

I started with all 8 panels with full sun and had the P04 error same as yesterday
I shut off individual panels until the P04 error cleared - at this point I had only 2 on 
I then walked back through turning the panels on in full sun until all 8 were on.  I did this twice.

Below are the readings from the PT-100 control panel

Panels on       PWR Status                     PV                       BAT

2                     MPPT ON                      27.4V / 450W       14.4V / 32.1A

3                     Regulating VDC            32.4V / 600W       14.6V / 39A

4                     Regulating VDC            34V / 570W          14.6V / 39A

5                     Regulating VDC            35.1V / 570W       14.6V / 39A

6                     Regulating VDC            35.5V / 570W       14.6V / 39A

7                     Regulating VDC            35.9V / 570W       14.6V / 39A

8                     Regulating VDC            36.1V /  570W       14.6V / 39A


I don't understand why the P04 error did not come back as I turned the panels back on, or why the "limited" Power Status was replaced with the regulating.  Now instead of 900w under the P04 I am regulating at 570W.

I guess the deeper I go the less I really understand...  any further help would be appreciated

Thank You
Lee

Photowhit

Perhaps it is in the absorb cycle and the batteries are accepting less current...


In general there are 3 primary stages of charging, Bulk, this is when the battery is less than 80-85% full. An MPPT type charge controller will hold the voltage to a level where it has the maximum charging.

The second stage is called absorb, when the battery nears 80-85% full, the voltage, if uncontrolled by the Charge Controller, would sky rocket. This is one of the set points for the battery. I think you are using the P100's preset points;

Your fork lift batteries, assuming they are flooded, should be regulated to 14.6 volts, at this point the battery no longer accepts the same amount of current, so the battery slowly accepts less current, until it either a set time for the absorb stage or it senses a small amount of current and then it switches to the final stage.

Float is the final stage, The battery is full. At this stage the charge controller reduces the voltage to a lower level so that minimal charging takes place. This prevents the battery from heating up and causing damage. If a load is presented during this stage the charge controller will hold the voltage by allowing more current to pass from the array (if available). In this manner you are in essence running off the solar array.

Hope this helps.

lfmgtc59

Yes thank you...  it does help.

So basically the read out on the PT-100 is showing what the controller is ACTUALLY sending the battery, and not what is "available" to send the battery?? 

Thus yesterday when the battery was in Bulk Charge it was actually "drawing" more from the controller than the 100amps, and thus the P04 error -  and today as the battery was at the "absorb" level it was drawing less and thus the controller was within it's parameters for normal running??

Am I getting this straight now, or am I still in the woods on how this operates and what the display is telling me?

Lee

Estragon

Yes. The controller is a load on the panels, and the panels will only produce for the load. In absorb, charging current tapers off, so absent other loads, the panels produce less as charging load tapers.

lfmgtc59

To update I received the following email from Magnum:

Your PV voltage is too low, we have found that the voltages in the manual for Lower Vmp level on a 12 volt system are actually much lower than they need to be to work properly. You need to at least wire the panel in two module strings. That will get the voltage high enough that it can MPPT and you will see your current increase also.

  Thanks,

 Darren Massey

Sr. Product Support Technical Specialist"

This really makes no sense to me at all as it acheives "MPPT ON" status with only two panels turned on.

 I have been trying to call them to discuss it, but with no success thus far.

lfmgtc59

Continued update - Very Interesting Info From My Phone Call with Magnum:

Actually I have two problems;

Problem # 1: As we have been discussing: I have way to much Current on the battery side, however this has nothing to do with the P04 error

Solution "A" to problem # 1:  Don't worry about it the PT-100 will clip the amperage to 100
Solution "B" to problem # 1: Split the Array and Add a second networked PT-100

Problem # 2:  The "Lower Vmp level"  in the manual is wrong.  It should be 48-50V not 24 V (pg17, Table 2-1).  Thus my 37 - 40V is way low and the system will not operate correctly.

Solution "A" to problem # 2:  Re-Wire the array so that I have 4 strings of 2, so as to up the volts to 74V.  Apparently this will clear the P04 and allow the PV wattage to rise to 1450w.

So between problem #1 which was my fault, and problem 2 which is their fault, I have to rewire my array, which is a big enough pain, and possibly add a PT-100 on a completely separate line in, an even bigger pain.

Not a happy camper, but I guess I will get over it and get on with the rewiring...

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP!

Photowhit

WOW! Good to know, I'll have to remember this, I'm sure it will come up again. It needs a minimum of 48 volts for a 12 volt system. This seems odd, I wonder if Bill has been following. It doesn't seem correct if it only needs double for 24-48 volt systems. I would think the charge controller would work less efficiently as most seem to work most efficiently at about 2x the system voltage.

Thank you for keeping us updated! 

animatt

Does seem weird. 

I have I believe one of the first pt100 commercially available. (only mention incase changes get in design) 

I have a 48v battery bank hooked up to 4 12v evergreen panels. (obviously wired in series).  I am sure it takes a bit of a hit. But works without errors. 
Gets me into asborb and some days into float. 

halfcrazy

I would try shutting do half the array and see if it is working ok. I think Darren is airing o the side of safety on 2 modules in series and I would wire it that way too but hey why not shut down half the strings and see how it works. The. You can network a second PT100 and get full output.

littleharbor2

halfcrazy said:but hey why not shit down half the strings and see how it works.

That could get pretty messy.  

Vic

Hi Ryan (halfcrazy),

Nice to see you back on this Forum.

Great meeting you at the Show in SF!

Have fun,  73   Vic   Kilo Six Italy Charlie   . .

jjj

I just bought one of these Charge Controllers, and have the same power code reading (P04), and of course when you contact the seller, they always blame the solar array.. I have done  the same thing you did. I tested my solar array, and hooked up 3 different CCs ( one 60, and on 80 amp cc), and they handled the solar array fine.. So I come to the conclusion that this Charge Controller is an over priced piece of crap, and would have been better off buying one of those 100 dollar Chinese Charge Controllers.. Unfortunately it looks like I am stuck with this finicky, under performing Charge Controller.. 

BB.

jjj, welcome to the forum, and sorry to hear of your problems...

Can you tell us a bit more about your system? The panels (Vmp and Imp, number of panels, how many in series and parallel), and the battery bank (voltage, Amp*Hour rating, number of batteries, series/parallel connections, etc.)?

And go ahead and start a new discussion... That way we can discuss your system and questions without getting confused with the original poster.

-Bill