Small meter question

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Comments

  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,681Super Moderators admin
    Re: Small meter question

    Here is the US wind map, with links to state level maps.

    Is the tower actually mounted to your home? Or just on a concrete pad next to your home (and no guy/stays attached to your home).

    Wind Turbines are noisy and generate lots of vibration. Very few people are ever happy with one attached to an occupied structure.

    As you can tell, I have lots of reservations about wind power. You can read about the good and bad on this link (actually the guy is pro-wind).

    I picked these links from NAWS' store (wind section). There is other good information there too.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    The tower is sunk in a concrete pad and runs up the side of the house and then attacted at the second story fasha(sp?)
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,681Super Moderators admin
    Re: Small meter question

    Not a good idea--and the turbine should be at least 30' above the roof line and/or trees in the area.

    Turbines also shed blades--if your close to other neighbors...

    Read through this site (from previous post "good and bad")... Unless you live in a very windy area, and don't have nearby neighbors--Wind is almost never going to be practical for the typical person.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    Yeah I cant remember how far about the secord story peak the tower continues, but its gotta be around 30'. I dont have any close neighbors that the blades would hit either, but your points are all valid!
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    Well after talking to you about all these different avenues it seems like most of them are either bad ideas or really not feasable or a waste of money.

    Would you have any recommendations for anything that I would be able to do with lest say 20 watts of solar power? Which I know is not much. Something more or less that I could tinker with and educate me with some hands on experience?
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,681Super Moderators admin
    Re: Small meter question

    I am sorry--not trying to be a "downer" here. Expectations about solar from many people often exceed the capabilities of small solar systems. And they are not happy with the results.

    Build a yard light with motion detector kit controlling a buck mode switcher (from someplace like the sandwich shop) powered LED? Or get a nice MR 16 12vdc lamped fixture. You could build or buy your own solar charge controller for the battery.

    Or, how about a DC powered fence charger to keep the deer out of the garden patch.

    Run a small daytime water pump, aeration, and/or filtering system for a fish pond (may not be a good idea in your area.

    Solar Powered "boom box" for when you are out in the yard working?

    Run a DC powered motion detector security camera?

    If you have yard/farm tractor, boat, or other items that sit for six months of the year--a central battery trickle charger system?

    Basically, anything that you use around the house where dragging an extension cord for using a rechargeable battery for is a pain.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    Hey no problem at all! Im thinking that I might try making a system with an LED bulb for my lamp beside my chair, battery and charge controller.
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    Im sure this is a stupid question, but it would be a more efficient system to get a 12v DC LED bulb vs. a 110v AC LED bulb because I wouldnt have to get an inverter correct? With an inverter I am going to lose power in the conversion to an extent?
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,681Super Moderators admin
    Re: Small meter question

    LEDs require a "ballast"... That is, LEDs require XX mAmps of current to properly light... Too little current, not much light. Too much current, they burn up. LEDs are "non-linear" devices... I.e., they are diodes and a little change in voltage will give a great change in current (also, they are temperature sensitive--so changes in temperature will also change the "operating point").

    So, you can connect "12 volts" and a series resistor to limit current to the LED, or you can use a (ideally) switching power supply setup to output the correct amount of current.

    With a (for example) 12 volt battery, and a "~2-3 volt" LED, more than 75% of the power is wasted as heat in the resistor.

    With a properly designed switch mode power supply, you get around 80-95% efficiency.

    Next, depending on how much power you need (current*voltage) and how far you need to send the energy... You may choose to send a little power a short distance using 12 volts DC--Or you may choose to send a lot of power a long distance... Then, typically, you would want a 120/240 VAC inverter (~85-95% efficient) because you can use thinner wire at a higher voltage (and lower current)--to supply a "properly" configured/ballasted LED.

    So--no exactly correct answer. Each requirement needs its own rough design vs pros and cons to see which is best (more money spent on copper wire, less money spent on a inverter; or less money spent on copper wire and more money spent on inverter).

    Typically, with AC powered devices, they tend to be less efficient because Utility Power is so cheap. Now that EnergyStar ratings have been created--the AC devices are getting quite a bit more efficient--and manytimes, it is cheaper to buy the "AC" version of a device vs the DC version (just based on economies of scale).

    For example CFL's and refrigerators... The DC version of these cost many times the price of the AC version--so even if the AC version is slightly less efficient, it is cheaper to get the AC version and just add a little bit more Solar Panel and Battery instead from the savings.

    For example, 13 watts of a DC set of LEDs will have, roughly the same light output of a 13 watt. I can get probably buy a single 13 CFL for probably 1/10 the cost of the equivalent of 13 LEDs.

    However, if I want a reading lamp... A focused 2 watt LED is better for bedtime reading than a 13 watt flood type CFL. And the LED does not bother me near as much at the CFL when I am trying to sleep and my wife is reading.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    Ok. I looked at some of those LED bulbs on that site you linked, the screw in type, both AC and DC verisons.

    1. I might have skipped over it, but do those bulbs have ballasts built into them? That way I could either hook the 12v Bulb up directly or 120 AC directly with the use of an inverter?

    2. I was just browsing around this sites store and others and also ebay. I came across this. Not knowing a whole lot about them, but it seems if it was in good conidition if this unit went for a low price that would be a good deal on a very good unit.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ProStar-30M-MORNINGSTAR-Solar-CHARGE-CONTROLLER-w-METER_W0QQitemZ150321916567QQcmdZViewItemQQptZElectrical_Solar_US?hash=item150321916567&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A15%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318#ebayphotohosting
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,681Super Moderators admin
    Re: Small meter question

    Generally, if the bulb says it is 12 VDC or 120 VAC--they have some sort of ballast built in. Whether it is electronic or a resistor--don't know. (I just pointed to that website as the first hit off of google--don't know anything about the vendor or their product--just to give you an idea of the wide variety of LED product out there).

    In some cases, you might find detailed spec. sheets... Others, you may end up having to buy one of each and test them yourself to see if they meet your needs.

    If you are into lighting (and lighting with a flashlight bent)--take a look at CandlePowerForums (family friendly too) --- too much information over there. Look around and ask some questions--you will get lots of help (I post overthere once in awhile too).

    Regarding the MorningStar 30M PWM controller... Very good company and nice controller. PWM--which is fine when you have "12 volt" (really Vmp=~17volts) panels and a "12 volt" battery bank.

    A good idea with any charge controller is to get the models that support a remote battery temperature sensor--and purchase the RBTS for the unit.

    Regarding Ebay--I don't know the vendor or the condition of their product. As always, you are welcome to give it a try.

    And, as a favor to our host--if you can avoid putting a lot of Ebay links on this forum and point to NAWS (or mfg. website, etc.) instead--we would greatly apprieciate it--for several reasons.

    1. Ebay is a competitor with our host--and other than selling one off personal equipment (you want to sell your old controller/panels on this board and upgrade to a new set)--please limit the posting of Ebay links.

    2. Ebay links go "dead" in a few weeks or so--for people that are searching for information later on--missing links are kind of frustrating and kill the usefulness of the archives.

    Thank you,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    Yeah I was looking at the Candlepower forum, you arent kidding that there is alot of information over there.

    As far as the ebay links, sorry about that, wasnt even thinking in that aspect, but I understand completely.

    I was just reading about the RTBS from:
    http://store.solar-electric.com/prosremtempr.html

    1. Just to make sure I am correct on this you only need a sensor whenever your controller and battery are going to be in different ambient temperatures. If the controller and battery are close together inside or outside I shouldnt need a sensor?

    2. I was looking at some solar panels and now that I have read about controllers so much I have a question about voltage. The panels I was looking at were 10watts/18volt. If I have a PWM controller do I want to stay away from any panels rated at anything higher than 12volts?

    3. If I had a MPPT controller it wouldnt matter what my panels voltage is correct?
  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,785Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question
    1. Just to make sure I am correct on this you only need a sensor whenever your controller and battery are going to be in different ambient temperatures. If the controller and battery are close together inside or outside I shouldnt need a sensor?

    2. I was looking at some solar panels and now that I have read about controllers so much I have a question about voltage. The panels I was looking at were 10watts/18volt. If I have a PWM controller do I want to stay away from any panels rated at anything higher than 12volts?

    3. If I had a MPPT controller it wouldnt matter what my panels voltage is correct?

    1) A. You DO need a BTS, because the controller warms up when charging, and the battery stays cooler, and needs the correction.

    2) A. Avoiding 18+ V panels will save you power, voltage over 18V will be wasted. the MPPT controller will convert that extra voltage to charging watts.
    A 10w panel is really only good as a trickle charger for a car. If you are very miserly with it, you can charge a cell phone every other day.

    3) A. You would need to be aware of your MPPT's max input voltage, and make sure the panels do not exceed it, otherwise the magic smoke stored inside the controller, leaks out. Also, for a 10W system, the MPPT controller will consume at least half of that just to run its internal circuitry. Read the specs, before you purchase.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    With whatever system I build its not going to be anything real big. Does any make a fairly inxpensive MPPT controller?

    I have been looking at this controller:
    http://store.solar-electric.com/pros30solcha.html

    What is the correct way to attach this sensor to the battery?
    http://store.solar-electric.com/prosremtempr.html
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,681Super Moderators admin
    Re: Small meter question

    The two major MPPT controllers that I am aware of are the Morning Star and the BlueSky.

    wind-sun_2037_2375254Morningstar SunSaver MPPT Solar Charge Controller
    The worlds most efficient small solar charge controller

    Neither is cheap... And with options (RBTS, computer interface option, etc.), the price will go up.

    The MorningStar has (last I looked) the widest panel input voltage (for "small" MPPT Controllers) and would be a good choice for systems where the solar panels are mounted a long distance from the battery shed.

    But, MPPT controller have more losses (more electronics), and so are not real efficient when running with undersized panels... For example, the MorningStar MPPT is ~92% efficient down to 25 watts--below that, the losses increase dramatically.

    There are cheaper MPPT controllers out there--but, for the most part, they are a complete waste of money (if they even function at all). There are cheap "MPPT" charge controllers on Ebay at times--and these tend to be more off-brand/no-name scams. For example, there are some "BZ" brand controllers right on (US EBay)--they are not even a good value for "free".

    Generally, for attaching a RBTS to the battery, they just bolt to one of the battery posts (insulated lug for RBTS) to get the best temperature "reading".

    Your system will work without an RBTS--but, as Mike said, the controllers tend to self heat because of the current going through them--and they cut back on the final charging voltage for the battery--you can loose 10-20% of your final capacity (which is 20-40% of the daily capacity if you assume you discharge a battery no more than 50% for longer life).

    Some controllers, like the MorningStar MPPT will just not properly charge your battery without the RBTS (the internal sensor seems to be way off wrt to outside air temperature).

    In some cases, for example you have a large amount of solar panels vs battery capacity (more than the recommended 5%-13% charge current of battery 20 Hour rating), the charger will start to overheat the batteries and the required voltage for the battery should drop--which the (colder) charger sees as needing more charging--and you can get a thermal run-a-way (probably not real likely with smaller installations).

    Don't oversize the charge controller--in general, you will just have more "tare" losses because of the larger electronics--as well as paying for more than you need.

    A 30 amp 12 volt controller can run 400+ watts worth of solar panels. Not worth attaching a 20 watt panel to--unless you are planning on adding a whole lot more panels in the near future.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    1. So an RTBS is not always needed, but does help with the life of a battery.

    2. MPPT controllers be used in larger application due to the loses with the electronics.

    Here is what I like about some of the controllers options and maybe you can direct me in which way I should go.

    From both of your advice, I would like to have the option of an RTBS. I like the LVD because if i am running a light or anything and forget to turn it off it will do it automatically and not drain my battery to absolutely dead. Having a LOAD connection is nice. And lastly I know it is far from necessary, but a small digital screen is nice just to watch the progess, voltages, current etc without having to get out the multimeter. So with that you have any ideas?
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,681Super Moderators admin
    Re: Small meter question

    LVD's are, usually, of limited use... The are OK at turning off small loads (like yard lights) if the battery is approaching dead. But not good for switching heavy loads like an inverter or motor.

    Also, LVD's don't really do a good job of protecting the battery... LVD's are voltage dependent and it is difficult (pretty much impossible under load/charge) to determine the battery's state of charge with just a volt meter.
    Low Voltage Disconnect (LVD) - Do I need it?

    Short answer is, probably not. LVD will disconnect the LOAD from the batteries if the batteries get too low (around 11 volts). About the only systems that normally use the LOAD terminals are places like remote and unattended sites, such as battery powered camera monitors or alarm systems. Those types of systems should have the LVD option, but most other systems - such as RV's, small cabin systems, any system that uses an inverter do not need it. It is usually a bad idea to run an inverter from the LOAD output, as surges can blow the controller.

    I don't have any useful first hand knowledge on what is best for you... I too like meters so that you can see that everything is OK. But if this is just a smaller system (for yard lights, as an example), then a specialized charge controller with a timer may be more useful.

    wind-sun_2035_6154975Sunlight solar lighting controller 10-amp 12 volt
    Charge controller and light timer for solar powered lights

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    So what is the best way to know that you arent draining your battery to much, besides timing whatever it may be you are operating?
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,681Super Moderators admin
    Re: Small meter question

    Short of using a hydrometer in your battery every day (every day is not recommended--and can't use for sealed lead acid batteries), letting your battery rest for 3 hours (then measuring with a DVM)--A Battery Monitor is the best tool for the job (probably too expensive to justify for a small battery bank).

    Probably something like this DC Watt/Amp Hour (used by Radio Control folks and others--I don't know anything about the vendor or their products) would be helpful.

    People killing their first set or so of batteries via over/undercharging/too much load is very common--pretty much everyone here has done it. (been there, done that).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    Do the battery montiors, http://store.solar-electric.com/didcvome.html, http://store.solar-electric.com/blsea80anvom.html, work while the load is operating, or does the load have to be switched off?

    Yeah thats why I am asking these questions, I would rather try to avoid at all costs killing a battery.
  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,785Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question
    Yeah thats why I am asking these questions, I would rather try to avoid at all costs killing a battery.


    1) What is your load? (in watt hours - 50 watt light for 3 hours = 150 Watt hours)
    a daily load, or a weekend cabin?

    2) What is your panel wattage ?

    Then we can advise a bit. For something really small, maybe a Trace C12 controler, not fancy, but works, and has a very elegant red/green led for state of charge.
    Most LVD's will shut off about 80% dead battery, just before it's compelty dead, so don't rely on it. Same with inverters with LVD, it's to save the inverter, not the battery.

    Think of battery voltage as being as important as the oil level in your car, when the red light comes on, it's time to buy a new engine.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    1. I dont know what my load is yet, cause I havent decided exactly what I want to power.

    1A. For sure I want to get a LED light bulb and run that for a few hours or more a night and also find a way to charge my cell phone as well.

    2. I havent bought a panel yet, even if I couldnt use my system everyday it would be something I could learn from. So even if I am a little under powered and it takes my battery awhile to re-charge that I dont care

    3. I dont have a battery yet either.


    I am trying to get a handle on all aspects of buidling a small system and then sizing things according, then buying what I need/want.

    Thanks
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,681Super Moderators admin
    Re: Small meter question

    BBB,

    Both of what you showed are simple meters (volt/amp/etc.)... These are not the same thing as a Battery Monitor.

    An analogy (I always like analogies--but I probably confuse more people than I help with them--but lets give it a try :p )...

    Your car's gas tank and a speedometer. No odometer, no car gas gauge. No gallons reading from the gas pump. You are only able to estimate the amount in the tank by knocking on the side with your fist after the car has sat for 3 hours, or you have to open an access plate in the top and using a dip stick to measure the fuel level (and the access plate is covered with mud and dirt).

    So, you are left with watching the speedometer and the clock on your wrist to figure out your how much gas is in your tank. And when you go to fuel up--the pump will put in as much fuel as it can, based on how sunny it is... It may take 3 days of going to the gas station to fill up--or you pull in and the tank is full in 1/2 a day... All depends on how much you have been driving (by guessing at your average speed and how long with your watch) and how much sun there has been recently.

    The Battery Monitor is, at the very least, the gas gauge--tells you how much fuel (amp*hours, watt*hours, or xx% of capacity) is available for your use at anytime. It does this by monitoring (totalizing) all of the current into and out of the battery--and resetting itself to "full" once the battery voltage and total amount of current (amp*hours) has been pumped into the battery bank. Sort of like a gallons meter on the one pipe to your fuel tank--filling and draining the tank (amp*hours) is totalized by the battery meter.

    For the low end, yet very functional and useful Battery Monitor, look at something like this:

    wind-sun_2038_2724926Trimetric TM2020 Battery Monitor System
    Shows state of charge and other information about deep cycle battery systems

    For something that has the most features and, I think the really neat, a programmable contact the turns off/on based on xx% of battery capacity. If you have an unattended site or teenagers (same thing?), you can program it to turn off the inverter (TV, video games, stereo, computer) when the battery capacity drops to 50%:

    wind-sun_2033_15080217Xantrex LinkPRO Dual Battery Monitor System
    Xantrex dual battery monitor

    Again, these things are not cheap--and if you have a small system, don't make much sense unless the site is needs 100% reliability (such as a radio repeater). Spending $350 to protect $35 battery is pretty difficult to justify--just budget buying 9 replacement batteries over the next 10 or twenty years.


    The RC W/A*Hour meter is $60 or so... And while it is not designed as a battery monitor--you can at least totalize the amp*hours in and out of the battery as you experiment.

    Download the user manual (on this site) about the Watt's Up/Doc RC metering system. It has quite a bit information on how and why a Amp*Hour / Watt*Hour meter is important for use with batteries.


    In the end, you really need to define your loads and requirements for the RE systems first--then design the RE power system.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    Your analogy was informative, haha. I tend to use them alot too so it wasnt too confusing.

    I did read most of the manual on the Watts Up/Doc RC metering system. That little gadget can provide a ton of information!

    Ok, I am guessing "RE" means Renewable Engery system?

    I know that a battery and solar panels would be the last thing when planing a system.

    So like I have been thinking, something to run my bedside lamp with a LED bulb and an inverter to be able to plug my cell phone in and charge it up.

    The bulbs i was looking at were like 3-7 watts and just guessing I would run that for around 6 hours a day max.

    With the inverter and charging a my phone I know I wouldnt need a big inverter but wouldnt mind one big enough to run other small things if need be. All I know is it takes my phone from dead about 1.5 hours to charge.

    I know that this is not the total information i need but its a start I suppose.
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,681Super Moderators admin
    Re: Small meter question

    RE=Renewable Energy... Yep (at least as I used it here).

    In the end, what you want to use the system for is your choice. This is not a direct cost/benefit issue--but more of a educational cost.

    Otherwise, I would ask how is your conservation/emergency preparedness...

    Solar PV Power is pretty well defined and works just about as advertised. Wind Power, especially for smaller home size systems, has a long way to get there.

    However, trying to do solar 1/2 way can get you into trouble. Batteries--full of acid and potential for Hydrogen explosions. 12 volt wiring runs, but forgetting the fuse at the battery--shorts cause fires. Solar panels and wiring to your bedside can bring energy from a lightning strike into the home.

    All of these things can be addressed--to a degree, they take almost as much work/planning to do for a small system as they would for a large system. So--you will still get your education.

    Money wise--Spending on conservation and possibly a small backup generator (I love the Honda eu2000i) and a siphon hose (20 gallons of fuel will last you a week or two of running a few lights, fridge, and a TV) to siphon your own vehicles is a good way to keep the house running while waiting for the utility crew to clean up the mess (or in my case, the next "Big One"--earthquake).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • boisblancboyboisblancboy Posts: 131Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Small meter question

    Actually where I live the power is out about 6 times a year and sometimes out for 3 or more days. I have a large Yamaha generator, cant remember the wattage, but it runs the whole house with no problems.

    As far as what I want to do with solar power, I dont know. I just have always found it amazing and interesting that you can collect power from the sun, store it in batteries or use it directly to do some sort of work here or there.

    Whether it is absolutely pointless for me to do or not is not a big concern. Just something I have always been interested in and hopefully if things change in the future with technology I might even have a head start on knowing what I am doing.

    So, lol haha, I dont know, I gotta start somewhere i suppose.
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