Iota Has A New High PF Charger

Mountain DonMountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 493 ✭✭✭
Model DLS-UI-27-40, a 24 volt 40 amp unit

Here's a link to their data sheet page. 

It's about $200 more than the old 27-40 model. Efficiency costs money up front. But would be nice when running off a generator. 
Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M

Comments

  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    But would be nice when running off a generator. 
    Maybe... the max inrush current is 75 amps!

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    edited December 2015 #3
    I wonder if somebody just copy and pasted the old non-PFC specifications and did not ask about the new input surge current...

    I would be surprised with a PFC based power supply having such high AC input surge current--The whole design of a PFC input stage is to make the input of the power supply look "resistive"--And not have large capacitor or inductive loads on the AC input.

    A call to Iota engineering may uncover some better information.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Mountain DonMountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 493 ✭✭✭
    I saw that large inrush number and believe it is incorrect.  Another line states the maximum running amps to be 11.5 on the new model and 19.5 on the old one.   I have sent an email to them and will post the response when I receive it.
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • Mountain DonMountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 493 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2015 #5
    Here is the word from Iota...

    "I spoke with the design engineers and verified that the specs were stated correctly and they are. The input circuit is set up differently between the two units and the inrush is higher on the PFC unit. This inrush is for a very short period of time (1/4 of an AC cycle). Most circuit breakers will have no problem with this. 
    
    The difference you see in the current stated at 108 VAC is the actual current used to generate the output. The difference between the two really stands out here. The standard DLS 27-40 can not be run on a 2000 W generator, it would overload it. The PFC unit can easily be run on this same generator. 
    
    Regards,"
    
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't know about that Don.  It seems to me that a client used a 2000i  just fine with the 40 amp 24V charger.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    The 1/2 cycle AC surge is generally from connecting the AC line (at 120 or 240 VAC peak in the cycle) to the input of an AC power section--And charging up the high voltage capacitor bank.

    A "typical" PFC power supply does not have a "naked" rectified high voltage capacitor on the AC input.

    At 108 VAC input and ~27 volt output, the average (worse case) AC input current (steady state) would be:

    27 VDC * 40 amps * 1/0.90 typical PFC charger eff * 1/0.95 typical PFC power factor * 1/108 VAC =  11.7 Amps AC input

    Nowhere near 75 Amp surge...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes to Bill and his math, I looked at the circuitry over 10 years ago on the XW that was PFC and there is not a cap there. The 2000i easily ran this old iota charger. I know iota has a regulator but my client just used the stock 40A charger.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    And a quick warning--People, as far as I know, run a 40 amp @ 12 volt non-pfc charger on the eu2000i Honda (1,600 watt max inverter generator). The above Iota is 40 amps @ ~27 volts--2x the power rating--And a non-PFC supply may be too much for the eu2000i.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    BB. said:
    And a quick warning--People, as far as I know, run a 40 amp @ 12 volt non-pfc charger on the eu2000i Honda (1,600 watt max inverter generator). The above Iota is 40 amps @ ~27 volts--2x the power rating--And a non-PFC supply may be too much for the eu2000i.

    -Bill
    I just recieved an e-mail from my friend and he ran the eu2000i (old one) with the 24V 40A iota (old one) last week with no problems. why does anyone think this is a problem? Is there past problems?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    With a "standard" non-PFC 40 Amp @ 29 volt Iota, the VA rating would be around:
    • 40 amps * 29 volts * 1/0.80 efficiency of charger * 1/0.67 typical Power Factor = 2,164 VA
    The "Best Case" (one long time poster believes/has measured and find my numbers "too pessimistic"):
    • 40 amps * 29 volts * 1/0.80 efficiency of charger * 1/0.95 typical Power Factor = 1,526 VA
    I would suggest that you don't want to run a typical Residential Genset at more than ~80% of rated output:
    • 1,600 VA (Watt) rating * 0.80 derate = 1,280 VA recommended continuous load
    So, I would suggest that a 40 amp @ ~27 volt non-PF Iota is running pretty near (or over) the capability of a Honda eu2000i genset if the batteries are significantly discharged (charger is running ~40 amp DC).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    That is your opinion, respect it but my friend has been doing this before 9/ 11.  It does note seem to be a problem. There may be more that you are not taking into your math or that the eu2000i is really more of a hardwork horse than you think.
    I know you have a test background. The math is why we test.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    Glad to hear that a eu2000i will run a non-PFC 24 volt @ 40 amp Iota charger in your experience Dave... Like I said, it appears to be close, but you would be the second person that has confirm that my math is overestimating the VA of the Iota.

    I don't have an Iota or a battery bank--So, I cannot test and want to hear from others that actually run the setup.

    Have fun,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Always have fun is a given!
      I think in the past I remember the problem was the 48V banks with a 2000i.  It just is not fun enough for me to look up......It also may be the standard iota does not come with a regulator as I said previously. That may be the answer here. Maybe we are both right without the test and measurement. 

    I am pulling in 330 watts in the rain and hunkered down so I do not need a generator.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭✭

    One of the largest factor in using the venerable Iota chargers on smaller (especially Inverter gensets) was the HUGE inrush current.  This would instantly overload the EU2000s,  and similar smallish gensets,   causing them to trip-off.


    One would expect that a NTC Thermistor of just the right resistance value would do the trick.


    Also expect that a step-start circuit would also work.


    The above is just from reading here.    FWIW     Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • Mountain DonMountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 493 ✭✭✭


    I am pulling in 330 watts in the rain and hunkered down..........
    The rain must be nice     :)     We had some snow in the mtns a few weeks ago. Now all that's left is ice on the shady north facing curves. More coming this weekend though. 
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    There have been at least a couple of forum members who have had trouble with Iota and small generators.  Here is one post that I found in a few minutes of searching:  http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/8821/question-about-battery-charger-selection-with-eu2000-generator/p1

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,486 ✭✭✭
    I did a test a few years ago to satisfy myself about what I had vs what was available. The only thing I could test was the I/O data. As was mentioned, it's the Inrush that the IOTA and Honda EU2000 has a issue with. The Honda will start a DLS-75 @ 12v, but it's been said they will not always start a DLS-27-40. IOTA has changed their circuit board a few times over the years, you cannot assume that one persons experience will be the same out come you may get with a newer charger. 

    The Meanwell PB-1000 is a smart charger with a pf> 90. Mine had issues anytime there was a load on the bank and saw it as a fault and would shut it's self down.

    Meanwell PB-1000-12

    Input 7.39 amps ac @ 120V

    Output 51.4 amps dc @12.7 v

    51.4/7.39 = 6.95 DC amp's for every 1 ac amp of input

    IOTA DLS-75

    Input 8.64 amps ac @ 120V

    Output 75.9 amps dc @12.7 v

    75.9/8.64 = 8.78 DC amp's for every 1 ac amp of input


    My conclusion is that if the Mealwell has got PF in it, it's staying in it. I'd avoid this charger like the plague, don't waste your money. The IOTA is solid as a rock and a great buy and you get 26% more amp output for every amp you put in.

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    My client/friend wrote back that he turns the iota AC on and then turns the breaker on the output to the battery.  That seems to make the 2000i happy and work well at 24v nominal.  He also said that he uses the iota at 24.5 v up to 28 on his 1,100 AH bank. Solar does the rest of the work up to 29.6v


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,486 ✭✭✭
    Dave, as simple as that sounds I never tried to disconnect the charger to the bank before powering it up. I wish someone with a Fluke clamp on meter that is capable to measure the in rush and see how it effects it.
  • nyarelathodepnyarelathodep Solar Expert Posts: 97 ✭✭
    Hey, so yea, this thread is timely for me. I've recently come to need a charger pretty badly, and have been mulling my options.  My bank is 225ah at 24v, and I was looking at the older Iota 27-40,  or the samlex 24v 40a model... I have two generators, a 5500 Briggs elite, and a Yamaha ef2000is... Would this new Iota of model allow me to charge my bank on my Yamaha? I was, up until now, figuring that I would have to run the bigger Genny for a 40a charger. Would the new pf version be appropriate for my bank?
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,486 ✭✭✭
    My opinion is that a 40amp charger is way to big for a 225 amp bank. You may have a reason that you want to go that large, but the best way to run the Yamaha is a charger that is 400-600 watt load, so the ECO throttle will save you on fuel. A DLS -27-25 is about right and it keeps you in that 10% charge range.

    Cheap fuel is back again for a while, how long it lasts no one knows.
  • nyarelathodepnyarelathodep Solar Expert Posts: 97 ✭✭
    Thank you much. I'm ordering tomorrow, as my situation is probably close to dire with whatever is happening with my pv charge rate being almost non existent the last week or so. In your opinion, is the Iota a better pick than the samlex charger of the same amperage? Also, what other equipment needs to be obtained to hook the charger up? A breaker, I'm sure, but do I need an ac transfer switch as well?
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭

     but the best way to run the Yamaha is a charger that is 400-600 watt load, so the ECO throttle will save you on fuel.
    I don't understand this... the Yamaha can handle much more than a 600 watt load.  Does the Yamaha reach peak efficiency at 600 watts?  (I would have guessed that peak efficiency is at least double that).

    I use the eco throttle on my honda generator for all charging loads... even 1600 watts (limit for honda eu2000).  My inverter/charger ramps up the load on the generator slowly enough that there is no need to turn off the eco throttle.

    Are you recommending the 600 watt Iota because the inrush of any larger Iota would be too much for the Yamaha with the eco throttle turned on?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,486 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2015 #25
    I'll let you decide where the best fuel consumption is.




  • Mountain DonMountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 493 ✭✭✭
    For me,there's more to charging the batteries than how little fuel the generator will use. I really don't like the noise, even the low level from a throttled down eco mode H or Y. I'd rather get the battery charge bumped up as quickly as possible, shut it down and enjoy the quiet of the forest once again.   Different folks, different levels of importance applied to things. 


    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2015 #27
    Don, I agree if you are just BULKing up and not getting into ABSORB phase.  But if you don't have the sun to do your ABSORB, then the fuel efficiency , for me, kicks in and I like it as quiet and efficient as possible
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,486 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2015 #28
    A Inverter / Charger can vary it's charging load with power share. Since were talking about stand alone chargers one could assume that the poster does not have one. One can also use Generator Support to augment the generator output ( thats a different topic ).

    The concept of a Inverter Generator is that it reacts to a varying load ( as your Inverter / Charger does ), to max one out with a constant load of a large charger doesn't make sense. I have found that it works best if you use a constant load of a smaller charger over time instead of trying to max charge with short run times. That allows you plenty of reserve power to share with your AC loads that deplete the battery bank. It's a tortoise and hare argument and fuel consumption bears it out. If charging is only 85% efficient, then you lose 15% over what a AC load would use from the generator.  To make this work you have to use that bottom 400 w that the generator puts out in the lowest ECO mode with a constant load of a smaller charger.

    2 days camping ( in silence ) and long haul off grid are two different animals. Stuff you can do for a couple days and 14 days of no sun make you re-think everything and refine what you do and how you do it and what works best. Of course it's only my opinion.

    Here is a workaround I used for a couple people that have a large inrush loads ( A/C ) that would fault the Hondas & Yamahas because of the lag in the throttle.  Use two IOTA chargers, a 30 amp and a 45 amp @ 12v. The 30 amp is always in use and the 45 amp is on a relay. The load triggers the relay and adds the extra 45 amps charging to the bank when the load is present. Again not efficient, but it solves a problem and the net on the bank is about even as the A/C cycles.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭✭
    BC04, I had a similar workaround for my (old) 12V system,  I have a Xantrex 40A Truecharge which has a huge inrush. My interpretation of what I observed is that the startup protocol is to jam in all 40A and see just what resistance the battery has and then adjust the charge rate as necessary, it was  large enough to kill my Honda Eu1000i.   If I wanted to do a bulk charge on my (degrading) 1055Ah AGM battery, my other option was my Eu3000i.

    After playing around and a bunch of head scratching, I found that a short 15 minute charge with my little 15A car charger gave the battery enough surface charge to trick the Truecharge into not ramping up to 40A but to a bit less, enough that the Eu1000i could handle it.... that made me happy!

    PS my 30A 24V Omnicharge does the same ramping pattern, and the 3000i does burp/hiccup a bit at startup, on eono mode.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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