Morningstarr mppt charger ?

bc buckbc buck Posts: 51Registered Users ✭✭

Morningstar TriStar 45 Amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller   The heat sink dissipates the energy the PV send the CC in the form of heat once the battery are fully charged,is what I was told. Heat is a concern where my cc would be mounted during summer months.

Morningstar PS-MPPT-40 ProStar MPPT 40 Amp Solar Charge Controller   This CC does not have the heat sink. How does it handle power once battery's are at full charge?




Comments

  • vtmapsvtmaps Posts: 3,738Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Controllers do not need to dissipate solar energy when the battery is full.  The controller becomes less of a load and the solar panel voltage approaches Voc.  In that case the energy that could potentially be harvested is dissipated in the solar panel, not the controller.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • bc buckbc buck Posts: 51Registered Users ✭✭
    vtmaps said:
    Controllers do not need to dissipate solar energy when the battery is full.  The controller becomes less of a load and the solar panel voltage approaches Voc.  In that case the energy that could potentially be harvested is dissipated in the solar panel, not the controller.

    --vtMaps
    That is what I was told from a sales rep about heat sinks. Do you have any idea why some CC have big heat sinks and others with about same rating dont appear to have any.
     Also do you see any advantage difference between these two controllers other than 5a difference?
  • vtmapsvtmaps Posts: 3,738Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    bc buck said:
    Do you have any idea why some CC have big heat sinks and others with about same rating dont appear to have any.
    I am not familiar with the two controllers you mention.

    MPPT charge controllers are not 100% efficient... they make heat.   The greater the drop in voltage between the PV and the battery, the more heat they make.  I notice that the one with the big heat sink can handle higher input voltages... maybe that's why it has the big heat sink.  Or maybe the one without a heat sink has a fan?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • VicVic Posts: 2,878Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭

    Hi bc buck,

    First,  what batteries are you using on this system  --  manufacturer and model number,  please?

    What is the temperature compensation required for these batteries?

    In the manual for the MPPT 40 CC,  there is mention of maximum output current being changed,  based on its heatsink temperature.   The heatsink must be inside the plastic enclosure.

    Is there some reason that you seem interested only in Morningstar CCs?   Just curious.

    Most Morningstar CCs use those medieval DIP switches,  and have no LCD display as standard equipment.   This seems quite dated,  to many (like me),  and seems quite stingy for a relatively expensive CC.

    Thanks,    Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • bc buckbc buck Posts: 51Registered Users ✭✭
    Vic said:

    Hi bc buck,

    First,  what batteries are you using on this system  --  manufacturer and model number,  please?

    What is the temperature compensation required for these batteries?

    In the manual for the MPPT 40 CC,  there is mention of maximum output current being changed,  based on its heatsink temperature.   The heatsink must be inside the plastic enclosure.

    Is there some reason that you seem interested only in Morningstar CCs?   Just curious.

    Most Morningstar CCs use those medieval DIP switches,  and have no LCD display as standard equipment.   This seems quite dated,  to many (like me),  and seems quite stingy for a relatively expensive CC.

    Thanks,    Vic

    Thanks Vic
      My battery bank is two Trojan SCS225 parellel,so my AH is 260 at 12v.
    (What is the temperature compensation required for these batteries?)-----Ambiantbattery temp -4to105F
    (Is there some reason that you seem interested only in Morningstar CCs?   Just curious.)-----The reason im looking at Morningstar is they had the highest ambient temp rating at +60C. The trailer where this will be mounted can reach 120F when im not there. Also dont want a CC that puts off excessive heat with three 12v 150w PV.
  • VicVic Posts: 2,878Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2016 #7

    Hi bc buck,

    Thanks for the info.   Looked at the battery spec,  and the required Temp Compensation value,  is -- 5 mV/Cell/C.  This is good,  as the Morningstar CCs appear to have the compensation value of ONLY  -- 5 mV/C.

    Just looked at the spec for the TS MPPT 45 CC,  and the maximum Ambient temp rating appears to be 45 C:
    http://www.morningstarcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/TSMPPTdsEng.pdf

    Will look at the spec for that 40 A CC in a while,  but between the two,  would suggest that the 45 A CC may well be better,  perhaps,  in high ambient temps,  due to the external heatsink.

    EDIT:  The 40 A CC does spec a max ambient temp of 60 C,  but the data sheet does not note any Thermal derating of the output current for either of these two CCs.   This is a common thing for CCs  --  Limiting of output current depending upon ambient temps  --   so check the manual of each CC,  or ask Morningstar about this,  as you seem to be hanging your hat on high temp operation.

    Whatever CC you wind up using,  be certain to get the Battery Temperature Sensor (BTS/RTS).   As you know,  batteries do not like high temperatures,  at all.

    More later,  Thanks,   Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,642Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    if you have 12V PV panels, you can run them in parallel and use a PWM controller, needing little heat sinking,  If you run them in series to reduce voltage drop on a long DC run, you need to use MPPT to transform the 36V array voltage to the 15V for battery charging at the highest efficiency.
    The 45A tristar has no meter, just a blinky LED.  The 60A tristar has a web server internally and can interface to a computer or wireless router and you can remotely view it's status.   I don't have any experience with the prostar
    450W of PV @ 55V is not going to do much to the heat sink.   I run 3Kw at 120VDC into my TS 60A and it gets warm but not into the thermal limiting area. 
    if your "efficiency" ran at 85% of 450W,  that would be 70W into the heatsink,  I think there would me much less, maybe 40 loss into the heatsink
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • WaterWheelWaterWheel Posts: 252Registered Users ✭✭✭
    I've been using the 45 amp version for the last 5 years on a smaller 490 watt 12v  system.       It's worked well for me and the included temp probe allows it to protect the batteries on those hot summer days.      While I don't have one you can install the optional face plate display.

    Conext XW6848 with PDP, SCP, 80/600 controller, and conext battery monitor

    18 SW280 panels on Schletter ground mount

    48v 790 amp/hr Crown battery bank

  • VicVic Posts: 2,878Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    if you have 12V PV panels, you can run them in parallel and use a PWM controller, needing little heat sinking,  If you run them in series to reduce voltage drop on a long DC run, you need to use MPPT to transform the 36V array voltage to the 15V for battery charging at the highest efficiency.
    The 45A tristar has no meter, just a blinky LED.  The 60A tristar has a web server internally and can interface to a computer or wireless router and you can remotely view it's status.   I don't have any experience with the prostar
    450W of PV @ 55V is not going to do much to the heat sink.   I run 3Kw at 120VDC into my TS 60A and it gets warm but not into the thermal limiting area. 
    if your "efficiency" ran at 85% of 450W,  that would be 70W into the heatsink,  I think there would me much less, maybe 40 loss into the heatsink


    Good points,  mike..,

    IIRC,  this is part of how we have gotten here:
    http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/350842/does-my-solar-electric-system-design-look-ok#latest

    FWIW,   Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • MStar1MStar1 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    edited September 2016 #11
    The ProStar MPPT Heatsink is on the back of the controller instead of the front. The heat sink is designed with passive cooling so it has no fans. High efficiency also makes it run cooler as efficiency losses result in heat. During voltage regulation the current and power is reduced so it will operate closer to Voc rather than diversion to a dump load.  
    It is rated to 60C full output for 24V systems. There is some derating with 12V systems at high temps based on input voltages as indicated on page 74 of the manual. Please note that the graphs are only in regards to 12V systems. Unless you have a Vmp > 80V it will not derate below 40C. The lower the array voltage is the less it will derate since it is more efficient at lower voltages. 
    The PS-MPPT meter model includes a new graphic meter with custom settings capability. Otherwise the RM-1 is a basic digital display for monitoring only.
    DIP Switches provide options for presets for plug and play capability or custom settings and other options.
    Our UMC-1 USB to Meterbus adapter can be used to connect to a laptop with Windows to program custom settings also.
    Custom settings include temp. comp. adjustment capability.
    The RTS remote temp sensor can provide more accurate measurement of the battery temp at the battery than the built-in temp sensor for the PS-MPPT. You would need to purchase the RTS separately. The TS-MPPT includes an RTS but the TS (PWM) does not. Also, one of the TriStar controllers include internal temp sense so the RTS should always be used with any TriStar set up for charging control. The only exception might be for temp. controlled indoor environments or if you don't want any temp. comp such as for lithium batteries.
    PWM controllers work just as well as MPPT controllers at keeping batteries fully charged. However, there is more MPPT boost in colder environments when the array voltage gets higher and also when the battery voltage gets low which are two critical times to achieve better charging. With large enough systems you might get enough added charging capability to make it worth the price of an MPPT controller.
    MPPT also allows for higher voltage strings which can save on wire sizing, combiner costs and using any type of module you want.


    -MStar Applications EE

  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,432Super Moderators admin
    Member MStar1 is with Morningstar Corp (via registration email address)--And there is a new (to me) Prostar MPPT family:

    https://www.solar-electric.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=prostar+mppt
    http://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/prostar-mppt/

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • jonrjonr Posts: 949Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Note that MPPT and voltage/current conversion (a DC-DC buck converter) are technically separate things.   It is possible to have either one and not the other.
  • MStar1MStar1 Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    jonr said:
    Note that MPPT and voltage/current conversion (a DC-DC buck converter) are technically separate things.   It is possible to have either one and not the other.
    DC-DC converters can be either buck or boost converters. Buck converters convert from a higher voltage to a lower voltage. Boost covertes the voltage to a higher voltage. Almost all MPPT controllers include only buck conversion which transforms the higher PV voltages to lower battery DC voltages. The MPPT tracking decides on which input voltage results in the greatest power that is harvested at any given time. There are variations to how mdifferent MPPT controllers will track the voltage but they will all result in a DC-DC power buck conversion from a higher input PV DC voltage to a lower output battery DC voltage.

    -MStar Applications EE

  • fratermusfratermus Posts: 20Registered Users ✭✭
    MStar1 said:
    Almost all MPPT controllers include only buck conversion which transforms the higher PV voltages to lower battery DC voltages.
    ...
     they will all result in a DC-DC power buck conversion from a higher input PV DC voltage to a lower output battery DC voltage.
    One of these statements must be false.  Pretty sure it's the second one since boosting MPPT controllers do exist.


    2017 Promaster 159" DIY camper
    570W mono / 220AH GC
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,310Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    The second statement is also true to the extent "they" refers to buck converting mppt controllers, which the first statement refers to with the (correct) qualifier of "almost all mppt ..."

    There was a supplier of boost controllers (and some other interesting stuff) on our hosts' site, but apparently they're out of business and our hosts apparently have yet to find a replacement vendor.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 914Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23 #17
    Odd that the host doesn't carry Genasun boost controllers. Here's the Genasun site, hope it's ok to post.
    https://genasun.com/all-products/solar-charge-controllers/for-lead/gvb-8a-pb-wp-solar-golf-cart-boost/

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,432Super Moderators admin
    Genasun does make boost type solar charge controllers for smaller systems:

    https://genasun.com/products-store/mppt-solar-charge-controllers/

    I have not seen any others at this time.

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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