15 billion for a wall , how many panels and watts would 15 billion buy

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  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭
    Johann said:

    The US could handle 5,000 illegal folks in 45 years. It is estimated that 10 millions are illegal in the US and that is a problem.
    A $60 billion one-time expense for the wall is much cheaper than spending $150 billion every year for illegals.

     
    OK so let's say we do all that, and spend the billions a year to keep all those people out.   (For all the staffing in the guard towers, the dog training, maintenance, towns for the workers etc etc.) If the fence is just as effective as the Berlin fence, then it would allow 165,000 people through, since it would be 33 times longer.

    Now you have an extra, say $10 billion in expenses a year (not counting the cost of building the wall) and you've lost the $10 billion or so that illegal immigrants pay in taxes.  And the $150 billion or so that they contribute to the economy through their spending.  And US farmers become uncompetitive with Mexican farmers due to loss of cheap labor.

    Who pays for all that?

    I'd much rather take all that money, build a superconducting HVDC grid and employ the thousands of people it would take to build it.  When you're done, you have a superconducting grid to benefit the public, instead of a wall that (like all walls) will just be torn down.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,874 admin
    It has been estimated that Visa Overstays are around 40-50%+ of the folks who are in the US without proper documentation... And the numbers are, probably deliberately, vague to (in my humble opinion) allow different political figures to make differing claims to ensure their re-election/jobs.

    It is a big problem that has no easy answers--Unless you want to have "internal passports/National ID" that are tied to jobs/banking/housing/etc.

    I am not a fan of even bigger government either.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,874 admin
    edited February 6 #34
    I guess now Canada can ask the same question about the US/Canadian Border:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/worried-trump-asylum-seekers-walk-cold-road-canada-183626789.html

    WINNIPEG, Manitoba/BUFFALO, New York (Reuters) - Refugees in the United States fearing a worsening climate of xenophobia in the wake of a divisive U.S. presidential campaign are flocking to Canada in growing numbers.

    Manitoba's Welcome Place refugee agency helped 91 claimants between Nov. 1 and Jan. 25 - more than the agency normally sees in a year. Most braved the freezing prairie winter to walk into Canada...

    Not as much sun as our southern border...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭✭
    I am with you Bill  :)  Lost a few young men in my extended family to drugs and if a wall can slow it down it will be a decent investment.

    Knowing what someone like Mangas a member here goes through also makes the case for at least a virtual wall with teeth behind it!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
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  • MangasMangas Solar Expert Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7 #36
    Our area is vastly remote, mountainous with some of the most rugged country in the U.S.

    Technology is only one layer of security and fallible with many limitations.

    The recurring cost to ranchers, landowners, families and the environment is in the many billions of dollars.

    As someone on the ground, I have become unwillingly knowledgeable.



    Ranch Off Grid System: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF House Construction, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭✭
    Mangas said:
    Our area is vastly remote, mountainous with some of the most rugged country in the U.S.

    Technology is only one layer of security and fallible with many limitations.

    The recurring cost to ranchers, landowners, families and the environment is in the many billions of dollars.

    As someone on the ground, I have become unwillingly knowledgeable.



    Sounds like you may be in Arizona? I've seen footage of cougars and other elusive animals close to the Arizona/Mexico border. Rumors of occasional panthers?

    Sorry for the distraction but I'm a big fan of rugged, remote country that makes life possible for rare animals.

    Undocumented citizenry is a pretty big problem. Is there any way that an undocumented citizen is going to directly pay any taxes....other than sales?

    I don't blame the Mexicans for seeking better opportunities. However...it is my understanding that it is pretty easy to do things legally.

    Creating a viable wall will be a lot more expensive than anticipated. What government project had a final cost that resembled estimates?

    This isn't my favorite battle. I see bigger fish to fry at the moment. Not saying the battle is not worth it however.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:

    Undocumented citizenry is a pretty big problem. Is there any way that an undocumented citizen is going to directly pay any taxes....other than sales?

    They pay about $11 billion a year in state and local taxes.  They also pay federal income taxes.


    I don't blame the Mexicans for seeking better opportunities. However...it is my understanding that it is pretty easy to do things legally.
    That's the problem - it is next to impossible currently.  Unless you are brought in by a visa sponsored by a US citizen, or have a valuable skill (i.e. you are an Olympic caliber athlete or a noted physicist) you are basically not getting in legally.  Change that, and you wouldn't need the wall - no one would have an incentive to come in illegally.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:

    Undocumented citizenry is a pretty big problem. Is there any way that an undocumented citizen is going to directly pay any taxes....other than sales?

    They pay about $11 billion a year in state and local taxes.  They also pay federal income taxes.


    I don't blame the Mexicans for seeking better opportunities. However...it is my understanding that it is pretty easy to do things legally.
    That's the problem - it is next to impossible currently.  Unless you are brought in by a visa sponsored by a US citizen, or have a valuable skill (i.e. you are an Olympic caliber athlete or a noted physicist) you are basically not getting in legally.  Change that, and you wouldn't need the wall - no one would have an incentive to come in illegally.
    I'm not an expert but paying state and federal taxes means they are documented...in my book anyway. Pretty sure we have different definitions.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:
    I'm not an expert but paying state and federal taxes means they are documented...in my book anyway. Pretty sure we have different definitions.
    Anyone - documented or not - can pay income taxes by filing for an ITIN (Individual Tax Identification Number) and then using that when they file their taxes.  3 million people did that last year.  And even if you don't file, federal taxes are often withheld from paychecks - you just don't get any of that back if you don't file.
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:
    I'm not an expert but paying state and federal taxes means they are documented...in my book anyway. Pretty sure we have different definitions.
      And even if you don't file, federal taxes are often withheld from paychecks - you just don't get any of that back if you don't file.
    Exactly, They don't get any of it back. That can add up to a LOT of money left in the Federal and state coffers.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9 #42
    Exactly, They don't get any of it back. That can add up to a LOT of money left in the Federal and state coffers.
    Except for the part that gets paid out for medical, food and housing for the anchor babies.  Kid is a citizen and can't be deported, so to protect the kid, have to provide food housing medical and school.   I grew up in Los Angeles, went to a mostly brown high school and will state absolutely first hand, more is consumed than paid in taxes.
    Half to 3/4 of those "wages" are off the books, cash per day for labor, and half that cash is mailed south of the border via US postal money order, to the rest of the family that's not here yet.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/andyjsemotiuk/2016/10/05/the-citizenship-and-immigration-problems-of-anchor-babies-and-surrogacy/


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  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    Exactly, They don't get any of it back. That can add up to a LOT of money left in the Federal and state coffers.
    Except for the part that gets paid out for medical, food and housing for the anchor babies.  Kid is a citizen and can't be deported, so to protect the kid, have to provide food housing medical and school.   I grew up in Los Angeles, went to a mostly brown high school and will state absolutely first hand, more is consumed than paid in taxes.
    Half to 3/4 of those "wages" are off the books, cash per day for labor, and half that cash is mailed south of the border via US postal money order, to the rest of the family that's not here yet.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/andyjsemotiuk/2016/10/05/the-citizenship-and-immigration-problems-of-anchor-babies-and-surrogacy/



     All true for many cases. I grew up in los Angeles and attended the same mostly brown school. I have to say that there many brown families that want nothing more than the American dream, a better life for their children and to assimilate into our society. There is rampant abuse of our system by many. The system is set up in such a way that abuse is easy and there are people who actually make a living by showing others how to abuse the system, while probably abusing it themselves. The solution, IMHO, lies with the agencies doling out all these services fixing the loopholes allowing the abuse to begin with.  Painfully obvious  but apparently there's no will with the powers that be to fix the problem.
     My point was strictly regarding the taxes paid that the state and fed never have to return. I wonder if these numbers are known and available.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9 #44
    And then add in the people who are committing fraud and with social security cards/Id's getting benefits. The State Senate President Pro Tem Kevin De Léon said that “half his family would be eligible for deportation ... if they got a false green card, and anyone who has family members, ... those who possess fraudulent documents or committed identity theft to get Social Security 

    My county does not want to be a sanctuary city/county,  and yet the state has a bill now to make us all a sanctuary state.  We are so screwed!

    If we went to a consumption tax only,  at least the fraud and criminal element (Gangs) would pay when they buy goods.

    That will never happen though... Yep, more pain and comedy will be coming!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭
    If we went to a consumption tax only,  at least the fraud and criminal element (Gangs) would pay when they buy goods.
    If we went to a consumption tax only, the gangs would be the only ones NOT paying taxes; they already have control of the black market for heavily taxed goods (liquor, cigarettes etc.)  The US loses $5 billion a year to gang sales of cigarettes alone.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9 #46
    That does not make sense. You are saying gang members do not buy goods? You think gang members pay taxes now?

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭✭
    And then add in the people who are committing fraud and with social security cards/Id's getting benefits. The State Senate President Pro Tem Kevin De Léon said that “half his family would be eligible for deportation ... if they got a false green card, and anyone who has family members, ... those who possess fraudulent documents or committed identity theft to get Social Security 

    My county does not want to be a sanctuary city/county,  and yet the state has a bill now to make us all a sanctuary state.  We are so screwed!

    If we went to a consumption tax only,  at least the fraud and criminal element (Gangs) would pay when they buy goods.

    That will never happen though... Yep, more pain and comedy will be coming!
    Sorry man....California is toast financially. When you retire state troopers at $150,000/year at 55,....
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭✭
    I know you are right softdown !  We have been broke for decades, but still have a decent business economy from Tech.
     I am happy that I do not have a stake in the current government here. It could all go south and I would leave everything and move in with you :) 
    It probably will be an earthquake that solves our dilemma.  I always tell Bill that he can dock on either side of the house if it is a big flood.
    We do have the weather, for now.............................
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭✭
    edited February 10 #49
    The state of Arizona reports that they have spent an extra $15 Billion on medical, education & incarceration for illegal aliens in just the past 5 years. Their portion of the wall would cost about $5 Billion, saving them $10 Billion.
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭
    That does not make sense. You are saying gang members do not buy goods? You think gang members pay taxes now?

    Gang members do buy goods.  When taxes on goods are high (as they are on cigarettes and liquor) they find ways to avoid paying the taxes.  There is no reason to believe this will change.

    A consumption tax might well work for other reasons (like simplification of the tax code.)  But the criminal elements will continue what they are doing now - which is finding ways to avoid them.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭✭
    The only way around the Goos & Services type Taxes (GST)  is to use cold hard cash under the table and both buyer and seller have to agree...  Up here the biggest  Tax Avoidance is in the delivery of services (Labour) where the bill is for less hrs than actually worked and you cover the rest with cash... or no records No Tax Paid...
     
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  • JohannJohann Solar Expert Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
    Johann said:

    The US could handle 5,000 illegal folks in 45 years. It is estimated that 10 millions are illegal in the US and that is a problem.
    A $60 billion one-time expense for the wall is much cheaper than spending $150 billion every year for illegals.

     
    OK so let's say we do all that, and spend the billions a year to keep all those people out.   (For all the staffing in the guard towers, the dog training, maintenance, towns for the workers etc etc.) If the fence is just as effective as the Berlin fence, then it would allow 165,000 people through, since it would be 33 times longer.

    Now you have an extra, say $10 billion in expenses a year (not counting the cost of building the wall) and you've lost the $10 billion or so that illegal immigrants pay in taxes.  And the $150 billion or so that they contribute to the economy through their spending.  And US farmers become uncompetitive with Mexican farmers due to loss of cheap labor.

    Who pays for all that?

    I'd much rather take all that money, build a superconducting HVDC grid and employ the thousands of people it would take to build it.  When you're done, you have a superconducting grid to benefit the public, instead of a wall that (like all walls) will just be torn down.
    It cost the US taxpayers $150 billion a year to keep illegals up......nothing to do with the economy. That means that the taxpayers have to pay extra taxes to support the illegals, while taxpayers getting the shaft.
    So yes, a wall and system to control the border is way cheaper than a $150 billion yearly expense to keep illegals here. At least  legal current citizens would get the benefits by getting more from programs.
    Why do you thing they are cutting retirement amounts back or the medicare/medicaid back ? To many come in here that never worked, but yet they are old enough to get retirement....and the same is true for medicare/medicaid where they come in here and filing claims for family and children that never worked.
    Illegals that committed a federal crime by coming here illegally or staying here illegally getting rewarded with an shelter, food and medical help, while thousands of legal American citizen are forced to stay on the streets with their kids and are not able to get any help.
    Help your legal fellow citizen first, before you help anyone else, but noooooo, foreigners come first and it does not matter that Americans and their children  are forced to stay on the streets hungry and without shelter and no healthcare.....what the heck...................?


  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11 #53

    Just some humor
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • HorseflyHorsefly Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭✭
    Johann said:
    It cost the US taxpayers $150 billion a year to keep illegals up......nothing to do with the economy.

    Where exactly did you get the $150B/year? I've not seen any estimate that high. Trump has been saying $113B/year, and that has been discredited, at least partially. (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/01/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-illegal-immigration-costs-113-bi/ )

    I"m not arguing with you. It's obvious lots of people here are lots more passionate about this subject than I am.
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 4 x Vmax XTR12-155 12V, 155AH batteries in a 2x2 24V 310AH bank.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭✭
    mcgivor said:

    Just some humor
    Heh....fair enough. Trump is going to rock the boat. Things will either get better or worse. I think things are bad enough to warrant "throwing deep"? Keep in mind that I have been sounding the alarm since 2002 or so. I knew that Bush & Co were global wrecking balls and I was a stalwart Republican before conclusions are jumped to.

    I studied a lot of economics. I think we are toast. Unless Trump connects with with some Hail Mary type passes. I think we need Brady throwing deep right now.

    I see storm fronts in every direction. Call me an a pessimist.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 150 watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭
    We just don,t have any jobs in western pa. They already went to mexico or china. That is why Pa. has a high percentage of elderly residents. A lot of us lost our jobs in our late 50,s or early 60,s and just had to retire as we couldn,t find jobs. Most of the young people have to move somewhere else or another state to get a job. In my area a Mexican is as scarce as hens teeth because there isn,t any jobs for the people still here.  What we have is lots of Amish. And some of the elderly people that can,t get their social security are scratching with the chickens and haul Amish the people and their horses. Most of the amish do carpenter work, do truck gardening or do log cutting and run sawmills. So we don,t want any or need any Mexicans. THIS IS TRUMP COUNTRY NOW AND MOST OF US THINK HE IS DOING A GOOD JOB. I think every illegal alien should be deported and if they come back we could put them in a couple prisons that are getting shut down by governor. Send the bill to mexaco  I do not feel that we should let Mexicans in to get a better life when we already have AMERICAN CITIZENS That need the opportunity to make wages and pay taxes.
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