Supply for 60 amp shore power connection

13

Comments

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited April 9 #62


    Photowhit said:
    Lumisol said:
    I am staying away from flooded cells, I have neither the time nor the inclination to be messing around with topping off batteries and venting hydrogen gas.
    You might seriously reconsider doing solar, You need to pay attention daily to loads and state of charge of your battery bank. It will never be as simple as flipping a switch and you may well become frustrated and could well waste money very quickly, in dead batteries.
    I have been considering the options for 3 years, thanks. I have no problem being alert to changing conditions, I am a tech for a major printing company and am in charge of 28 iGen presses each costing 750,000.00 and each requiring constant monitoring and maintenance.
    I will watch the loads and rates of charge and discharge while I am there, I will not be playing with maintenance of batteries though, I bought the AGM cells for that reason.

    mcgivor I did a little more looking around and found this one:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EWCV62S/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AWPBFTW0ZXVPR

    Looks like a winner to me.

    So the last bit to add is the charge controller...any thoughts?

    How about this one?  https://www.solar-electric.com/morningstar-tristar-ts-mppt-30.html
    with this:  https://www.solar-electric.com/motrrmredime.html

    I am using 4 of these panels wired in 2 strings for 1160 watts at 89.4 volts:

    • STC Power Rating 290W
    • PTC Power Rating 260.8W 1
    • STC Power per unit of area 13.7W/ft2 (147.5W/m2)
    • Peak Efficiency 14.75%
    • Power Tolerances -3%/+3%
    • Number of Cells 72
    • Nominal Voltage not applicable
    • Imp 7.99A
    • Vmp 36.3V
    • Isc 8.5A
    • Voc 44.7V
    • NOCT 45°C
    • Temp. Coefficient of Power -0.44%/K
    • Temp. Coefficient of Voltage -0.148V/K
    • Series Fuse Rating 10A
    • Maximum System Voltage 600V
    Physical Charecteristics:
    • Type Polycrystalline Silicon
    • Output Terminal Type Multicontact Connector Type 4
    • Output Cable Wire Type PV Wire
    • Frame Color Clear
    • Length 77.4in (1,966mm)
    • Width 39.4in (1,000mm)
    • Depth 2in (50mm)
    • Weight 57.3lb (26kg)
    • Installation Method Rack-Mounted
    A bank of 8 of these batteries in series for 48 volt at 225ah:
     Nominal Voltage20Hr CapacityRC (min)
     Energy
    (kWH)
     Terminal Posts DimensionsWeight 
    Charging Current* 
    Charging Voltage 
    Float Voltage 
     6V225AH
    500
     1.5508mm (included) 
    9.5"w x 7.3"d x 11"h72lb 
    15A-55A
    6.9-7.05V 
    6.69V-6.81V 

    This inverter:
    • COTEK ST2000-148
    • 2000W, 48VDC -> 115VAC
    • PURE SINE WAVE INVERTER
    and this charge controller: 
    Morningstar TriStar 30 amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller

    What else will I be needing?

  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    The inverter would be a good choice in leu of spending 3 times as much or more for the best money can buy.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,307 ✭✭✭✭
    Lumisol said:

    So the last bit to add is the charge controller...any thoughts?

    So, would you mind a quick summary of what has been decided on so far ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    @Lumisol said
    and this charge controller: 
    Morningstar TriStar 30 amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller

    What else will I be needing?

    Other than the obvious ballance of system, cables, breakers/fuses and so forth, I would highly recommend a Morningstar  TS R (or RM ) 2 meter, not essential to the operation of the controller, but a handy window which allows  an instant real time data, logs and diagnostic menus without having to connect a computer, however for more detailed logging and custom settings a computer is needed.
    Did you use the Morningstar string calculator to verify your panels strings  are am optimum configuration? 

    http://string-calculator.morningstarcorp.com/

    You mentioned earlier the panel mounting, will they be south facing? 

    Edit, see you already included the remote meter 
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    You will likely also want to think about mounting/racking.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    If I did this right...
    http://string-calculator.morningstarcorp.com/#manufacturer=424&module=10510&product=0&vmin=55.2&vmax=56.4&tmin=5&tmax=66.8&tminunits=f&tmaxunits=f

    I put in the min and max voltage for the system by multiplying the individual battery charge voltages by 8.
    ie. 6.9 x 8 = 55.2 and 7.05 x 8 = 56.4


    mcgivor said:

    Other than the obvious ballance of system, cables, breakers/fuses and so forth, I would highly recommend a Morningstar  TS R (or RM ) 2 meter, not essential to the operation of the controller, but a handy window which allows  an instant real time data, logs and diagnostic menus without having to connect a computer, however for more detailed logging and custom settings a computer is needed.

    Is a laptop fine for this purpose?  I have this one: https://www.asus.com/us/ROG-Republic-Of-Gamers/ROG-G750JW/
    updated to windows 10 pro.
    There is no phone up there, however there is a phone connection at the property line. Will I need to get a phoneline put in and have internet (to monitor it) or can the system just be shut down when we are gone? (disconnects between the array and charge controller, and one on each end of the battery bank to isolate the batteries)
    Will these work as disconnects?
    https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Surface-Circuit/dp/B005168AOG/ref=pd_rhf_dp_p_img_6?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=3Y7K3VX6CVXY02GMD9B2

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,307 ✭✭✭✭
    I plug a plain wi-i router  in, and connect the TS-MPPT-60 to it, and log in with the laptop or android and browse to the web page the controller serves up.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    so you don't even need an internet connection then. I like the Victron as it uses a bluetooth connection and needs no net either.
    Does the MS have a bluetooth option?
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    Lumisol said:

    Now there's the question which will have opinions, only had experience with Morningstar PWM, both have a good reputation, the TriStar is the more mature of the two, the giant heatsink keeps it cool, other than that, there are always reviews, for what they're worth, otherwise you are looking at good equipment either way.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    One advantage to the kid is it will protect itself to a point if overvoltaged on an exceptionally cold day instead of dying and voiding warranty. Only a consideration if your strings are configured with Voc close to 150v.

    The WBjr is good in that it allows termination of absorb based on current going to battery.

    As Mcgivor says, both companies are well regarded. I've had no big issues with my MN classics. My Morningstar inverter also no issues, and I just bought a couple of their PWM controllers.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,307 ✭✭✭✭
    Lumisol said:
    so you don't even need an internet connection then. I like the Victron as it uses a bluetooth connection and needs no net either.
    Does the MS have a bluetooth option?
    No BT for MS. :(
    My power shed is 200' from my office, and good wi-fi gear handles the range well.  In the power shed I use my phone
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    > @Estragon said:
    > One advantage to the kid is it will protect itself to a point if overvoltaged on an exceptionally cold day instead of dying and voiding warranty. Only a consideration if your strings are configured with Voc close to 150v.
    >
    > The WBjr is good in that it allows termination of absorb based on current going to battery.
    >
    > As Mcgivor says, both companies are well regarded. I've had no big issues with my MN classics. My Morningstar inverter also no issues, and I just bought a couple of their PWM controllers.

    You prefer pulse wave over point tracking?
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    I think the MN kid is mppt. Brat is pwm.

    As far as mppt vs pwm, I don't really have a preference - it depends on the application. If I don't need mppt, pwm tends to be cheaper, simpler, and lower self-consumption. The MS pwm controllers I just bought are really just to keep a charge on batteries over the winter, so pwm seemed to fit the need.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭

    The panel array is 1160 watts 89.4 volts 17 amp max
    Each panel is 290 watts 44.7 volts 8.5 amp max

    What am I forgetting here?
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    Grounding for the CC , fuse/breaker at the battery, temperature sensor and voltage sense wires. Just minor details 
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 4,280 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11 #78
    mcgivor said:
    Grounding for the CC... 

    Actually, I think this is an RV or trailer. I would not ground to the frame and rather float the system. I think this would be safer in general.

    Bill or RV forums might have better ideas on this, I just feel if there is a short, then any metal piece that's grounded could become live in relation to other parts of the system. The frame would provide no real ground being nicely insulated with rubber wheels.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    Photowhit said:
    mcgivor said:
    Grounding for the CC... 

    Actually, I think this is an RV or trailer. I would not ground to the frame and rather float the system. I think this would be safer in general.

    Bill or RV forums might have better ideas on this, I just feel if there is a short, then any metal piece that's grounded could become live in relation to other parts of the system. The frame would provide no real ground being nicely insulated with rubber wheels.
    Forgot it was an RV, good point.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited April 11 #80
    I am grounding the panels to a rod in the ground.
    I am still deciding if I want it inside the RV or in a shed beside it with monitors in the RV.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    In general, all major metal objects should be tied together with green wire ground bonding (frames, gas and water plumbing, electrical boxes and conduit, etc.). This is the common method for safety grounding. And allowing the use of breakers only on the "hot leads" of a battery bank/AC wiring (sine wave/utility power with common return wire/neutral bonding). There are various grounding/shorting/failure modes where a single breaker on the "hot or positive" wiring and no over current protection on the return wires (negative, AC neutral), can cause over current and over heating of return wiring.

    Earth grounding (ground rod, ground plates, etc.) are, more or less, for lightning and static charge grounding. If you have no lightning in the area and no tall insulated metal structures (antenna masts, solar panels with frames, etc.)... You can get way without earth ground connection (i.e., mobile equipment, RVs, cars, etc.).

    Earth grounds are generally not "great" electrical connections (25 Ohms is NEC minimum resistance for a "good" ground connection). Earth grounding does not really play a big role in "safety grounding" other than lightning and static charge dissipation.

    If you have, for example, AC power (or battery) going from your house to an out building/well pump, and such--You put local ground rod/plate at the building, and run a 6 AWG (12 AWG-14 AWG can be used) from the the outbuilding ground rod back to the main ground rod at the home. This ties the two together electrically and will allow a short circuit from AC hot to ground at the out building to shunt current back to the source (main home panel) and trip the panel breaker.

    If you do not run a heavy copper ground wire from the out building back to the main home ground--You run the risk of (for example) a Hot to metal electrical box short energizing the box with rspect to ground. The 25 ohm ground rod connection to earth does not pass enough current to trip the source breaker (120 VAC / 25 Ohms = 4.8 amps-- Not near enough to trip a 15 amp panel breaker--Leaving the metal "ground to ground rod" objects electrified with respect to other grounds--I.e., electrical box "hot" with respect to well casing).

    There are other reasons for earth bonding (the earth ground is the other half of a typical radio/transmitter antenna, some florescent tube fixtures "start" better when chassis is grounded, certain flame detection circuits on spark ignition stoves do not work if not neutral bonded to earth ground)--But for most people, these are 3rd level grounding issues.

    I am not very worried about bringing a 6 AWG ground wire from a remote ground rod to the main ground rod of a home bringing in lightning energy into the home. Lightning energy will only follow a 6 AWG 10-20 feet or so--Past that, it will find a different path to earth (higher "impedance" to high frequency current flow).

    What I suggest not doing--For example, the green wire ground (and even the +/- from the array from your roof mounted solar panel brought down into the middle of the home. This is bringing lightning energy into your home. Run the solar ground directly on the outside wall down to the ground rod (outside the foundation of the wall). The +/- array enters the home through a metal transition box on the side of the home (with surge supressors if you are in lightning prone area, metal box grounded to ground rod). This provides a path for lightning to earth ground without going into your home (high frequency current--including lighting strike energy--always want to go as far away from the center because of the generated magnetic field). One example of this is the "skin effect" of AC current flow--The current wants to flow in the "skin" of the wiring.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect

    There are a lot of rules for all of this--Lightning and safety is a very complex subject. The above is just a 50,000 foot view of the very basics. There are times when NEC and Good Lightning Control guidelines are in a bit of opposition.

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited April 13 #82
    This is why you never use conductive electrical boxes.
    The outbuilding is right next to the RV so anything that follows for 10 feet will be inside it.lol
    Being inside a conductive box is like a Faraday cage anyways so it's pretty safe as long as you are not in contact with the conductive walls.
  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 876 ✭✭✭✭
    > Lightning energy will only follow a 6 AWG 10-20 feet or so

    My understanding is that lightning induced voltages or ground level differences (ie, not direct strikes) are happy to travel long distances through wires.    Surge protectors help some.

    But I agree, you can't rely on the earth to be a high current return path.  Even with a ground wire to provide that, a GFCI is a good idea (it will protect even when the ground wire is accidentally cut).  

    If you are going to float any metal parts, then I'd definitely use a GFCI.
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited April 13 #84
    The RV has 4 Jacks that drop from the frame to the ground and also a ground rod will be used to ground the frames on the panels.
    Some areas have codes that require this and some do not.
  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 876 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16 #85
    That's maybe helpful for lightning and ineffective in terms of reducing shock hazard.
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited April 13 #86
    The equipment I have has safegaurds built into it for shock hazard doesn't it? It says it does.
    I also believe the RV's electrical system is already set up to reduce shock hazards.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    RVs actually become a bit complicated if you want to follow the "AC ground bonded neutral" standard. When plugged into the AC mains at the home/trailer park, the Neutral Bond is done at the main AC panel outside the RV. When running from internal Generator or AC inverter, the ground bonded neutral is done by the local RV itself (the genset may provide the AC neutral bonding and/or the AC inverter may provide the Neutral Bonding). Typically a transfer switch/relay or two is used to implement the AC neutral bonding when AC power is transferred from external to internal AC power.

    A good way to reduce the chances of shock (for AC power) is to use GFI protected outlets.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • LumisolLumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited April 15 #88
    I think that since in a home the electrical panel ground is tied to a ground rod that using a ground rod to ground the panels and the inverter to will be good. If this is wrong let me know a better way. I have not looked at the grounds for the AC panel in the RV yet so I don't know how that's done to be honest. Is it possible to have too much ground? I know that in a car the 12 volt system is grounded through the body of the car, not sure if the RV is the same or different due to having an AC system in it which also has grounding as well.
    BB. said:


    A good way to reduce the chances of shock (for AC power) is to use GFI protected outlets.

    -Bill

    You think that just switching the current outlets with GFCI type will be enough or should I still ground the inverter to a rod?

    I also have a question about the tristar 30 amp mppt controller if anyone uses them. I was wondering if it has a way to sense the current in it or if it's possible to use a whizbang jr and shunt to supply that data to the unit or if it would need to be sent to a separate display for monitoring that?
    I have one on the way, but it hasn't yet arrived.

    Also, I was reading the book for the inverter and it says to use a 70 amp inline fuse to the DC input from the battery. EDIT: I found this one will a breaker work in place of a fuse? https://www.amazon.com/Lumision-Waterproof-Automotive-Circuit-Breaker/dp/B01MU7VO1N/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1492292632&sr=8-2-fkmr2&keywords=inline+breaker+70+amp+48+volt+DC
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    A GFI outlet is a good safety measure--If you have a MSW (modified square/sine wave AC inverter), it is possible that you will get false trips with a GFI (the MSW waveform can cause the false trip of the GFI).

    One GFI outlet can be wired directly to the inverter output/first outlet on the branch circuit, and you can connect the wiring from that GFI output terminals to the rest of the outlets and you will get GFI protection on all of those downstream outlets too.

    I suggest you do not use one GFI outlet (or GFI breaker) to protect all AC wiring if you have AC lights and outlets. If you trip the one GFI, it will plunge you into darkness. Two GFI circuits, one for outlet(s), and a second for AC lighting, will leave the lights on if an outlet trips.

    The Wizbang Jr. shunt, as far as I know, is designed to integrate only with some Midnite solar charge controllers. The Wizbang has a digital data output and (at the present time?) does not integrate into any stand alone battery monitors/other brands of charge controllers (the shunt is a standard unit--It is the analog to digital converter board that makes it a Midnite only device).

    Regarding the 70 amp breaker--Looks like it will be fine. As always, read the instructions/specifications for the breaker. Sometimes they have limitations (must mount on vertical surface) or other requirements that you can trip across.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16 #90
    The TriStar Meter RM2, displays charging current, voltage along with other recorded data, it doesn't however monitor output current  to the inverter.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 4,280 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16 #91
    While it won't send information to the charge controller, Trimetric is a very good stand alone, shunt based battery monitor. While much better than voltage based meters/monitors, it can be confusing and must be setup properly.

    https://www.solar-electric.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=trimetric
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
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