Orison “plug in battery power"

Saw this on Wired, of all places… Looks like someone is already asking some hard questions in the Kickstarter comments.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ericclifton/orison-rethink-the-power-of-energy/description

Do folks here on the list know what parts of the NEC this violates? I’m more familiar with the Canadian electrical code myself.
House: 2x SMA SI 6048 w 24x 2V DEKA Unigy II; 2x SMA SB 3000TL-US w 24x Sharp ND-H235Q2
Cabin: 1x Magnum MS4024 w 24x 2V DEKA Unigy II; 1x Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 w 6x Sharp ND-H235Q2; 1x 200 Watt Harris microhydro
Intertie: 1x SMA WB 3800; 1x Lambda GEN-600 DC Supply; 2x PSL pQube

Comments

  • t00lst00ls Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    I just did a post a few minutes ago on this same thing

    I have been all over their facebook page telling people about the reality of the situation

    you cannot just plug a gridfeed device into the wall and not inform the power company....as soon as they find out you are backfeeding without permission...they will turn off your power ...they dont have to turn it back on
  • t00lst00ls Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    on the NEC ....you cant backfeed power through a branch circuit like they are proposing.....it has to be a dedicated  circuit wired specifically for the current output

    the other thing is....this is being plugged into a 110v outlet.....you are supplying power to 1 leg of 220v which will cause problems for the other leg
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 694 ✭✭✭✭
    t00ls said:
    the other thing is....this is being plugged into a 110v outlet.....you are supplying power to 1 leg of 220v which will cause problems for the other leg
    No it won't - no more than plugging a hairdryer into a 110v outlet will.  Residential distribution systems are designed to handle imbalance in the two legs of the 240 volt feed.

    Agreed on the (non)conformance issue with this device though.  It will require a rule change before it can be reasonably used.
  • David and LauraDavid and Laura Solar Expert Posts: 139
    No it won't - no more than plugging a hairdryer into a 110v outlet will.  Residential distribution systems are designed to handle imbalance in the two legs of the 240 volt feed.

    Agreed on the (non)conformance issue with this device though.  It will require a rule change before it can be reasonably used.
    Except that they claim to be able to supply power during an outage. So if it’s feeding 120v back into one phase of a 240v household circuit, things could get a little strange.
    House: 2x SMA SI 6048 w 24x 2V DEKA Unigy II; 2x SMA SB 3000TL-US w 24x Sharp ND-H235Q2
    Cabin: 1x Magnum MS4024 w 24x 2V DEKA Unigy II; 1x Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 w 6x Sharp ND-H235Q2; 1x 200 Watt Harris microhydro
    Intertie: 1x SMA WB 3800; 1x Lambda GEN-600 DC Supply; 2x PSL pQube
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 694 ✭✭✭✭

    Except that they claim to be able to supply power during an outage. So if it’s feeding 120v back into one phase of a 240v household circuit, things could get a little strange.
    Yep.  If they are just providing outlets then no problem, but they are advertising a way to "maintain power to all your appliances."

    From the video: "In the event of a grid failure, Orison automatically trips a circuit breaker" (picture of a tripped breaker in the load center is shown here) "in milliseconds" (audio of a breaker tripping) "to ensure the power you store never leaves your home."

    From the FAQ: "When a grid failure is about to occur, Orison instantaneously takes over to maintain power to all your appliances. "
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,769 admin
    Interesting. Use a tripped breaker as your transfer switch.

    Sounds plausible. Still not sure I could get a system Listed doing this stuff.

    Wonder what the details are (change out breaker, add remote current sense, etc.)?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Mountain DonMountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 493 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016 #8
    To be truly "plug 'n' play", which is what they claim in large print, their system could not require changing of anything like breakers.  I have sent them a question through the Kickstarter site.  I'll copy the reply here when / if I receive one.
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 424 ✭✭✭✭
    It's just a 2.2 kw UPS that powers a single circuit, the one it's plugged in to, when it senses power lose. Tripping the breaker isolates the circuit.
    12 x 300W Renogy PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 195AH HI Power LiFePO4 no BMS, 4000W gen.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,828 ✭✭✭✭
    Yet they state that your whole house will be powered.. no matter what size system. up to 13.2 KwH.. and no permits needed...??

    During a power outage, it will automatically power your home or business and make sure none of your stored energy is sent back to the grid.
    Orison automatically begins working. No permits, construction, or wiring required.
    You can easily program times for charging and discharging, and seamlessly add and manage multiple Orison devices for scaled power and savings. .

    Makes me think of who is the best salesman (Schill?) this guy or Musk? They both have aspirations to be a new  Power Utility


     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Iceni JohnIceni John Solar Expert Posts: 93 ✭✭
    From the FAQ: "When a grid failure is about to occur, Orison instantaneously takes over to maintain power to all your appliances. "

    Regarding "about to occur", as compared to "has occurred":

    Exactly how does this wondrous feat occur?   ESP?   Crystal balls?   Divine intervention?   Time reversal?


    Methinks that this level of psychic prescience is wasted on mere power supplies  -  how about forecasting earthquakes, or something that will really help mankind?


    What a load of bollocks.


    John

    40' Crown bus with 2kW of panels on the roof:

    Eight tiltable Sharp 255W, two Morningstar TS-MPPT-60, Magnum MS2000, Champion C46540 generator converted to propane, eight golfcart batteries eventually, and maybe a smaller inverter for the fridger.

    Southern California

  • Mountain DonMountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 493 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016 #12
    There are updated responses on the Kickstarter site that addresses NEC.  Go here
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • David and LauraDavid and Laura Solar Expert Posts: 139
    Their responses seem to be saying a) that the regulations will change, and b) that they meet the regulations, at the same time!

    Also, my understanding is that regulatory bodies are quite conservative about “innovations” like this — would you trust software to prevent 30 amps from being sourced to a short on a 15 amp circuit?

    Finally, I don’t think “tripping a breaker” counts as a disconnecting means under the NEC, as the NEC mandates a mechanical interlock to prevent backfeeding. I also have doubts about being able to reliably trip a breaker, especially during a power outage, and unless it is a GFI breaker in the electrical panel, how can you even do that?
    House: 2x SMA SI 6048 w 24x 2V DEKA Unigy II; 2x SMA SB 3000TL-US w 24x Sharp ND-H235Q2
    Cabin: 1x Magnum MS4024 w 24x 2V DEKA Unigy II; 1x Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 w 6x Sharp ND-H235Q2; 1x 200 Watt Harris microhydro
    Intertie: 1x SMA WB 3800; 1x Lambda GEN-600 DC Supply; 2x PSL pQube
  • t00lst00ls Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    t00ls said:
    the other thing is....this is being plugged into a 110v outlet.....you are supplying power to 1 leg of 220v which will cause problems for the other leg
    No it won't - no more than plugging a hairdryer into a 110v outlet will.  Residential distribution systems are designed to handle imbalance in the two legs of the 240 volt feed.

    Agreed on the (non)conformance issue with this device though.  It will require a rule change before it can be reasonably used.
    yes....it will....a hair dryer uses power, doesnt feed back in

    think about the neutral and the neutral ground...there is where the problem starts
  • asadlarik3asadlarik3 Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
    well all the upcoming storage systems are exactly like this, check upcoming enphase AC battery system- same thing. Yes you cant power all the house from a single wall outlet but other than that it is just a UPS (Uninterruptible  power system) with integrated battery.
    This never claims to backfeed into grid.
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 694 ✭✭✭✭
    t00ls said:
    yes....it will....a hair dryer uses power, doesnt feed back in

    think about the neutral and the neutral ground...there is where the problem starts
    Then you're missing something about how AC power works.

    If you have a 1500 watt load, the load takes power from the supply.  Current flows in one direction during one half of the cycle, and in the other direction during the other half of the cycle.  All current flows between neutral and hot; none flows in the ground.

    If you have a 1500 watt source, the source provides power to the supply.  Current flows in one direction during one half of the cycle, and in the other direction during the other half of the cycle.  The relationships are opposite compared to the above case but the current magnitudes themselves are the same.  All current flows between neutral and hot; none flows in the ground.
  • t00lst00ls Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    then the wiring above isnt right.....neutral ground bonding has to occur somewhere
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 694 ✭✭✭✭
    t00ls said:
    then the wiring above isnt right.....neutral ground bonding has to occur somewhere
    Yes.  It occurs at the service entrance, as it always does.  That doesn't change.
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 694 ✭✭✭✭
     I also have doubts about being able to reliably trip a breaker, especially during a power outage, and unless it is a GFI breaker in the electrical panel, how can you even do that?
    You could try to feed 40 amps from the inverter back through the line to the grid.  Assuming that the grid is now a fairly low impedance short (might be a reasonable assumption in most areas) that would trip the breaker.  Of course, it's kind of hard on the wiring.
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