Great News. My Electric Bill has gone down using Solar Now

Zakarume

I want to Thank everyone for the help. Some of the question were dumb but it is a learning experience. My Electric Bill in the area was costing me $124 a month. That is on level pay. In other words, same amount every month. I just got my reevaluated bill and it is now $57 a month. That is a saving of $67 a month and i was not even using it an entire year. Now with the savings i am thinking of upgrading my system and staying at a 24v system (Thanks BB for info).

lkruper

Zakarume wrote: »

I want to Thank everyone for the help. Some of the question were dumb but it is a learning experience. My Electric Bill in the area was costing me $124 a month. That is on level pay. In other words, same amount every month. I just got my reevaluated bill and it is now $57 a month. That is a saving of $67 a month and i was not even using it an entire year. Now with the savings i am thinking of upgrading my system and staying at a 24v

system (Thanks BB for info).

You have utility power? How much did all your equipment cost and when will you break even? Also, you must have very high utility rates if a 600w load costs $67 per month.

Stix

He may be in the same boat as I when I stated that. He may also be including conservation practices aswell. I counted it because I never would have done it if going solar had not made me realize how much I actually wasted.

lkruper

Stix wrote: »

He may be in the same boat as I when I stated that. He may also be including conservation practices aswell. I counted it because I never would have done it if going solar had not made me realize how much I actually wasted.

Perhaps. BTW I did my calculation as if he could keep the 600w inverter going 24X7, but his battery bank at 80% DOD can only provide 233 kW per month with a 90% efficient inverter. If I calculated this correctly this would be 29 cents per kW to reduce his bill by $69 in one month. That being said, with AC I was in tier 3 at 26 cents per kW last month. On the other hand, summer insolation will out-produce winter and he cannot count on that kind of output all year long.

Just like with you, the batteries will be a major source of cost that must be pro-rated into whatever savings are accrued. His Trojan 105s probably cost $1000+ and at 80% DOD will likely last a year or two at that usage he must reserve between $42 and $83 each month to replace them. Lets assume they last out the warranty period of 18 months and that is $55.55 + tax just for the batteries.

Depending on how much his equipment cost for the electronics (inverter, charger controller, etc) he will do good to get 10 years from them. Another $1000 in 10 years is another $100 per year of cost, so lets add another $8 to the $55.55 or $63 per month total.

That leaves the need to account for the cost of the panels and installation. He does good to break even, and remember, that is with calculating based on a high tier and best case insolation for the summer season.

Also, because he is probably calculating his savings from a higher tier, expanding the system as he indicated he wants to do will hurt the numbers, not help them.


Cost, -- maybe -- break even. Experience, priceless!

Stix

lkruper wrote: »

Perhaps. BTW I did my calculation as if he could keep the 600w inverter going 24X7, but his battery bank at 80% DOD can only provide 233 kW per month with a 90% efficient inverter. If I calculated this correctly this would be 29 cents per kW to reduce his bill by $69 in one month. That being said, with AC I was in tier 3 at 26 cents per kW last month. On the other hand, summer insolation will out-produce winter and he cannot count on that kind of output all year long.

Just like with you, the batteries will be a major source of cost that must be pro-rated into whatever savings are accrued. His Trojan 105s probably cost $1000+ and at 80% DOD will likely last a year or two at that usage he must reserve between $42 and $83 each month to replace them. Lets assume they last out the warranty period of 18 months and that is $55.55 + tax just for the batteries.

Depending on how much his equipment cost for the electronics (inverter, charger controller, etc) he will do good to get 10 years from them. Another $1000 in 10 years is another $100 per year of cost, so lets add another $8 to the $55.55 or $63 per month total.

That leaves the need to account for the cost of the panels and installation. He does good to break even, and remember, that is with calculating based on a high tier and best case insolation for the summer season.

Also, because he is probably calculating his savings from a higher tier, expanding the system as he indicated he wants to do will hurt the numbers, not help them.


Cost, -- maybe -- break even. Experience, priceless!

Oh I agree. I learned that lesson The costs are the killer. Batteries being the achilles heel of solar for us. We just need a 30 year battery for half of what we pay now with a small footprint. Sounds fair to me The experience for me has been great and I still stay quiet and just read the forums for the most part. My last bill was $99 down from a usual high of $240. That a good drop and would have never happened if not for trying solar and seeing how much it really takes to run a house trying the same wasteful practices I was doing not thinking of it. Willy nilly the batteries and run them hard you will have some boat anchors in no time.

lkruper

Stix wrote: »

Oh I agree. I learned that lesson The costs are the killer. Batteries being the achilles heel of solar for us. We just need a 30 year battery for half of what we pay now with a small footprint. Sounds fair to me The experience for me has been great and I still stay quiet and just read the forums for the most part. My last bill was $99 down from a usual high of $240. That a good drop and would have never happened if not for trying solar and seeing how much it really takes to run a house trying the same wasteful practices I was doing not thinking of it. Willy nilly the batteries and run them hard you will have some boat anchors in no time.

Doing these calc helped me to understand a few things better, that is if I did the calcs correctly:

If someone is a big user of electricity and gets into the higher tiers of usage, providing some of that with solar might allow for a break-even without net metering.

Also, I did have another thought. If there was an application for using excess panel capacity when the sun was shining, without using or draining batteries (or with a small one for buffering), the numbers could improve. This would not work for most people, as it would be difficult to confine ones use of appliances during peak insolation house (10-2) on days with good sun. This is not really a new idea, as I have read that some who go off-grid try to do this.

solar_dave

I am grid tie on TOU and net metering yet the payback is really poor with APS. The net metering is a bit different than most in that the banking of power only happens within the TOU that it was generated, so we buy night time power. We currently have about a megawatt in the on peak consumption bank and we do load shift to consume it. Mostly car charging and swimming pool pumping every day. (We have spent less that $100 on gasoline this year so far with driving around town on the Volts) The largest item on last months bill was the service delivery charge, as we now have crossed the annual consumption vs back feed. Still life is good, our system is almost 5 years old and has had minimal maintenance costs. The AC side is setup to add more solar but APS made sure to keep us from doing that with the new solar users fee, we are grandfathered in and don't have to currently pay any of those fees. The good part is we have long ago seen the ROI.

PS I have been considering shifting the pool to a direct DC system pump and going on the flat rate tiered system, APS can't tax me for that. The pool uses about 10 kWh per day this time of year. I suppose I should get going on that calculation and see what that would do for us.

lkruper

solar_dave wrote: »

I am grid tie on TOU and net metering yet the payback is really poor with APS. The net metering is a bit different than most in that the banking of power only happens within the TOU that it was generated, so we buy night time power. We currently have about a megawatt in the on peak consumption bank and we do load shift to consume it. Mostly car charging and swimming pool pumping every day. (We have spent less that $100 on gasoline this year so far with driving around town on the Volts) The largest item on last months bill was the service delivery charge, as we now have crossed the annual consumption vs back feed. Still life is good, our system is almost 5 years old and has had minimal maintenance costs. The AC side is setup to add more solar but APS made sure to keep us from doing that with the new solar users fee, we are grandfathered in and don't have to currently pay any of those fees. The good part is we have long ago seen the ROI.

PS I have been considering shifting the pool to a direct DC system pump and going on the flat rate tiered system, APS can't tax me for that. The pool uses about 10 kWh per day this time of year. I suppose I should get going on that calculation and see what that would do for us.

How much do you pay per kW for nighttime usage? Also, I am wondering about smart appliances and if they could be programmed to run during periods of high solar gain during the day even if someone is not home.

solar_dave

lkruper wrote: »

How much do you pay per kW for nighttime usage? Also, I am wondering about smart appliances and if they could be programmed to run during periods of high solar gain during the day even if someone is not home.

My TOU is 9AM to 9PM Mon-Fri on peak the rest of the time is off peak (nights, weekends and holidays). The rates are inclusive for generation and delivery and other per kWh charges.
https://www.aps.com/library/rates/et-1.pdf

The rates in summer are as follows:

$ 0.17892 per kWh during On-Peak hours, plus $ 0.05770 per kWh during Off-Peak hours

in winter they are:

$0.14533 per kWh during On-Peak hours, plus $0.05561 per kWh during Off-Peak hours

Of course the key to TOU and solar are fully understanding your net metering plans and your TOU plans. Net metering here allows for the banking of kWh within the TOU when generated. A fee is credited to the account on Dec 31 at the rate of $0.02943 per kWh for the year end true up for any excess back feed. I find the power is better consumed than credited and we strive to use up the bulk of the credit but for us it is hard to do in Dec as the bulk of our usage is mid summer for AC. You will see is not easy here to breakdown how the charges go by looking at the myriad of additions APS has gotten the Public Utilities commission to add. This is the first month we has a service delivery charge and still no on peak generation charges so it can be a bit confusing.

As far as smart appliances go we could do more of that as both cars are programable for charge completion times and of course thermostats are also programable but we tend not to do that to squeeze the last penny out and prefer the convenience of just doing it. If I was off grid I certainly look at saving all I could.

Attachment not found.

Now could you decipher your bill from this?

Attachment not found.

lkruper

solar_dave wrote: »

My TOU is 9AM to 9PM Mon-Fri on peak the rest of the time is off peak (nights, weekends and holidays). The rates are inclusive for generation and delivery and other per kWh charges.
https://www.aps.com/library/rates/et-1.pdf

The rates in summer are as follows:

$ 0.17892 per kWh during On-Peak hours, plus $ 0.05770 per kWh during Off-Peak hours

in winter they are:

$0.14533 per kWh during On-Peak hours, plus $0.05561 per kWh during Off-Peak hours

Of course the key to TOU and solar are fully understanding your net metering plans and your TOU plans. Net metering here allows for the banking of kWh within the TOU when generated. A fee is credited to the account on Dec 31 at the rate of $0.02943 per kWh for the year end true up for any excess back feed. I find the power is better consumed than credited and we strive to use up the bulk of the credit but for us it is hard to do in Dec as the bulk of our usage is mid summer for AC. You will see is not easy here to breakdown how the charges go by looking at the myriad of additions APS has gotten the Public Utilities commission to add. This is the first month we has a service delivery charge and still no on peak generation charges so it can be a bit confusing.

As far as smart appliances go we could do more of that as both cars are programable for charge completion times and of course thermostats are also programable but we tend not to do that to squeeze the last penny out and prefer the convenience of just doing it. If I was off grid I certainly look at saving all I could.

Attachment not found.

Now could you decipher your bill from this?

Attachment not found.

That's nuts! So you cannot use peak excess in off peak hours and also cannot use winter excess in summer and only get 3 cents for the excess. How does it feel to work for the power company?

solar_dave

Well the on peak is an annual thing so winter and summer yes, on peak with off peak no.

will last year we got about $30 for the excess, we are shooting for nothing back this year if it works out.

Dashadeaux

Salutations Ikruper and solar_dave,

My apologies for butting in like this, but I find no other way to get a message to solar_dave.

A couple years ago I posted that I had created a spreadsheet for an APS 9-9 TOU Solar customer, and offered to send it to you when it was ready for distribution.  It is ready now.  In the time since I last visited this forum, things have changed, and I see no obvious way to send the spreadsheet to you.

Presuming you still have an interest, how would you like to proceed?

Dashadeaux

Ikruper wrote:

That's nuts! So you cannot use peak excess in off peak hours and also cannot use winter excess in summer and only get 3 cents for the excess. How does it feel to work for the power company?

There are only 2 billing line items that are subject to the On Peak vs Off Peak restriction.  Those are the On and Off Peak Generation charges.  There are six kWh based line item charges (known as Adjustors) that receive excess kWh credit regardless of when the kWh was generated, and these six line items are the same for a 9-9, 12-7, and Standard rate customer.  The "true" value to the APS customer of these six line items includes Taxes, Fees, LFCR, and FCA.  As of 12/31/2015 "true" Adjustor credit for the Summer months is $.06/kWh, for Winter it is $.07/kWh.  The December Reconcile only reflects the $.029/kWh for the excess kWhs at year end.

For me, 2015 ended with 4,111 excess kWhs on the books, 471 of which will receive only the $.029 Reconcile Credit.  The remaining 3,640 have received the "true" Adjustor Credit and will also receive Reconcile Credit.  The sum of which is $.09 for Summer months and $.10 for Winter.

Johann

lkruper said:

Stix wrote: »

He may be in the same boat as I when I stated that. He may also be including conservation practices aswell. I counted it because I never would have done it if going solar had not made me realize how much I actually wasted.

Perhaps. BTW I did my calculation as if he could keep the 600w inverter going 24X7, but his battery bank at 80% DOD can only provide 233 kW per month with a 90% efficient inverter. If I calculated this correctly this would be 29 cents per kW to reduce his bill by $69 in one month. That being said, with AC I was in tier 3 at 26 cents per kW last month. On the other hand, summer insolation will out-produce winter and he cannot count on that kind of output all year long.

Just like with you, the batteries will be a major source of cost that must be pro-rated into whatever savings are accrued. His Trojan 105s probably cost $1000+ and at 80% DOD will likely last a year or two at that usage he must reserve between $42 and $83 each month to replace them. Lets assume they last out the warranty period of 18 months and that is $55.55 + tax just for the batteries.

Depending on how much his equipment cost for the electronics (inverter, charger controller, etc) he will do good to get 10 years from them. Another $1000 in 10 years is another $100 per year of cost, so lets add another $8 to the $55.55 or $63 per month total.

That leaves the need to account for the cost of the panels and installation. He does good to break even, and remember, that is with calculating based on a high tier and best case insolation for the summer season.

Also, because he is probably calculating his savings from a higher tier, expanding the system as he indicated he wants to do will hurt the numbers, not help them.


Cost, -- maybe -- break even. Experience, priceless!

Our power company proposed a new 1/2 amount of the bill also, but it was years ago. We had a few month where we used less power, but it did not make sense to us why the monthly bill would or should drop that much. We just paid the regular old full amount of the bill. At the end of the year, we still owed them $50....luckily we did not go for the 1/2 amount they proposed.

So the calculated monthly adjusted bill may not be correct and may not reflect the actually savings because of the solar panel system.

Skippy

I would have too agree with the title of this thread . . .  Great news my hydro blll has gone down . . .

I am in the same situation, I have had my grid tied solar hooked up since november 1 , since my the bills are a month behind, the first bill showed no change, but the second bill (for the month of november) showed a 1/4 inch drop in the bar graph - at the bottom of the page. . .  I figure about a 30 - 40 dollar savings . . . .

I am now in the middle of winter, and the panels are covered in snow . .  so not much generation . .  but I am waitin for summer !

The way I figure it, when all is said and done, I am further ahead than the guys a work who are doing nothing about their hydro - except to bitch and whine about their bills . . . .

But then . . .. that's just me . . .