generator support options

Does anyone have an advice/experience/recommendations with inverters with generator support? Any experience with that magnum gen support module? I fixed some issues on a system that had the magnum set up and the gen support did seem a bit crude and limited. Thanks.
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Comments

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,307 ✭✭✭✭
    The Gen support with my XW-6048 is awesome, when charging via genset, and the wife starts up the blowdryer or mircowave, the charging cuts back to prevent overloading the genset, And if even more loads came online, the inverter would assist the generator as long as the batteries hold up.
    When first starting, the inverter gradually adds load to the generator and ramps up charging to the limits programmed, it does not smack it instantly with high demand,
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • tampasolartampasolar Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Do you have GFS Enabled ... under Active Power Control ?
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,307 ✭✭✭✭
    no, I have Schneider XW6048 inverter. 
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • AnawaAnawa Solar Expert Posts: 198 ✭✭
    Had a recent experience with gen support using an Outback Radian inverter configuration. 

    I'm in the middle of an installation utilizing a single Outback 8048A inverter and three Midnite Solar 250 chargers.
    The framing for the array racking system is lagging far because of delivery issues. So, the charge controller are mounted and not yet connected. The Outback Radian is up and running via the battery and 8.O Kohler genset.

    The wood flooring contractor showed-up last Thursday to sand the floors with his wheel mounted 240v (19amp) sander along with 2 more hand hinders, vacuum cleaner, and work lights. When he tried to start the sander, I noticed via the Mate3 that the voltage would spike at 12.5kW. The sander could not get started because the inverter would go off-line. 

    At times like this, it's pretty routine for me to finally get out the operation manual and begin to read. I reset the AC input on the inverter to "Support" and the sander started-up, the voltage spiked at 12.5kW, but it was able to continue until the sanding job was done.

    BTW, the system had been operational with 3 small mini-splits running 24/7 to dry out the floors before the sanding. Running off only on the batteries and genset.
    Paul 
    in Georgia

    System 1: PV- 410w Evergreen, Mppt- Blue Sky Solar Boost, Batt - 225ah Deka AGM, 12v led house lighting,
    System 2: PV- 215w Kyocera, PWM - Morningstar PS30, Batt- 225ah Deka GC's, 12v led house lighting, Dankoff 12v water pump,
    System 3: PV- 1.5kw Kyocera, Grundfos 11 SQF well pump, 3000 gal above ground water storage, dom water & irrigation,
    System 4: PV- 6.1kw Kyocera, Mppt- Outback FM80-2ea, Inverter- Outback FX3648-2ea, Batt- 804ah GB traction, Grundfos BMQE booster pump 240v, Mitsibushi mini-splits 240v, 18k and 15k
  • BushtrekkerBushtrekker Registered Users Posts: 1
    Even though I installed my own system;  Magnum 4800 inverter, Classic 150, 16-6v batteries, and 3000w peak array, I stumbled into a thing that I cannot get my head around.  I have been using a Honda eu3000i on those dark days/evenings for about 3 years.  I recently purchased a Honda eu2000i for camping and as a backup to the 3000.  When I use the 3000, I set the inverter to use 10amps from the generator.  It has worked wonderful even on econ.  But when I try to use the 2000 the inverter clicks on and runs a little, I can hear the generator responding to the load, then the inverter drops the generator.  This cycles back and forth until the generator "generation light" goes off and the generator does not provide power.  This occurs when the gen is running normally or on econ and changing the demand down to even 5 amps and still the same cycling response.  I am leaning towards the new eu2000i, but have not experience these responses of the inverter and/or charger.

    Does anyone have a clue?

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭✭
    the E2000i and not the mate?
    I would talk to your dealer, as mine does not blink when I have my batt charger on, it is not  a share or such like model but  last night . on ECO, put out 29V and 28.8 A into a 24V  bank  = 835.2W +- when I shut it down for the night... yours should be able to handle 500W
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • MichaelKMichaelK Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭
      But when I try to use the 2000 the inverter clicks on and runs a little, I can hear the generator responding to the load, then the inverter drops the generator.  This cycles back and forth until the generator "generation light" goes off and the generator does not provide power.  This occurs when the gen is running normally or on econ and changing the demand down to even 5 amps and still the same cycling response.

    I observed a similar problem with my XM.  I selected 28% load, which would have equaled 37amps, which I thought would be just right for L-16s.  The XM would refuse to qualify the generator at that level.  I finally had to drop the percentage down to 20 (28 amps) which is just 1400 watts on a 6kw generator.  However, once the XM finished qualifying the power, I found I could inch the load up a percent at a time all the way to 32% (45 amps) without the generator stumbling. 

    What you might want to try doing is actively measuring the voltage at the inverter's generator input terminals and look for voltage drop as the inverter brings the generator on-line.  There might be documented limits mentioned in your Magnum manual.  You could try dropping load almost to zero, then try inching back up once the power is qualified.

    15 Renogy 300w panels,  Midnight 200 CC, 8 Trojan L16 batteries, Schneider XW6848 NA inverter, AC-Delco 6000w gen.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,307 ✭✭✭✭
    my XW6048, loads the genset over a 10 second period, so the genset can keep up.  I've used a 2kw honeywell inverter genset, and 2 diesel gensets without issue.
     I too, had floor sander issues, over several sunny days, I noticed battery charge getting lower, and caught the floor guy, alligator clipped into the 240v buss bars in the house breaker box.  I whined to the general contractor about it, his 2 gensets could not start the sander up, he ended up with a trailered 20kw genset to run the sander.  He was impressed the inverter could handle such a beastly load. Floor guy thought he had grid power.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • MichaelKMichaelK Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    my XW6048, loads the genset over a 10 second period, so the genset can keep up. 

    Hello Mike.  Is that 10 second period programmable from the Combox?  I've scrolled through all the advanced settings on the 6848, and I'm unaware of the feature.
    15 Renogy 300w panels,  Midnight 200 CC, 8 Trojan L16 batteries, Schneider XW6848 NA inverter, AC-Delco 6000w gen.
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    The SW inverter ramps up the charge current  in the same manner, no programming involved FWIW. 
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,307 ✭✭✭✭
    ramp up is not adjustable, it just works.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • MichaelKMichaelK Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    ramp up is not adjustable, it just works.

    Sadly, in my case, no it does not.  What I have to do is set the load at a very low level, 20% (0.2 * 140A = 28A) to get my XM to quality the generator.  That's only 1540watts when charging at 55V.  What I can do though is once the generator has been qualified by the XM, I can incrementally ratchet up the percentage one point at at time up to 32%.  Manual ramp up.  Tedious, but it has worked!

    My next idea is to pull off the generator's front panel and enbel and start shining every electrical I can find.  Maybe reducing resistance might improve the generator's load bearing capacity.  I'm already using 6 gauge stranded wire between the XM and the main panel, and an 8 gauge cable between the generator and AC2.
    15 Renogy 300w panels,  Midnight 200 CC, 8 Trojan L16 batteries, Schneider XW6848 NA inverter, AC-Delco 6000w gen.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6 #14
    I keep getting confused. Do you have an XW 6848 or what is an XM?
    In every case I have ever seen with generators and the XW (over 100) it is the generator, the user in not programming AC2 correctly, or the third choice, the generator again. 

    Please list your settings!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm confused as well. You're ramping up an eu2000i to 32% (~2500w @55v)?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • MichaelKMichaelK Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭
    Sorry Dave, yes, I meant to describe my Schneider XW+6848 NA.  Will have to edit my profile.   What exactly do you mean stating "the user in not programming AC2 correctly"?  Are you referring to the percentage of maximum, or other values? 

    Estragon, I don't know where you got eu2000i from.  I have a 6kw AC-Delco.

    15 Renogy 300w panels,  Midnight 200 CC, 8 Trojan L16 batteries, Schneider XW6848 NA inverter, AC-Delco 6000w gen.
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Lost track of posters/systems. It was Bushtrekker with the 3000/2000i issue.

    Can the frequency and/or voltage acceptible to the inverter be widened? Seems to me there are settings for these on my Outbacks.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    List all of your AC2 settings and charger settings please. It is much easier for anyone to be of help. Sometimes the user has not done this and sees the problem like the AC2 transfer delay. 
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭

    MichaelK said:
    mike95490 said:
    ramp up is not adjustable, it just works.

    Sadly, in my case, no it does not.  What I have to do is set the load at a very low level, 20% (0.2 * 140A = 28A) to get my XM to quality the generator.  That's only 1540watts when charging at 55V.  What I can do though is once the generator has been qualified by the XM, I can incrementally ratchet up the percentage one point at at time up to 32%.  Manual ramp up.  Tedious, but it has worked!

    My next idea is to pull off the generator's front panel and enbel and start shining every electrical I can find.  Maybe reducing resistance might improve the generator's load bearing capacity.  I'm already using 6 gauge stranded wire between the XM and the main panel, and an 8 gauge cable between the generator and AC2.
    Dose the generator have an internal neutral ground bond, there should only be one such bond in a system, usually at the inverter / distribution end,  perhaps this is creating problems with you system.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • MichaelKMichaelK Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭
    Mcgivor: Does the generator have an internal neutral ground bond, there should only be one such bond in a system, usually at the inverter / distribution end?  Perhaps this is creating problems with you system?

    I don't know.  I can check that with my multimeter the next time I go to the cabin.  When I created the connection between the generator and AC2, I used a 4-wire cable for L1, L2, N, and G.  The neutral wire from the generator output is connected to the neutral bus in the Power distribution panel.  Then, neutral is bonded to ground in the Power distribution panel.  I read in one of the manuals that the neutral connection from the generator to the XW needs to be present, hence the 4-wire cable.

    Dave: List all of your AC2 settings and charger settings please. It is much easier for anyone to be of help. Sometimes the user has not done this and sees the problem like the AC2 transfer delay.

    AC1 low volt: 106V
    AC1 high volt: 132V
    AC1 low Freq: 55Hz
    AC1 high Freq: 65Hz
    AC2 low volt: 80V
    AC2 high volt: 138V
    AC2 low Freq: 55Hz
    AC2 high Freq: 65Hz

    Batt Type: Flooded
    Batt Capacity: 370Ah
    Max Charge rate: 100%
    Set Charge rate: 20%
    Recharge Volts : 48
    Charge cycle: 2 stage

    Bulk Voltage : 58
    Absorb Voltage : 58
    Float Voltage : 54
    Equalize Voltage :64


    15 Renogy 300w panels,  Midnight 200 CC, 8 Trojan L16 batteries, Schneider XW6848 NA inverter, AC-Delco 6000w gen.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Hmm, it looks like you are getting the settings from an SCP in basic mode. You need to be in advanced settings to see the rest of the data.
    It also could be older firmware, how old is the XW+. Below is the screen from combox and you can see at the bottom the delay is adjustable. Your input breaker should be down to 20A for a 6kw generator to start. It might work at 30 but I doubt it. Small generators for an inverter/charger that are designed  for 60A  are not easy but can be done.

    A goofed up neutral will not cause your problem, but you should check it for safety.

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • MichaelKMichaelK Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭
    edited November 9 #22
    Hello Dave, yes I have a System Control Panel, not a Combox.   I cannot access the same screen that you're showing above.  I bought my XW in August of 2016.  My AC2 input breaker is set at the default of 60A.  All this time I assumed it was referring to the physical 60amp breaker in line for the AC2 circuit of my power distribution panel.  That is not correct?  Could you explain it's function to me in a bit more detail?  I don't think the manual makes any comment about it at all.

    15 Renogy 300w panels,  Midnight 200 CC, 8 Trojan L16 batteries, Schneider XW6848 NA inverter, AC-Delco 6000w gen.
  • mcgivormcgivor Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9 #23
    The AC 2 breaker settings can be adjusted in basic settings with the SCP, the purpose is to limit the current to what the generator can support. This in turn will derate the maximum charging current in proportion to the input breakers current rating, therefore  having the AC2 breaker setting higher than the generators capacity  will cause the charging current to be too high, thereby ramping up faster than the generator can cope with. Choosing a setting of ~20A initially  will ensure the generator is not over taxed, limiting the charge current % has a similar effect, but it's better to set the AC2 breaker limit to the correct value, because any pass through loads will be included in this, please correct me if I'm wrong  @Dave Angelini
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • MichaelKMichaelK Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭
    Actually, I found the reference to the AC2 breaker in the owner's manual, on page 3-23.  So yes, the 60A value for the AC2 breaker does actually represent the physical breaker that will pop if more than 60 amps flows through it.  So, what I'm getting from all this is if I am charging via the generator through AC2, I should throttle the generator back via the "Max Chg Rate" rather than lowering the AC2 breaker limit.  So, I'll continue charging the way I've made it work, by reducing the  "Max Chg Rate" to 26-32%.


    15 Renogy 300w panels,  Midnight 200 CC, 8 Trojan L16 batteries, Schneider XW6848 NA inverter, AC-Delco 6000w gen.
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    If you can limit the ac input, that's the better way. As Mcgivor noted, this should prevent loads other than the generator from causing an overload.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    You should not be doing this! You have a max generator output that might be 30a. That is what it should be set to and 20A would be a good place to start. No wonder you are having problems! 

    One of the reasons I bill my clients is they figure they are paying and so they should listen. 
    You are free to do whatever you want.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • MichaelKMichaelK Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭
    edited November 9 #27
    Dave, who are you speaking to when saying "You should not be doing this! ", myself, or Estragon?  What I'm reading here is that I should be setting my AC2 breaker to 20amps, instead of setting the "Max Chg Rate"?  Is that correct?  20 amps at 240V is 4800 watts.  If the XW is charging the batteries at 58VDC, it would be putting in ~82amps.  That's way more than L-16s should be charged at.  40DC amps is more appropriate.  By my math that would be limiting AC2 amps to 10.  10A X 240VAC= 2400 watts.  2400 watts/58VDC= 41 amps (no losses).  Is that correct reasoning or am I missing something?


    15 Renogy 300w panels,  Midnight 200 CC, 8 Trojan L16 batteries, Schneider XW6848 NA inverter, AC-Delco 6000w gen.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Estragon knows what he is talking about. What you said 3 posts back is just plain wrong.
     Forgive me as I am not good at sugar coating and sometimes I am mildly concerned that someone will do something dumb and start a fire.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • MichaelKMichaelK Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭
    You know, these are the default settings in the XW's menu.  I am reluctant to start changing default settings just cause I feel like it.  Schneider's manual is obtuse to say the least.  A careful read of the AC2 breaker section over and over leads me to understand what you are saying, but the manual is NOT "intuitively obvious".  I'll try reducing AC2 instead of the chg rate this weekend and see how the generator performs.
    15 Renogy 300w panels,  Midnight 200 CC, 8 Trojan L16 batteries, Schneider XW6848 NA inverter, AC-Delco 6000w gen.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 7,307 ✭✭✭✭
    these are settings I use for a 240v 3kw genset.  It charges properly, AND if the blowdryer is turned on, battery charging is reduced so as to not overload the genset.  If the toaster is added, charging stops and the inverter assists the generator, until loads reduce, then goes back to charging, without overloading the genset. 
    Your mileage will vary.    Batteries not included.   Software versions may respond differently.

    Battery Bank Capacity 1000 A (1,000A makes for easy, direct conversion to charging amps,mistakes are limited to AC2 & Generator Support amps limits)Maximum Charge Rate 5-35 A
    AC2 Breaker Size 19.5 A (each breaker is only @ 120V so both will add, this setting = a limit of 4680w, internally derated to 3744w)
    Generator Support Enable: EnabledGenerator Support amps 13.1 A (each breaker is only @ 120V so both will add, this setting = a limit internally  derated to 2515w)Generator Support PLUS Enabled 

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭✭
    @Dave Angelini

    Youre right about the "I'm paying you so I should listen" thing. I've been on boards that spent $$ doing stuff recommended by "experts". When it blows up, they get to blame the "expert" instead of having to defend a "dumbass" opinion by a volunteer. No offense intended to "experts". There is absolutely a need for them. Not just for expertise, but, unfortunately, for CYA.

    In my experience as a volunteer, my experience is worth, to them, what they paid for it.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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