Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

System
System Posts: 2,511 admin
Hello all, I'm new here and I sure hope you all can help. We live in S. New Mexico and have a very low output well (135ft) that we have nursed along for 14 years. My dad, who also lives on the property, and I want to put in a solar pump, but we have no idea where to start. Well, that's not entirely true, he has an idea, but we don't know what to get or where to get it. Cost is also an issue, but we are aware it'll probably cost an arm and a leg.

What we need to do, since the well is low output (the well driller was a jerk and really ripped us off...long story), is somehow put in a pump that will run all day long (solar) pumping 2-4 gpm into a large tank (which we will also buy). Does anyone know how we can go about switching from electric to solar? Where can I get a pump that will reach that far and pump at least 135 ft. but only a small amount? How many panels do I need? What else is needed? I'm not sure the existing well casing size, I forgot to ask Dad but I can post when I know.

I'm sorry I don't know all the terminology, but if you have any questions to clarify please ask. My husband doesn't understand much about it either and Dad is 77 and doesn't trust computers (lol), but whatever you all can help us with I will let him know. Thank you so much for any help you can give.

Desert Flower

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    I am on city water--so I do not have much well experience...

    Take a look at this link (our host's well pump page)...

    And download the catalog/application guide for the Grundfos Solar Submersible Well Pumps.

    From what I have read, the Grundfos is a very nice--high end system--that can work with a solar panel only installation (no batteries) and supports back up generator very easily.

    Once you have understood their products and sizing steps... You should be able to look at some other products and see what will work best for you.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    The question I have is why do you want to use solar as opposed to grid sourced power? My intuition is if you have grid power available you might want to stick with it. If the issue is that you are looking for a low volume pump, as Bill suggests, NAWS would be a good place to start. The Sun Pumps, the Grunfos, and the Shurflo have pretty good reputations for different applications.

    Tony
  • Ecnerwal
    Ecnerwal Solar Expert Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    Can't see that solar makes any sense, financially, if you have grid power there now. What have you got in there now for a pump? The well is 135 ft deep, or the water level is 135 ft, or what? What is the depth of the hole, what is its diameter, and where is the water level in the hole when you are not pumping (static level)? Give us data and we can make suggestions...

    2-4 gpm is tons of water if you handle it right, unless perhaps you have a livestock or irrigation operation. I was content with half a gallon per minute, but got lucky when I opted to pay for another 20 ft (made the well price a nice round number - 100 feet of casing and a 320 foot hole - $4000) and got 5 gpm, with a 100 foot static level. That's a vast amount of water for a household, and could easily support a small dairy operation if I was so inclined (I'm not.) Leaving 20 feet at the bottom for detritus, the well stores 300 gallons of water (about 1-1/2 gallons per foot), and if pumped at 10 gpm could be pumped flat out for an hour (producing 600 gallons for that hour, because the inflow continues while the well is being pumped).

    There being 1440 minutes in a day, half a gallon a minute (pumped by the grid 24/hours a day) will provide 720 gallons/day, and 2gpm will provide 2880 gallons in a day...

    If buying a pump for the job, the Grundfos is a very nice pump, available in may different configurations with different flow-rates, and pumping a lot of water on very little power. It also costs an arm and a leg - a 1/3 or 1/2 hp 120 or 240 V submersible pump is like a couple of hundred bucks at the farm store, while a Grundfos is nearly $2000 with the controller box (which can run off of grid power - solar panels just add to the price). If your present pump is overpumping the well, it's not set up right - if it's a typical centrifugal deep well pump, merely adding a restriction in the output plumbing will cause it to pump slower and use less power to boot - price, one valve, or $0 if the valve is already there and some doofus opened it all the way up.

    Storage tank, if actually needed, will cost some money, but probably can be filled by the pump you have, if it's properly adjusted.

    <edit - add>
    If you don't have details about the well in your own records (you should) they are probably on file at some town, county or state office, if Vermont is at all similar to anywhere else. Likewise, the driller, if still in business, should have records, and if out of business, the same public office will often archive their records. The public record generally at least tells you what the hole size, depth, static level and flow-rate are (or were at the time of drilling). The driller's records will also tell you what the pump is, if they put it in.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    So what I think you are saying, is you need a pump in the 2-3GPM range, that will run un-atteneded, at 135' deep, till your 500Gl storage tank is topped off?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    Hi everybody, thank you all for your replies. Essentially, the purpose of converting the on grid well to off grid solar is because we are quite rural and we deal with weekly power outages (sometimes for days on end, the co-op pretty much deals with us way out here last). Additionally, while neighbors to the north and west are paying $60 - 90 for their electric bills (they have solar water systems) we are paying anywhere from $396 - $525 (this past summer)! Being that the electricity is iffy as it is and the bills are so high (we've narrowed it down to the constantly running well pump and because the pump runs so much the cavity often goes dry but the pump is on anyway-I am often at the pole shutting off the power to it), we thought we would invest in a solar set up too. The neighbors love theirs, but they didn't set them up so they can't help us with ours. I'm sure the initial investment will be major and we're willing to do it if it will mean the electric bill will be reasonable. We figure over several years time it will have paid for itself with the money we save off the elec. bill. I also want to see if we can convert our 3 swamp coolers to solar someday too. The less we have to pay to the co-op, the better I will feel. It seems so silly for us to consume so much electricity when solar energy is free (well, technically the equip to gather it isn't...) and clean.

    I will get the specs on the well. I know its 135 ft deep, but I don't know where the water table or whatever its called begins. The casing is 4" in diameter. When we had it drilled, the driller was having personal problems with his wife and was impatient to finish our well so he could move to Oregon to get away from her. For some reason the well caved in twice, and the second time it happened he blew out a small cavity and took off. Our well output is appx. 55 gallons before it runs out. It refills with no problem but it takes about a quarter of an hour. We have existed like this for 14 years (two households) and have suffered high electric bills the whole time, and its getting worse. We have had the other well driller out at least once a year to baby this along, bought several pumps and generally just have had a headache about the whole situation for years. lol

    Our neighbors never have a problem with their solar set up so we would like to invest in one too but don't know where to start. We want to purchase a tank of either 1100 or 1500 gallons. We're positive this will be more than enough for our existing two households as well as when my brother and his wife move into their fifth wheel on the property. All of our shower/tubs, the washer and the kitchen sink gray waters are routed outside into shrubbery and trees so we generally don't have to worry about using fresh water to garden until we start the veggie garden in spring. I still think this will be enough water for all of us. I was brought up in an rv and have spent a lifetime understanding about water and energy conservation so we'll be ok.

    So anyway...sorry to be so long winded. I wish I knew where to start with all this, but one of the posts gave me a number to call for info and I'm going to do that on Monday. I will still get the specs of the well and post. Thanks all!

    Desert Flower
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    If it were I, I wouldn't make the switch with the expectation of saving any money. (if you didn't have grid power to the well and were starting from scratch perhaps I would think differently).

    I would trade out the current pump for a low flow, low amperge pump, with a pump rate that is right for your hole. It makes little sense to have a pump vent much of it's output back into the hole just to keep from pumping the hole dry. I don't know a lot about 120/240 small volume pumps, but for example there is no reason you couldn't run either the shurflo or grunfos low voltage, low volume pumps off grid power by transforming the voltage. Just for the record, the shurfol 9300 submersible pumps into 60psi (~120ft) at ~3.6 amps @ 12 volts,,, 43 watt. 24 hours would be 1.3kwh. Pumps ~ 40gph or ~.66gpm or 960 gpd. The other nice thing is that they can be installed by hand in a deep well, unlike many other larger submersibles that with their own weight plus the weight of the piping, require a winch to pull and service.

    I'm sure there are line voltage pumps that could do the same thing. I know of someone that had a shuflo 9300 in service for over 8 years without service. If you have a tank that has a float switch to turn it off, it seem like it could be the perfect solution. You could also wire it to a panel simply if you wanted to abandon the line voltage grid power.

    Tony

    You should probe your well to find the static level, and determine a good draw down rate. You should be able to borrow one from any driller or pump guy, or can make one out of a sensitive DVM and a ton of wire. (Probably easier to borrow) Drop it in the well, and it beeps when it hits the water, pump for x amount of time, remeasure the well, let it recharge and see how long it takes,,, gives you a pretty good idea of how much you can draw from a well. Also gives you a good idea if your water table is being drawn down if you check it every few months or years.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    2 types of pumps/water systems:
    1) gravity feed, where you pump to an elevated tank, and let gravity water your house. Several hundred gallon tank, and supposed to shut off when full

    2) pressure tank. The tank looks like a 50gallon propane tank, and has a rubber bladder in it, creating 2 parts. 1 part holds 2-25 gallons of water, the other part is sealed with air in it, As your pump runs, it pressurizes the water in the half tank, and then is supposed to shut off. The pressure lets you run about 15 of your stored 25 gallons, and then the pump is supposed to start up again, and re-pressurize the tank again, only about 20 gallons at a time.

    Why your pump is running for hours, and draining the well dry, does not fit either style.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Ecnerwal
    Ecnerwal Solar Expert Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    55 gallons, 15 minutes: certainly over 3 gpm.

    The grundfos pumps, which appear to me to be a more reliable long term bet (but cost more than shurflo) are here:

    http://store.solar-electric.com/grsoposuwapu.html

    You'd want either the 3 sqf-2 or the 3 sqf-3, plus a CU-200 control box, and a float switch to turn the pump off when the tank is full.

    That and 150-550 watts of solar panel should get you going.

    Between one and three of these, say (likely two is plenty):

    http://store.solar-electric.com/ky205wasopaf.html

    However, it's still the case that something is drastically not right with your present install, and probably that can be fixed for a lot less money - but if you want solar (the grundfos gives solar or grid option) this should do it. Do you actually normally use more than 55 gallons in 15 minutes???

    The SDS D228 or D128 would get the job done cheaper - but you may have to service it more often:

    http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/wind-sun/SDS-D-2280.pdf

    Shurflow similar price to the SDS, more plastic.

    http://store.solar-electric.com/sh93susowapu.html
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    I didn't know there were electric low flow low watt pumps. Hmm, sounds like an option to me. Our pump feeds into a pressure tank, but I think something is wrong with the tank because it loses pressure quickly. I think another poster was right, that the tank water backflows back down into the well. I'm not sure how to fix that, maybe it's time for another visit from our local well driller. We have stock to water so I think that is one of the reasons that the pump runs almost constantly. Aside from that, the toilets in the house don't "run" (know what I mean?) and I don't think the hot water heater leaks or backs water, and all the faucets are tight. During the summer there are eight swamp coolers being run all the time, so the water is on practically 24/7 (I so want to convert those coolers to solar).

    I'm going to talk to dad about staying on grid and getting the low watt/flow pump and fixing the pressure tank (I can't recall the gallon size of it but it stands about as tall as I am (5'2") and is probably as big around as one of those bottle propane tanks. If he is still hung up on going solar, I think there is enough information here to get us started for sure. Thank you all so much for your help, I really appreciate it!

    Desert Flower
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    Find a GOOD, REPUTABLE, driller/plumber to come evaluate your system. (In my experience there are lots os crummy drillers out there!) It sounds like you may be lacking proper check valves, and your pumps are running way too much. Your pressure tank may be losing pressure because it has lost it's head of air. Non-bladder tanks can get "water logged" and need to be drained to allow a head of air in, or have air pumped in via a schrader valve.

    Calculate what you need over the average daily use, for domestic and farm, stock, garden, and build (rebuild?) a system to cover that need.

    Good luck,

    Tony

    PS Your driller may not be familiar with low volume/long cycle pumps, so spend some time finding out all you can.
  • Ecnerwal
    Ecnerwal Solar Expert Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    Shop around a bit - if you had one guy come drill the well and run off, and the other guy has been "fixing" the system regularly since (yet it's this screwed up), I'd be looking long and hard for a third guy that knew what the heck he was doing, not to put too fine a point on it.

    Who put in the trouble-free solar pump system your neighbors have?
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    who says there is anything wrong with the well or pump?, just the high electric bill?

    The OP is running the pump for for Cattle, 2-3 households and 8 swamp coolers 6+ months a year, that not exactly a typical offgrid load

    First thing to do is measure what the actual gallon usage is ... then work backward from there. Going to a low-flow pump may just reduce the available flow. I'm not saying there isn't some issues, but the last post started to reveal in more detail what the property load is, I image keeping cattle watered and swamp coolers can really add up in the gallons used per day

    For a typical 1HP pump, even running 24/7 is only going to pull maybe 30 kWh/day or 900 kWhr month ... at 20 cents kWh that's about 180 month, so if you have a 500+ dollar electric bill lots of other things to look at as the cause
  • Lefty Wright
    Lefty Wright Solar Expert Posts: 111 ✭✭
    Re: Newbie Needs Help Switching to Solar h2o pump

    When I had trouble with silt in my water I found that my 10 gal/min pump was so powerful that it sucked up silt with the water.

    I thought about replacing the pump with a smaller one. To see if that would work I cut a 3/4" valve into the 1" pipe coming from the well. The valve allowed me to cut the flow down to 2 gal/min and minimized the silting.

    You could do the same for a lot less money than changing your pump.