battery pack 400ah consising of 12v/200ah 8 pcs

robocoprobocop Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭

have batt pack 8 pcs 12v/200ah forming total  48v/400ah


how many batt do I have to add to form a 600ah  batt pack or a 800 ah batt pack


thx to all


  

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,768 admin
    Each string of 4x batteries (12 volts @ 200 AH) gives you a 48 Volts @ 200 AH string.

    3x parallel strings (3x4=12 batteries) = 48 volts @ 600 AH.

    Series batteries add voltage.

    Parallel battery strings add Amp*Hours.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,249 ✭✭✭✭
    before you get too excited about paralleling up batteries to reach your desired amp hours, look into 600 or 800ah 4V cells.
    Lots less caps to open to check battery water, and solves the parallel string problems
    https://www.solar-electric.com/residential/batteries-battery-storage/deep-cycle-batteries.html?nav_battery_voltage=4+Volts

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 409 ✭✭✭✭
    I like 2v cells better :-)
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited May 8 #5
    Lol you are looking at filling up a lot more space with smaller voltage batteries, that's the tradeoff and in a remote location or creating a mobile system it can be a deal breaker.
    If you don't mind adding on an extra room for batteries it can work.
    It was a deal breaker for my remote mountain hideaway affectionately dubbed the fortress of solitude. ;)
  • robocoprobocop Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭
    just e remark some say agm batt better orhers gel batt better confused
  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 418 ✭✭✭✭
    From the forum sponsors website.

    Gelled Electrolyte

    Gelled batteries, or "Gel Cells" contain acid that has been "gelled" by the addition of Silica Gel, turning the acid into a solid mass that looks like gooey Jell-O. The advantage of these batteries is that it is impossible to spill acid even if they are broken. However, there are several disadvantages. One is that they must be charged at a slower rate (C/20) to prevent excess gas from damaging the cells. They cannot be fast charged on a conventional automotive charger or they may be permanently damaged. This is not usually a problem with solar electric systems, but if an auxiliary generator or inverter bulk charger is used, current must be limited to the manufacturers specifications. Most better inverters commonly used in solar electric systems can be set to limit charging current to the batteries.

    Some other disadvantages of gel cells is that they must be charged at a lower voltage (2/10th's less) than flooded or AGM batteries. If overcharged, voids can develop in the gel which will never heal, causing a loss in battery capacity. In hot climates, water loss can be enough over 2-4 years to cause premature battery death. It is for this and other reasons that we no longer sell any of the gelled cells except for replacement use. The newer AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries have all the advantages (and then some) of gelled, with none of the disadvantages.

    Rick

    12 x 300W Renogy PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 195AH HI Power LiFePO4 no BMS, 4000W gen.
  • robocoprobocop Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭
    waw thnks for the explanayion so better agm   thx
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 409 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10 #9
    Lumisol said:
    Lol you are looking at filling up a lot more space with smaller voltage batteries, that's the tradeoff and in a remote location or creating a mobile system it can be a deal breaker.
    If you don't mind adding on an extra room for batteries it can work.
    It was a deal breaker for my remote mountain hideaway affectionately dubbed the fortress of solitude. ;)
    Not sure what you are trying to say with the LOL?

    Any given battery bank capacity won't appreciably change in size or weight with 2v, 4v, 6v, or 12v batteries of the same chemistry and type.  Battery voltage selection is more about the number of parallel connections, redundancy and form factor.

    Example using very small batteries, but the concept scales up or down:
    A group 31, 12v battery with 125 ah = 1500 watt hours
    A group 31, 2v battery with 750 ah = 1500 watt hours

    If a customer says that he wants to use 6 of the 12v batteries in parallel to get to his required battery bank size, I would point out that 6 of the 2v battery in series would the same capacity, same size and same weight.

    I have to say that too many parallel connections is a deal breaker for some folks.

    Marc
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    Lumisol said:
    Lol you are looking at filling up a lot more space with smaller voltage batteries, that's the tradeoff and in a remote location or creating a mobile system it can be a deal breaker.
    If you don't mind adding on an extra room for batteries it can work.
    It was a deal breaker for my remote mountain hideaway affectionately dubbed the fortress of solitude. ;)
    Not sure what you are trying to say with the LOL?

    Any given battery bank capacity won't appreciably change in size or weight with 2v, 4v, 6v, or 12v batteries of the same chemistry and type.  Battery voltage selection is more about the number of parallel connections, redundancy and form factor.

    Example using very small batteries, but the concept scales up or down:
    A group 31, 12v battery with 125 ah = 1500 watt hours
    A group 31, 2v battery with 750 ah = 1500 watt hours

    If a customer says that he wants to use 6 of the 12v batteries in parallel to get to his required battery bank size, I would point out that 6 of the 2v battery in series would the same capacity, same size and same weight.

    I have to say that too many parallel connections is a deal breaker for some folks.

    Marc
    LOL = laugh out loud. The post made me chuckle but since there isn't a CSTMS I went with the standard form. :)
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 409 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12 #11
    Sorry if I wasn't clear:

    Yes, I do understand what LOL means. I was politely asking why you thought that it was funny. I was simply asking why you said what you did about 2v cells.

    Your comments just don't make sense to me. I even posted an example to help clarify why I feel that way.
    Did you understand my example? I was using real numbers, from real battery systems that I work with.

    Help me to understand the thought process behind your comments about 2v cells. I learn a lot from folks around here.

    Marc
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 409 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13 #12
    FWIW, I just quoted (12) small 2v batteries for a 24v, 500 ah battery bank for a remote location. Should ship in two weeks.

    These are little Group 24 batteries at 57 lbs. each. The owner wanted to go this way instead of using fewer big batteries to simplify moving/carrying them into the below grade location. As is typical for these, they will sit on shelves - in this case three rows of four batteries - needing minimal floor space. 

    The owner also said that he will be able to keep functioning if he loses one cell by re-programming his system as a nominal 22v system, with over 90% storage capacity.

    Whether it's avoidance of too many parallel strings or something like this example, 2v batteries make a lot of sense for some applications. But certainly not all.

    Marc
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭
    It would be an interesting design to add one extra 2V cell to a 48V string, knowing that eventually a cell or two will go bad and could be removed.   Would have to verify that everything could handle/be adjusted for the extended voltage range.
  • robocoprobocop Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭

    so gentlemen a question  8 pcs 12v/250ah form  500ah combining them series/parallel

    so would it be better to use 6v or 2 v batteries .

    I will be using more batteries  and paying more I think

  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭
    You would be using less 2V cells, if 500 Ah cells were used. Each 12V battery is made up of 6 2V cells in series, so in essence 8 12V 250Ah batteries wired series parallel would have 48 cells in total, with 2V 500 Ah cells you would need 24 in series, no parallel connections needed. The advantage of 2V cells are, less cells to add water if flooded, no parallel strings to be concerned with balancing  charge and discharge currents  and essentially a simpler setup to maintain. Remember 24 2V cells in series  makes a 48v battery, as far as cost is concerned you are buying lead, but generally the 2V cells  will have thicker plates and weigh more, this in turn makes them more robust, cost more but  have a longer life expectancy, so it's a tradeoff. 
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭✭
    edited May 14 #16
    Some "smaller" 2 Volt Flooded Lead Acid batteries:

    Crown 710      =  500 AH @ $550
    Victron 910     =  700 AH @ $430
    Rolls 1450      = 1124 AH @ $360
    Trojan L16RE = 1100 AH @ $500

    Which other name brand manufacturer makes 2 Volt 500AH Flooded Lead Acid battery?

    "AH per dollar" varies dramatically
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 409 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14 #17
    robocop said:

    so gentlemen a question  8 pcs 12v/250ah form  500ah combining them series/parallel

    so would it be better to use 6v or 2 v batteries .

    I will be using more batteries  and paying more I think


    Yes. At least in my limited world of AGM's, using larger batteries is always less expensive per ah. In this example, the cost of going 2v would be 25% more.

    Every battery bank is about compromises between cost, longevity, performance and maintenance.

    Your proposed system with two strings of 12v, 250 ah batteries is actually common because it is comparatively low cost when 500 ah is needed. It is important to realize that the deeper the battery bank gets cycled daily, the less desirable parallel strings are.
    On very shallow cycle or grid-tied battery back up systems, parallel connections have a small impact because the batteries spend much of their life on float.

    If you can live with 400ah to 475 ah, a very popular approach is to use 8, 6v L16 size batteries in series. This tends to be a good balance of cost and longevity.

    The advantages to 2v cells may not be worth the cost in your application - only you can decide that. The beauty is that you get to select what you are willing to compromise!

    Marc





    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 409 ✭✭✭✭
    mvas said:
    Some "smaller" 2 Volt Flooded Lead Acid batteries:

    Crown 710      =  500 AH @ $550
    Victron 910     =  700 AH @ $430
    Rolls 1450      = 1124 AH @ $360
    Trojan L16RE = 1100 AH @ $500

    Which other name brand manufacturer makes 2 Volt 500AH Flooded Lead Acid battery?

    "AH per dollar" varies dramatically

    Again - I am an AGM guy. Our sponsor sells the Concorde 534 ah 2v for under $300. and the 670 ah for $50. more.

    https://www.solar-electric.com/residential/batteries-battery-storage/deep-cycle-batteries.html?manufacturer=Concorde+Battery&nav_battery_voltage=2+Volts

    Marc
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭
    mvas said:
    Some "smaller" 2 Volt Flooded Lead Acid batteries:

    Crown 710      =  500 AH @ $550
    Victron 910     =  700 AH @ $430
    Rolls 1450      = 1124 AH @ $360
    Trojan L16RE = 1100 AH @ $500

    Which other name brand manufacturer makes 2 Volt 500AH Flooded Lead Acid battery?

    "AH per dollar" varies dramatically
    Not being critical, a 2V cell is not a battery, a battery is a group of cells in series, just a clarification for the benifit of the OP, hope you appreciate this, again no offense implied. 
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 418 ✭✭✭✭
    Two strings of AGM 250AH will work fine for your application since the A/C will be running only in the daytime and the battery bank will probably be cycling to about 80% state of charge.

    Rick
    12 x 300W Renogy PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 195AH HI Power LiFePO4 no BMS, 4000W gen.
  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭✭
    edited May 14 #21
    mcgivor said:
    Not being critical, a 2V cell is not a battery, a battery is a group of cells in series, just a clarification for the benifit of the OP, hope you appreciate this, again no offense implied. 
    If you don't mind, I prefer to use the naming convention per the Battery Manufacturers: Trojan, Rolls, Crown, etc.
    As they are the authority regarding their 2 Volt Batteries.

    Per Trojan ...
    " L16RE-2V 1110 AH 2-Volt Deep Cycle Battery"
    https://www.solar-electric.com/trl111ah2dec.html

    Per Rolls ...
    "2 Volt Sealed S2-590 AGM Deep Cycle Battery"
    https://www.solar-electric.com/rolls-surrette-sealed-deep-cycle-s2-590agm.html

    Even if a battery is made with a single cell, it is still called a battery by the manufacturer.  Get back to me when you convince the Battery Manufacturers to change the name of their "2 Volt Batteries" to "2 Volt Cells". 


    P.S.
    My EverReady 1.5 Volt Alkaline Flashlight Battery is made from a single D cell,
    but yet "Flashlight Battery" is actually printed on the label.

    My Rayovac 1.2 Volt NiMH battery states, "Rechargeable Battery" on the label even though it is a singe AAA cell.

    Trojan does not agree with you.
    Rolls does not agree with you.
    Crown does not agree with you.
    Victron does not agree with you.
    Ever Ready does not agree with you.
    Rayovac does not agree with you.

    So, actually you are being critical, unjustifiably critical. 
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15 #22
    Those with a formal electrical education should  understand the difference between cell and battery, although the term battery is commonly misused to define a cell, doesn't make it correct, no matter who or which company  misuses the terminology. For the purpose of explanation I merely pointed out the difference, hense the not being critical or offensive, however @mivas , as you have demonstrated here and in the past, you respond to anything you disagree with, by creating  offensive self-righteous responses, despite requesting you not be offended. Discussions are best kept friendly without attacking a point made, wether correct or incorrect.


    https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/batteries-and-charging/battery-terms-glossary.html
    http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/power-management/battery-technology/definitions-terminology.php
    http://www.autobatteries.com/en-us/how-car-batteries-work/battery-glossary
    https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/batteries-and-charging/battery-terms-glossary.html
    http://searchmobilecomputing.techtarget.com/definition/cell
    https://www.chem.wisc.edu/deptfiles/genchem/netorial/rottosen/tutorial/modules/electrochemistry/06battery/18_61.htm
    http://www.kirkmahoney.com/blog/2008/11/battery-vs-cell/
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_pack
    http://www.engineersedge.com/battery/cells_vs_batteries.htm
    http://resources.schoolscience.co.uk/britishenergy/11-14/circh1pg2.html
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited May 15 #23

    Kind of how people say solar panels instead of photo-voltaic array.

    I don't see it as a big deal, it's just common terms and verbal shorthand.

    Why do we call salicylic acid, "aspirin"?

    Why do we call cyanoacrylate 'super glue'?

  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16 #24
    Technically  it's a Solar "module".

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 694 ✭✭✭✭
    mcgivor said:
    Not being critical, a 2V cell is not a battery, a battery is a group of cells in series, just a clarification for the benifit of the OP, hope you appreciate this, again no offense implied. 
    Well, no.  A cellphone has a battery that is a single cell.  A battery can be any number of cells in series/parallel, including one.
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16 #26
    mcgivor said:
    Not being critical, a 2V cell is not a battery, a battery is a group of cells in series, just a clarification for the benifit of the OP, hope you appreciate this, again no offense implied. 
    Well, no.  A cellphone has a battery that is a single cell.  A battery can be any number of cells in series/parallel, including one.
    Different consensus wherever you look so in the end its probably a case of .......

    You like potato and I like potahto
    You like tomato and I like tomahto
    Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto
    Let's call the whole thing off


      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    I have never seen those spelling for those words. They *could* be wrong.
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭
    Lumisol said:
    I have never seen those spelling for those words. They *could* be wrong.
    As it was written, phonetical manipulation ?

     https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858893622/
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    Ah, perhaps, pəˈtādō, pəˈtôdō is what they meant then.
Sign In or Register to comment.