Looking for Combo Washer+Dryer for off grid RV use

BB.BB. Posts: 27,914Super Moderators, Administrators admin
This discussion was created from comments split from: Operating my washing machine off solar..
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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Comments

  • shaunshaun Posts: 15Registered Users
    Hi, I have 1500w of solar & 1500 AMPs of lithium battery on my RV. We have a compact washer dryer combo a Splendide 2100XC, it wont work of the Magnum Pure Sine Wave Hybrid 3000w inverter, Splendide tech also confirms that it cant. CAN anyone suggest / recommend a compact washer dryer combo (vented or ventless) that can run of an inverter ?
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,914Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    Sorry to hear that Shaun. And welcome to the forum.

    Just out of curiosity--How the the water/dryer fail? What is the mfg. reasoning that it will not work?

    In general, a 3 kW PSW inverter should run just about any household 120 VAC appliance without problem.

    Regarding the battery bank, is that 1,500 AH (Amp*Hour) of battery bank. And at what voltage (24 volt)?

    If your inverter output is sagging and/or shutting down at times, it is possible that you may have some DC wiring issues between the inverter and the battery bank (too small of cabling, poor connection, etc.). A 3kWatt surge is around 150 Amps @ 24 VDC.

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,709Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭

    11 amps at 120 volts, should not be a problem. What did the 'Tech' say the problem was?

    What is your battery configuration, voltage/strings...

    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • scrubjaysnestscrubjaysnest Posts: 174Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    With these specs per the manual:
    Voltage: 120 Volts, 10.5 Amp, 60 Hz
    Max. Absorbed Power: 1300 W

    something sure doesn't add up here, unless there are some kind of wiring issues. What other l;oads may be on at the same time?

  • shaunshaun Posts: 15Registered Users
    Hi All

    Thanks for your comments and we agree it does not make any sense. To answer your comments :

    1. Splendide technical service states that the machine sees the pure sine wave as dirty power 
    2. The lithium setup 1,500 amps per hour / 12 v
    3. No other loads at the same time was applied
    4. All wiring has been checked and all OK under high amp loads, microwave, oven, iron etc
    5. We have also contacted Dometic who also states that their combo wont work of an inverter

    Q:
    Is there some kind of filter / resister we could connect  to fool it into thinking its clean acceptable power
    Does anyone actually have a combo dryer working of an inverter, if yes, which model etc 

    Thanks

  • vtmapsvtmaps Posts: 3,738Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    shaun said:
    Splendide technical service states that the machine sees the pure sine wave as dirty power
    Sounds like nonsense to me.  Many inverters provide purer sine waves than the grid.  Of course, there are many levels of purity... not all "pure" sine waves are the same.   Also, I've seen RVs that do their laundry while running an inverter generator. 

    What model Magnim inverter do you have?  Are you able to run other large loads (microwave, vacuum, power tools, etc)?  I do suspect battery or cable issues.  When you say it won't work, what exactly do you mean?  Does the inverter throw a fault code?  Does the washer just fail to run at all?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • zonebluezoneblue Posts: 1,218Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    I suggest running the machine on the grid using a killawatt to see what kind of load it typically draws. You can estimate the surge requirement from that , but a 3kW inverter should not have issues with a washer. The dryer component is another matter. Also some washers run on hot more will try to heat water, particuarly the european front loaders.

    For start surge issues, always try an 25m extention cord to see if that helps.

    >1500w of solar & 1500Ah of lithium battery, 12V

    Can you post a photo of your bank? Must be quite impressive.



    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,921Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    zoneblue said:  ......
    Can you post a photo of your bank? Must be quite impressive......

    Couldn't resist   !  Petaluma,  California     converted historic bank building.

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 1,036Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Quite impressive indeed.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • shaunshaun Posts: 15Registered Users
    Hi All,

    its a Magnum MSH3012M , the inverter, cables, connections are  not the issue, as all can technically handle any electrical demand of a washer dryer , so it does not produce any fault codes, but simply the splendide or Dometic are  not designed to and wont run from any inverter. The splendide board sees the sine wave as dirty and tells components to shut down with the drum only managing to do half of a rotation etc , I have read of others saying that a washer dryer can be used with an inverter and I would like to know which make / model so I can purchase  to replace the current splendide.

    I dont know how to post a picture of the battery bank ?





  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,914Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    In general, a 3,000 Watt inverter at 12 volts requires very heavy and short DC wiring from the battery bank to the AC inverter DC input.

    3,000 Watts * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1/10.5 inverter cutoff voltage = 336 Amps at rated power
    336 Amps * 1.25 NEC wiring and fuse/breaker derating = 420 Amp rated 12 VDC branch circuit minimum

    As you can see, you have to have a very good wiring run (and cell interconnects) from the battery bank to the Inverter.

    Of course, you are running about 1/3 that amount of power for the washer-dryer, but you can (for example) take an electric room heater (around 1,000 to 1,500 Watts), plug it into the inverter and power it up. Does the inverter support the load? Check the DC input to the inverter and see what it reads. Most inverters will cutoff around 10.5 Volts (if not set to something else).

    A "TSW" inverter is usually defind as a 95% or better sine wave. Which is the same rating as what you get from the wall outlet (aka 5% or less distortion).

    My own suggestion is that on a 12 volt system, somewhere around 1,200 to 2,000 Watt maximum inverter before the wiring and fusing/breakers just become too large to work with and handle the current. For a 3kW inverter, a 24 or possibly even 48 VDC battery bank is certainly justifiable.

    The other experiment somebody suggested was to take a 50-100' typical extension cord and plug it into the washer/dryer. The extra resistance in the cord can sometimes cut down the very short current spikes (motor starting current) that will sometimes cause an inverter to shut down for a fraction of a second.

    A 1,500 AH Li Ion battery bank--Just has people drooling. LiFePO4 batteries are getting close to something that off grid folks can afford and justify for their installations. People are curious as to your installation.

    Also, the NEC tables would suggest around 600 circular mill cable--Which is almost 1" in diameter of stranded copper--Would be sort of surprised if that was how your inverter was wired... Or did you use multiple parallel runs of 1/0 or similar cables?

    High current installations at low voltage DC are really difficult installations to perfect.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BrockBrock Posts: 630Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    edited February 2016 #13
    I would agree with Bill, as usual.  I think even if the inverter isn't throwing any codes or givng you any errors and the loads start and stop the voltage could be fluctuation enough to cause the splendide to think there is a problem.  Say it starts at 118vac and the splendide starts to try to spin the motor and the inverter sags for a few milliseconds to 112v, not enough for the inverter to think there is a problem but enough for the splendide to think something is wrong with the power supply.  

    I would also guess the feed cables to the inverter are to long or to small in capacity, again not for regular loads or maybe even restive loads like a heater, but motor starting is typically one of the biggest loads an inverter will ever see. 

    If you can put a good meter, right at the input connection points on the inverter and watch that as the splendide tries to start, then do the same thing on the output side of the inverter, I would be willing to bet you will see a drop, again not enough to cause a fault on the inverter, but enough for the splendide to fault.  It's not a sine wave issue.

    And it could be the splendide is just to darn picky on input voltage tolerances, but the better feed wires you can get to your inverter the happier you inverter will be in the long run as well. 
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,021Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2016 #14

    mike95490 said:
    zoneblue said:  ......
    Can you post a photo of your bank? Must be quite impressive......

    Couldn't resist   !  Petaluma,  California     converted historic bank building.

    Good old Petaluma, when did they convert this Mike? Or have I blindly driven by there?
    Our Library in town has a locked section that just stores heirlooms and reseeds yearly. Trying to keep Monsanto at bay!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • zonebluezoneblue Posts: 1,218Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Lithium allows rightly or wrongly a lot of rules that we use here to be bent, and broke. Charge rate and discharge rates chief among them. As bill said 1000W inverter is about all that a 12V lead bank can reasonably support. The 3000W inverter assuming up to spec cables, protection and termination /could/ work on a 12V lithium bank. But that doestn mean that magnum and others arent daft for even making such an inverter. Its like the garden shops that sell watermelon seedlings in winter (if people are keen enough to buy them, they keep making them).

    Im with the others, it less likley to be a waveform problem. Ever studied the grid waveform up close? It too can be pretty [email protected] at times.



    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,709Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    1. Splendide technical service states that the machine sees the pure sine wave as dirty power 
    2. The lithium setup 1,500 amps per hour / 12 v
    3. No other loads at the same time was applied
    4. All wiring has been checked and all OK under high amp loads, microwave, oven, iron etc
    5. We have also contacted Dometic who also states that their combo wont work of an inverter

    So we haven't defined what happens when you try to run your washer/drier. Does it not try to run? have you tried an extension cord from the grid? 

    Please listen to the people here! Read and understand BB's post!

    1. Is silly, most pure sine waves from quality manufacturers produce better cleaner power than the grid. I promise you this is true. If a Tech told me this I would quit listening to them! Period! They don't know enough about your situation to help you.

    2. Voltage of lithium iron phosphate battery is 3.2 volts, Lithium/Phosphate is capable of producing current at near this voltage for @80% Depth of Discharge. This is from what education I have gleaned from the Lithium crowd. There should NOT be a problem from voltage drop due to the battery! I will assume this is correctly rated 1500amp at 12 volt is still a very good sized battery weighing @350 lbs and actually 13 volts nominal.

    Note; lots of reasons NOT to have this high a capacity in a 12 volt bank. I'll get there shortly.

    3. Great best way to test a given situation.

    4. Hum, "checked" and "all OK" are not defined, many appliances will be fine with a variety of currents and voltages. This is your likely problem in my opinion.

    5. More crap! perhaps they mis-spoke and should have said modified sine wave inverters. There are inverters that run huge households. You can find bad inverters, but a good inverter will work just fine anything designed to plug into a househole outlet. There are huge battery banks and inverters that provide seamless power to sensitive computer banks.

    So, I'll suggest it is a wiring problem, If you assume the camper was designed for a 15 or 20 amp circuit to the Washer Dryer. Then the wiring from your battery bank to the inverter is too small. The length of cable from your battery to the inverter is likely the problem. I suspect that the demand on the inverter with undersized cabling is creating voltage fluctuations. This is not the problem of the inverter but a problem of voltage sag on under sized cabling. The inverter in trying to deliver steady current sees much higher voltage when there is minimal demand, then lower voltage when trying to push too much current for the wire when there is a high demand.

    Magnum recommends 4/0 for up to a 5 foot run, and 2 each 4/0's for up to a 10 foot run(I wouldn't recommend 2 wires arriving at the same place from the same place.) http://pdf.wholesalesolar.com/inverter pdf folder/MSH4024M-User-Manual.pdf?_ga=1.18776313.1760799724.1454822746

    This is a picture of 2/0 1/0 and some smaller cables... You need a cable with 2x the copper of the largest here for the minimal distance!

    The washer should be fine, I can't imagine the minimal voltage fluctuations to shut down the washer. Well I have to cut this a little short, you see my front loading washing machine, just finished washing a load off my 1800 watt inverter, while I was making toast and running the microwave...

    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • shaunshaun Posts: 15Registered Users
    Hi All, thanks for all of your great comments. The battery is under 4 feet from the inverter. The connecting cable was changed to a much larger size ,not sure what size but will check and report back to you all,thanks again
  • zonebluezoneblue Posts: 1,218Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    i still think i picture of your setup will shed some light on this. Smartphone camera, usb, drag to desktop, drag to comment post edit.
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • shaunshaun Posts: 15Registered Users
    Hi All, I will get some photos put up ASAP. The RV has factory installed from the inverter to battery 2/0 cable for the run which  is under 5 ft and all the battery cables are 2/0. Magnum recommend for the distance 4/0 or if over 5 feet 4/0 x 2, so are cables are in excess of this. 

    Photowit : what make of front loader are you using ?

  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,709Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2016 #20
    shaun said:
    Hi All, I will get some photos put up ASAP. The RV has factory installed from the inverter to battery 2/0 cable for the run which  is under 5 ft and all the battery cables are 2/0. Magnum recommend for the distance 4/0 or if over 5 feet 4/0 x 2, so are cables are in excess of this. 

    NO! 2/0 is smaller than 4/0!

     

    ...but on the small load I would be surprised the washer would pick up a voltage fluctuation. Does the Washer heat the water as well? I would assume a gas water heater, but lets cover all the bases. You still haven't told us how it fails. Does the washer fail to function? Does the inverter kick out? does it start fill the tank and then fail? Has it been tried on an extension cord or shore power?

    Depending on the way it fails and the testing on shore power we can eliminate some possibilities. Works on shore power eliminates there being a lock on the drum that wasn't removed when installed. If it fills and fails, then it's ha to do with the load surge, possibly with an added hot water heating if not gas. This might top out your inverter, 110 water heaters running 1500-1800 watts.

    It's a 15-20 year old Maytag (I think) with minimal intelligence (LOL) I can run it with my 900 watts of water heater running (3600watt 240v running on 120). So I would bet it would run on a 1000 watt inverter, since my inverter has a low surge.

    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • zonebluezoneblue Posts: 1,218Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2016 #21
    4/0 would be the minimum youd want for 12V 3kW. Youd also want a top of the line breaker for this, settle for nothing less than a F series carling. I estimate the short circuit current of that bank to be somewhere in the vicinity of 28000 Amps. The F series interrupt capacity is 50kA, most other stuff is only 10kA (or even less). Any battery is a thing to be treated mindfully, but 1500Ah LFP has lets say enhanced potential to do bad things.
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,921Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    This "should" work.   Now to find out why not.  
    Verify the actual model # on the inverter, use a mirror, take a photo of the label, whatever. Possibly the sales droid said pure and installed mod thinking you won't know the difference.
    What are the battery interconnects (from cell to cell)? If they are too small/thin, the 4/O cables won't matter if the amps are choked off someplace before the  big cables. 
    Who built the battery bank, RV dealer, Bubbas motorcycle shop?  teen kid in a garage ?
    Who crimped the connectors on the cables - 4/O requires a >$100 hydraulic crimper, and the lugs should be tin plated copper.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • CRL3512CRL3512 Posts: 5Registered Users ✭✭
    edited February 2016 #23

    This is very interesting. I tried to run our Splendide 2100XC washing machine on our Onan 12.5 k generator the other day and it acted just like described in the early post. I was told it had something to do with bonding/grounding between the two panels or in the transfer switch in the RV.

    This is in a Monaco coach; I did not try to run it on the inverter.

     Xantrex RV3012M 3000W inverter, 1350 Ah batteries, 960 w solar, Midnight classic 150 controller.

    I will be following this post closely.

  • zonebluezoneblue Posts: 1,218Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    We occasionally on the forum if my memory serves correct have come across the odd appliance like this that has odd grounding arrangements. Id be taking a good look over the RV's grounding. Both on shore and off. Is it when unhooked that the issues arise?
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • CRL3512CRL3512 Posts: 5Registered Users ✭✭
    Yes disconnected from pedestal. Only when I tried to use it with the 12.5 generator power, the washing machine will not run correctly, everything else works fine.. connected to the pedestal the washing machine  works fine. 
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,914Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    The typical grounding issue for RVs is that Neutral+Green wire safety ground are tied at the pedestal (normal residential power).

    For an RV, they cannot have the greenwire+neutral bonded together in the RV, unless somebody went to the trouble of an AC Transfer switch and would bond ground+neutral for generator and/or AC inverter operation.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Iceni JohnIceni John Posts: 102Solar Expert ✭✭

    I'm also curious about this  -  I just bought a lightly-used Splendide 2000 washer/dryer that the previous owner used to run off his RV's inverter.   I wonder if it will run off my Magnum MS2000 inverter after I get eight golfcart batteries for my house banks?   I've used 4/0 cable to the inverter with a 250A fuse, and the batteries are literally inches away from it (but in a separate compartment).   We'll see.   The Splendide is rated as 12.8 amps, but that doesn't tell me much  -  I'll use my new clamp-on ammeter that can (it says) show instantaneous loads,  and see just how much the surge current is.

    John

    40' Crown bus with 2kW of panels on the roof:

    Eight tiltable Sharp 255W, two Morningstar TS-MPPT-60, Magnum MS2000, Champion C46540 generator converted to propane, eight golfcart batteries eventually, and maybe a smaller inverter for the fridger.

    Southern California

  • vtmapsvtmaps Posts: 3,738Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭

    The Splendide is rated as 12.8 amps, but that doesn't tell me much  -  I'll use my new clamp-on ammeter that can (it says) show instantaneous loads,  and see just how much the surge current is.

    It will be interesting to know what the surge is, but I doubt it is the problem... If forum member 'CRL3512' couldn't run the washer with a 12.5 kw generator, then surge is not the issue.  I think 'zoneblue' and 'BB' are onto the real issue... grounding.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    edited February 2016 #29
    The first place I'd look is the neutral buss from the inverter and make sure that receptacle is isolated from the shore power / generator neutral buss. As was mentioned the inverter should throw a fault, but it will clear by it's self once the washer cut's off. Same with the grounds, if they are all tied together, the neutral can run back to the other buss.

    The Magnum MSH3012M being UL458 lifts the neutral / ground when on shore power and makes it when inverting. 

    There are a lot of hits on google about this issue, here is one.

     http://mvvikingstar.blogspot.com/2013/03/summery-and-conclusion-compatibility.html

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Splendide+2000&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=Splendide+inverter



  • shaunshaun Posts: 15Registered Users

    Lithium manufacture: www.balqon.com

    Solar & battery installer www.norrisrv.com

    Solar controller manufacturer: www.blueskyenergyinc.com

    Solar panels: www. gpelectric.com

     

    Hi All,

    Above is the list of suppliers etc. I have checked the size of the cable and despite my earlier email they are below what Magnum recommend.

    Therefore my first task is to get these replaced :( 

    I am a first time RVr, retired UK citizen doing a 3 year road trip of the USA and am  never in anyone place for long, however over the next few months I will be passing through

    New Orleans, Birmingham, Nashville, St Louis, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, can anyone recommend a company or person that can change the cables and is knowledgeable enough to help with sorting out the washer dryer issue by following / testing the above suggestions as to its possible remedy

    My goal is to ship the RV & tow car back to Europe and be self sufficient  energy wise as Europe does not in the main have anything above 16AMP hookups etc

     

     

  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    edited February 2016 #31
    North of Nashville is Inverter Sales and Service. They do all the tour bus's and factory installs. Call and ask for PJ or Gary and they'll set you up so you can stop north bound on I 65 at exit # 108 Whitehouse , TN. Good chance they already know your problem. It's a really amazing place, good people.

    800-621-1271

    http://inverterservicecenter.com/

    Added : one thing I don't know how much they understand about solar and LFP batteries. If in doubt, I'd make sure they call norrisrv.com and make sure your setting are correct and anything they do does not change them. Your system is not the type just anyone can shoot from the hip with. They are a Magnum dealer and service center, but that doesn't mean much with what you have.
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