Lithium battery choices

My Lifeline 150AH is starting to lose capacity and I am starting to contemplate a Lithium battery and two 100AH's pop up through Alibaba The LiFePO4 at about $400 and the Li(NiCoMn)O2 at about $200. I have also written to Progressive Dynamics about converting my PD 4045.
The problem is I have no idea what the difference between the two are with regards to longevity etc.

Comments

  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭
    Hi Shadowcatcher,
    I don't have any experience with Li(NiCoMn)O2 cells but, I have been using LiFePO4 cells for about a year with my system and they have performed very well. You don't have to get them through Alibaba though, I bought mine from Electric Car Parts Company. They are in Utah. They have a selection of prismatic cells from 72AH to 400AH. They also custom build battery banks to your specs. I'm sure they can answer any questions you have. This is their website.

    http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/Prismatic-Lithium-Batteries_c_1.html

    Rick
    12 x 300W Renogy PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 195AH HI Power LiFePO4 no BMS, 4000W gen.
  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 878 ✭✭✭✭
    Generally, I've seen little to no data about longevity in terms of years.  3650 cycles does not mean 10 years.
  • ShadowcatcherShadowcatcher Solar Expert Posts: 226 ✭✭
    I have looked through Electric Car Parts Company website, note they are using Chinese sourced batteries. I likely have another season or two with the Lifeline but wanted to start the process. i did find that Progressive Dynamics make a Lithium replacement head unit for out PD4045.
     
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭✭
    With another season or two, I would use them. This is evolving technology and two years could make a big difference. If you do decide to go lithium, please do tell us how it works out.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭
    12 x 300W Renogy PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 195AH HI Power LiFePO4 no BMS, 4000W gen.
  • ThomThom Solar Expert Posts: 169 ✭✭✭
    What is the lithium equivalent of my battery bank ? I have 7 years on my battery's now. System is listed below. 

    Thanks Thom
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator
  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭
    The LFP equivalent would be 280 to 300 amp hour at 12 volts or about 67% of the capacity of a flooded lead acid bank. 
    12 x 300W Renogy PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 195AH HI Power LiFePO4 no BMS, 4000W gen.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭✭
    Rick , what are the (charge) max SoC% and (depletion) min SoC% for your capacity equivalence? Assuming no added days of redundancy for no-sun days?
    thanks.

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26 #10
    @westbranch ;
    Although it is generally accepted that a range of 90% to 20% is preferred with LFP, I find it challenging to routinely charge my LFP bank this way. Over the last year I've tried various absorb settings, too low and it takes too long, too high and the voltage comes too close to the top of the charging curve. So I have settled on a range from 98% to about 30%. This assumes a very close top balance.

    Rick  

    12 x 300W Renogy PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 195AH HI Power LiFePO4 no BMS, 4000W gen.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭✭
    thanks for that explanation,  though a bit different than the~20% to 90%, your comparison is still based on using ~ 70% capacity per day, so no autonomy in the calculation... good hands on knowledge.

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, no autonomy, just a small cushion. If I could afford it, I would have a 400AH bank. But, who wouldn't.
    12 x 300W Renogy PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 195AH HI Power LiFePO4 no BMS, 4000W gen.
  • nickdearing88nickdearing88 Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    edited June 18 #13
    I posted once about Battleborn Batteries LiFePO4 drop in replacement batteries, and I know see our hosts are a dealer. After several emails and a phone call with the manufacturer, I've decided I'm going to give them a shot as soon as I finish wearing out my current AGM's. The BMS/balancing is built in, only come in 12v 100Ah but they're working on other configurations.

    They have been SPOT ON with customer service. I've received friendly, detailed answers to every question I asked. They even stated they have a pro-rated warranty after the full three year warranty is up. The nice gentleman I spoke with (can't remember his name) stated their capacity/life tests are 100% - 0% SOC with a continuous 100A draw for 3000 cycles, to 80% capacity remaining.

    He stated that larger parallel strings are less of a problem than LA due to such low internal resistance. They have an existing customer who is using 5 parallel strings (I'm sure with very good bus bars) and has had very little balance issues. The inter-string balancing is already taken care of by the built-in BMS.

    Here is link for our host selling them: https://www.solar-electric.com/battle-born-bb10012-100ah-12v-lithium-battery.html

    PS: They do use Chinese-sourced cells but they are assembled and tested in Nevada.
    Current test system: 4-100w Renogy panels mono/poly, 1 string of 4 panels in series - 24v 100Ah AGM Battleborn LiFePO4 batteries - Morningstar MPPT40 CC - 1500W Samlex PSW inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭✭
    Did you compare with the Simpliphi in the store here? American made and BMS is the plus, the negative is neither have communication for Soc or So life.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭✭
    edited June 18 #15
    ... The nice gentleman I spoke with (can't remember his name) stated their capacity/life tests are 100% - 0% SOC with a continuous 100A draw for 3000 cycles, to 80% capacity remaining ...
    RE: Battle Born test

    What is the voltage at 100% SOC?
    [edit] Appears to be "charged to" 14.4 Volts.

    What defines 0% SOC at a 100 amps draw?
    Is there a specific voltage?
    [edit] Yes, it is 11.8 Volts.

    Does the 100 Amp test actually run for 1 full hour  ( 100 Amp Hour = 100 Amps x 1 Hour )
    [edit] Nope, appears to be about 54 minutes.
  • nickdearing88nickdearing88 Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    mvas said:
    ... The nice gentleman I spoke with (can't remember his name) stated their capacity/life tests are 100% - 0% SOC with a continuous 100A draw for 3000 cycles, to 80% capacity remaining ...
    RE: Battle Born test

    What is the voltage at 100% SOC?
    [edit] Appears to be "charged to" 14.4 Volts.

    What defines 0% SOC at a 100 amps draw?
    Is there a specific voltage?
    [edit] Yes, it is 11.8 Volts.

    Does the 100 Amp test actually run for 1 full hour  ( 100 Amp Hour = 100 Amps x 1 Hour )
    [edit] Nope, appears to be about 54 minutes.
    Right. I'd love to see my AGM's match that 54 minutes.
    Current test system: 4-100w Renogy panels mono/poly, 1 string of 4 panels in series - 24v 100Ah AGM Battleborn LiFePO4 batteries - Morningstar MPPT40 CC - 1500W Samlex PSW inverter
  • nickdearing88nickdearing88 Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    Did you compare with the Simpliphi in the store here? American made and BMS is the plus, the negative is neither have communication for Soc or So life.
    Yes, I did but the Battleborn pricing is better and they appear to have stellar customer service. I would like to play with prismatic cells and a custom BMS in the future, but until then, I think these would be a good way to start.
    Current test system: 4-100w Renogy panels mono/poly, 1 string of 4 panels in series - 24v 100Ah AGM Battleborn LiFePO4 batteries - Morningstar MPPT40 CC - 1500W Samlex PSW inverter
  • ReedReed Solar Expert Posts: 54 ✭✭
    We are at 4.5 years with a 9+ kW-hr LFP battery suite (48 V nominal) on 5th wheel and 1.25 years with 4.5+ kW-hr LFP suite on a 19' Roadtrek. We have been delighted with systems. Equivalent lead acid would have probably been 800 and 400 pounds respectively for the two systems. 800 pounds would have been more than the specifications of the front bay of 5th wheel and the rear axle of pick up tow vehicle. There would have been volume to put in equivalent lead acid in Roadtrek. Chinese and Koreans seem to be the main manufacturers. A Chinese- Korean consortium has plans to build an LFP plant in Chile. Chile apparently has about 50% of easily recoverable lithium and Chilean government desires that Chile be more than a mineral extraction nation.
    Ree and Elaine
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