Tesla - Solar Roof Tiles

mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭✭

Elon Musk says Tesla will begin selling solar roof tiles ...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/05/10/tesla-solar-roof-tiles-elon-musk/101503548/
«1

Comments

  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    Hope it all works out, can you trust that face? He didn't design, conduct actual tests himself but relies on information supplied by engineers who work for him, information is not knowledge.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • dakleindaklein Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭
    What is the proposed electrical connection method for these small individual panel tiles?  Seems like a lot of connection points.
    Nail through the tile and a low voltage bus bar?   Scotch yoke connectors?
    Could they be wireless!
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    They must be Blue-tooth :)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,307 ✭✭✭✭
    Microwave power transmission.  Each install comes with 4 tin foil hats.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    I forgot about the tin foil hats. We had to wear them on the carrier Nimitz.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    Very cool tech indeed. I love when people keep advancing technology rather than just pushing the old tech over and over.
  • RoscoooRoscooo Registered Users Posts: 7
    I wish we could just jump 50 years into the future and see where solar power would be!
    From the Great White North, Love Sustainable Living and Healthy Lifestyle
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    "The warranty on tesla shingle lasts as long as the house". I wonder if that includes some % of rated solar output?.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    And the warranty on the Powerwall was for unlimited cycles. That did not last long as well as the DC powerwall which did not last long. :)

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    50 years in the future is very difficult to predict--But I would be hard pressed to see much change in the basic components.

    Solar panels are already pretty cheap and about the maximum efficiency you are going to see with "cheap materials" (silicon, glass, copper). You could see solar panels go up in efficiency from 20% to 40%--They can do that today--But it is just not worth the costs. And if my roof already fits enough panels to power my home--Paying a bunch more for smaller array is not worth much to me.

    Power electronics--The dies for power transistors are "old technology" and just getting physically larger. There is not much improvement to see here--Other than, possibly, integrating some of the other control electronics onto the power transistor die. A "minor cost improvement" and some size reduction (good for micro inverters).

    The rest of the hardware? Racking, wiring. Power is power. As long as you want X,000 Watts at Y00 volts, your wire will have to be a certain gauge and insulation type. Unlike computer processing power, there is no scaling from miniaturization other than some minor cost reductions (2x more efficient panels, 1/2 the amount of racking/wiring). At this point, it seems that the cost of solar panels ($$/Watt) is about the same costs as the racking ($$/Watt). Cutting solar panel cost by 1/2 only saves 1/4 of the array installation hardware costs (as an example).

    Computer chips+software, reliability. Can always improve--But we are at the point were small/cheap single chip computers can do all of the basics. Want a graphical user interface? Pipe the data to your existing PC or Cell Phone/Tablet. Me (especially on grid tied), I just want my system to work. Not going to pay much for bells and whistels that do not do much else (don't make more power, does not fix bad hardware, does not make up for state PUC and Utility rate plan downgrades, etc.).

    Batteries: That is the one place where solar (and alternative power sources) really need help. Lots of talk, but we are still (primarily) using the same basic Lead Acid technology as from 1859. Just improvements around the edges (better packaging, slight tweaks to chemistry, a full recycling infrastructure, automation during manufacturing, better transportation infrastructure--trucks, roads, railroads, world wide supply chain for materials, etc.).

    I have not really seen any Batteries yet that will "blow the socks off" the lead acid battery (price/performance and risk/reward). Certainly getting close with some versions of Li Ion... And there are some molten salt batteries that may make sense for utility scale batteries in the future.

    But just like cars--Still using the Otto and Diesel cycle engines today. Certainly cars are better today (cleaner, more reliable, more efficient, safer) than cars of a 100 years ago--But the Electric Car is still "not there" as there are some hurtles to overcome (battery tech, and where does all of that charging current come from if we went to >80% electric vehicles tomorrow).

    Of course, I am predicting the future, and I am predicting my predictions are wrong.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe Space-x will find some di-lithium crystals on the way to Mars?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    " I would be happy if the 50 years into the future goes a full 50 years"  --Dave :'(





    BB. said:
    50 years in the future is very difficult to predict--But I would be hard pressed to see much change in the basic components.

    Solar panels are already pretty cheap and about the maximum efficiency you are going to see with "cheap materials" (silicon, glass, copper). You could see solar panels go up in efficiency from 20% to 40%--They can do that today--But it is just not worth the costs. And if my roof already fits enough panels to power my home--Paying a bunch more for smaller array is not worth much to me.

    Power electronics--The dies for power transistors are "old technology" and just getting physically larger. There is not much improvement to see here--Other than, possibly, integrating some of the other control electronics onto the power transistor die. A "minor cost improvement" and some size reduction (good for micro inverters).

    The rest of the hardware? Racking, wiring. Power is power. As long as you want X,000 Watts at Y00 volts, your wire will have to be a certain gauge and insulation type. Unlike computer processing power, there is no scaling from miniaturization other than some minor cost reductions (2x more efficient panels, 1/2 the amount of racking/wiring). At this point, it seems that the cost of solar panels ($$/Watt) is about the same costs as the racking ($$/Watt). Cutting solar panel cost by 1/2 only saves 1/4 of the array installation hardware costs (as an example).

    Computer chips+software, reliability. Can always improve--But we are at the point were small/cheap single chip computers can do all of the basics. Want a graphical user interface? Pipe the data to your existing PC or Cell Phone/Tablet. Me (especially on grid tied), I just want my system to work. Not going to pay much for bells and whistels that do not do much else (don't make more power, does not fix bad hardware, does not make up for state PUC and Utility rate plan downgrades, etc.).

    Batteries: That is the one place where solar (and alternative power sources) really need help. Lots of talk, but we are still (primarily) using the same basic Lead Acid technology as from 1859. Just improvements around the edges (better packaging, slight tweaks to chemistry, a full recycling infrastructure, automation during manufacturing, better transportation infrastructure--trucks, roads, railroads, world wide supply chain for materials, etc.).

    I have not really seen any Batteries yet that will "blow the socks off" the lead acid battery (price/performance and risk/reward). Certainly getting close with some versions of Li Ion... And there are some molten salt batteries that may make sense for utility scale batteries in the future.

    But just like cars--Still using the Otto and Diesel cycle engines today. Certainly cars are better today (cleaner, more reliable, more efficient, safer) than cars of a 100 years ago--But the Electric Car is still "not there" as there are some hurtles to overcome (battery tech, and where does all of that charging current come from if we went to >80% electric vehicles tomorrow).

    Of course, I am predicting the future, and I am predicting my predictions are wrong.

    -Bill

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭✭
    Tesla Roof Tiles may have competition from Forward Labs in Palo Alto, California ...
    https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/31/palo-alto-startup-claims-solar-roof-makes-electricity-tesla-glass-tiles-costs-less/

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    mvas said:
    Tesla Roof Tiles may have competition from Forward Labs in Palo Alto, California ...
    https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/31/palo-alto-startup-claims-solar-roof-makes-electricity-tesla-glass-tiles-costs-less/

    That is good as Elon is bleeding 7 million a day. The Taxpayer has subsidized quite a bit more than the typical 30% at Tesla. Quite a bit!

    I searched once for a schematic of how a Tesla solar tile roof of about 6KW would look. Could not find much.....
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    I would definitely prefer the look of the tiles to the look of crappy panels bolted on as an afterthought. I also liked the German frame-less architectural panels that are available. If I were to do a house where aesthetics are a concern, ie. in a city of residential area, I would not want the same panels I slapped on the mountain house for obvious reasons.


  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭✭
    edited June 3 #17
    mvas said:
    Tesla Roof Tiles may have competition from Forward Labs in Palo Alto, California ...
    https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/31/palo-alto-startup-claims-solar-roof-makes-electricity-tesla-glass-tiles-costs-less/

    That is good as Elon is bleeding 7 million a day. The Taxpayer has subsidized quite a bit more than the typical 30% at Tesla. Quite a bit!

    I searched once for a schematic of how a Tesla solar tile roof of about 6KW would look. Could not find much.....
    Announced in Oct 2016, and now ALL expected production through Jan 1, 2018 is pre-ordered ( back-ordered ).
    Who are these people that have paid $1,000 deposit to pre-order a Tesla Solar Roof?
    The first installation of the Tesla Solar Roof Shingles should happen in June, or not?

    And Tesla will start shipping a standard sized Solar Panel with Panasonic in 2017.
    They have a non-visible sleek mounting hardware design
    https://thenextweb.com/tech/2017/04/10/tesla-panasonic-solar-panels-roof/#.tnw_wa0pGnoN
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    That is the good news mvas for Tesla fans that Panasonic is building the batteries and solar panels, along with others.
    At least Panasonic is a bankable company that does business based traditional business practice.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    Panasonic stock price:    13.73 per share USD Last Dec.    11.41
    Tesla stock price:          339.85 per share USD Last Dec. :181.00

    Panasonic is a bankable company? lol I like my Tesla stock. I bought it at 54.00 in 2013. At the same time Panasonic sold for 5.92.
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    mvas said:
    mvas said:
    Tesla Roof Tiles may have competition from Forward Labs in Palo Alto, California ...
    https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/31/palo-alto-startup-claims-solar-roof-makes-electricity-tesla-glass-tiles-costs-less/

    That is good as Elon is bleeding 7 million a day. The Taxpayer has subsidized quite a bit more than the typical 30% at Tesla. Quite a bit!

    I searched once for a schematic of how a Tesla solar tile roof of about 6KW would look. Could not find much.....
    Announced in Oct 2016, and now ALL expected production through Jan 1, 2018 is pre-ordered ( back-ordered ).
    Who are these people that have paid $1,000 deposit to pre-order a Tesla Solar Roof?
    The first installation of the Tesla Solar Roof Shingles should happen in June, or not?

    And Tesla will start shipping a standard sized Solar Panel with Panasonic in 2017.
    They have a non-visible sleek mounting hardware design
    https://thenextweb.com/tech/2017/04/10/tesla-panasonic-solar-panels-roof/#.tnw_wa0pGnoN
    Definitely pretty design, but the German frame-less is still slightly more low profile at the edges as it doesn't wrap the whole thing in a skirt. Seems like it will hold in heat somewhat.
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4 #21
    Lumisol said:
    Panasonic stock price:    13.73 per share USD Last Dec.    11.41
    Tesla stock price:          339.85 per share USD Last Dec. :181.00

    Panasonic is a bankable company? lol I like my Tesla stock. I bought it at 54.00 in 2013. At the same time Panasonic sold for 5.92.
    What are the dividend yeald of Tesla stock versus  Panasonic?  How many years in business 14 vs 90, it's not just about current share prices, those are inflated through promise of new technologies, bubbles that are sooner or later going to burst, remember Ballard, prime example. Interesting twist is Tesla is going to use Panasonic battery technology and building a plant in the US.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭✭
    The truth behind venture socialist Elon Musk & the Paris deal
    TESLA, SPACEX CEO MAKES A CAREER FREELOADING BY THE BILLIONS OFF AMERICAN TAXPAYERS.
    https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/the-truth-behind-venture-socialist-elon-musk-the-paris-deal

  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Warren Buffet once famously asked a question as a guest lecturer in an MBA finance class. How, he asked, should a business with no history of profits and no rational way of estimating future profits be valued. He went on to say he would fail any student who answered the question.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Definitely respect Mr. Buffet!  The term bankable in solar is mainly referring to commercial apps which require Tier 1 panels and inverters.
     Tier 1 is not a direct measure of quality. It is primarily based on whether the banks trust the brands enough to make large loans to solar developers who want to use the brands. But in my opinion, buying Tier 1 is the best way to reduce the risk of buying a crappy brand.
    In the world of Tier 1 there are about a dozen or so last time I looked. At the top is Sunpower with a common 25 year power warranty.

    The place where Sunpower is untouched is their 25 year product warranty. They will install a new panel if one fails to operate and do an FA (hopefully) on the old one for 25 years. Banks love that!  Sunpower is also built to last that long and uses a copper back plate and many other expensive manufacturing details that one can research.

    For tracking, I need max power per square foot and Sunpower and Panasonic/the old Sanyo fit my requirements. I place solar on the ground for offgrid and save the roof for keeping water out of the house and into the tanks!  :)

    Next in Tier 1 bank-ability is Panasonic with a 15 year product warranty. I stopped using Sunpower because it was too expensive/hard for me to buy for my clients. I can buy a 320 watt Panasonic for about 1$ a watt and Sunpower is over twice. LG also has some very nice solar panels. 

    My supplier is so pissed off at Tesla that is will take quite a bit of time to mend the issues. They are the largest where-house in the Americas.


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    LOL a guest lecturer cannot fail a student! Good try though. :)
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    Definitely respect Mr. Buffet!  

    I have most of the same stocks as Buffet but have added a few extras. Tesla netted me enough profits to buy a S Sedan and still have a very sizable holding in the company. Basically by supporting the company, they gave me a free car. That's a good investment in my book. :)
    Panasonic is good for stability, Tesla has been a ton better for growth, and I am currently at the stage where I do both, but mostly growth.
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    Estragon said:
    Warren Buffet once famously asked a question as a guest lecturer in an MBA finance class. How, he asked, should a business with no history of profits and no rational way of estimating future profits be valued. He went on to say he would fail any student who answered the question.
    Sounds like Netflix, Amazon, Google, Ebay, and most all of the dotnet stocks. A brand new business model does not mean it's not the future business model.
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    mcgivor said:
    Lumisol said:
    Panasonic stock price:    13.73 per share USD Last Dec.    11.41
    Tesla stock price:          339.85 per share USD Last Dec. :181.00

    Panasonic is a bankable company? lol I like my Tesla stock. I bought it at 54.00 in 2013. At the same time Panasonic sold for 5.92.
    What are the dividend yeald of Tesla stock versus  Panasonic?  How many years in business 14 vs 90, it's not just about current share prices, those are inflated through promise of new technologies, bubbles that are sooner or later going to burst, remember Ballard, prime example. Interesting twist is Tesla is going to use Panasonic battery technology and building a plant in the US.
    Even adding in the dividend, Tesla has still way outperformed Panasonic. Add 13 cents and it's still 2.00 profit vs 158.00 profit. 
    You keep the 13 cents and I'll be happier with 158.00. If you want, I will give you as many lots of 2.00 for the price of 156.00 each all day every day. Want to trade still?
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    > @Lumisol said:
    > Estragon said:
    >
    >
    > Warren Buffet once famously asked a question as a guest lecturer in an MBA finance class. How, he asked, should a business with no history of profits and no rational way of estimating future profits be valued. He went on to say he would fail any student who answered the question.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Sounds like Netflix, Amazon, Google, Ebay, and most all of the dotnet stocks. A brand new business model does not mean it's not the future business model.

    I have no opinion on the value of Tesla. If you made money on it, good on you. The point of the quote is that there is no rational way to value this type of company.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    Money in your pocket makes it a value. :) It's simple.
  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭✭
    Mercedes-Benz and Vivint Solar partner to compete with Tesla in home energy
    Mercedes-Benz Energy will combine home energy storage with Vivint solar panels in the U.S.
    Will be available first to California homeowners in the second quarter.
    Product is very similar to those offered by Tesla.
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.