Genny confusion re: size

morpho

Hi everyone,

Ok, here is the situation:
I have a 48v battery bank on PV that I need to keep charged during winter darkness. Have been using a Yamaha 2000is that is rated at 13amps max.
It works pretty hard feeding into my system.
I have to keep the rate down to 10% on the outback flexmax CC to keep the little genny from running away. This puts the incoming amps at 11. If I go to 20% she races into the 16-18 amps range and I can hear it dying a rapid death in front of my eyes.

Have been looking at a great deal on a yamaha ef4000d that will put out close to 30 amps on the 120 side...
Of course this is louder and sucks up more fuel...

So I come to the forum to have a look around and see a lot of talk about why would anyone need anything larger than a honda or yamaha 2000 just to charge the bank.

Am I off base wanting or thinking I need a larger genny?

Thanks for any input.

Cariboocoot

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Some confusion here.

Your Outback FM charge controller has nothing to do with generator charging. There's no percentages to set on this.

Generator feeds the Magnum inverter-charger. It handles the AC based charging. Unfortunately the Magnums are a poor choice for small gens because they have a high initial demand when operating in charge mode (as do the XW's).

The 10% setting with the Magnum is percent of its maximum charger ability. The 4448 can do 60 Amps DC as I recall, so 10% would be a mere 6 Amps. Definitely not enough for 220 Amp hours. It should be about 36% which would be around 22 Amps. That would be slightly over 1kW even with the PF corrected charger. It does not leave much room for loads transferred to the gen.

That said 13 Amps from the gen should manage 30 Amps DC to the batteries providing there are no AC loads to supply (unlikely). I have a feeling the culprit here is the Magnum's charger more so than the generator. Since you don't want to spend $2,000 replacing the inverter ... or do you? Generators can be expensive too.

Bigger generator.

First of all the 4448 can take 240 Volt input at 17 Amps per leg. This is 4kW range; well above what the 2000is can manage. You could buy a Honda EU3000i - fairly quiet inverter-gen with 30 Amp 120 VAC output.

You normally do not want to run 30 Amps @ 120 VAC: the current level is too high for standard wiring of that Voltage level. But if you go with 10 AWG and the locking 30 Amp plug it will work.

I have to ask: are you running the Magnum for 240 VAC or not? Because you may find the cost of changing to an Outback FX 3048 or VFX 3648 is less than buying a bigger generator (which will use more fuel).

Blackcherry04

Re: Genny confusion re: size

When your using generators to supplement your charging is becomes the " Tortoise and / or the Hare " . There once was a time I thought it had to be fast but after getting a Honda EU 2000 I have rethought my charging, I would have thought a 10 hr Generator run would be out of the question, now it's become normal. I have a pair of Honda's and running them in parallel is the cheapest when you need the extra capacity and gives you a back up to the backup. They'll both run in ECO and their ability will surprise you. You can keep track of the hours and swap them back and forth and won't run one to death. Your Yamaha 2000is will do the same.

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

""Some confusion here.""

Oh...this is the state of my life.

So, yes...I have misspoken.....
I need to manage the Magnums request to the Genny in the magnum remote - (setup - 05 Charge rate - 10%) I discovered this the first time I put the genny to her and it went bonkers...
So, thats ok...she charges the system over a stretch of time somewhere in the 6-8 hours. It just seems to tax the little engine doing it. If I set the remote to 20% I swear the Yami is going to fly out of the shed! The reading on the Remote says 18amps...now I always assumed this was way way way over what the gen could handle...but you are saying it is not...am I correct in assuming this?

When the fridge decides to turn on, the gen revs and the connection to the yamaha drops and relinks back to the 11amps.

I have no 240 loads.
I currently have a 10 gauge on the connector to the house.

(this has all come to a head because I need to take it in for servicing and will have no way to boost the system for the week or so they will have it. Then I see a great deal on a larger rig. Then I start thinking maybe I should get that...then I find out that I need a different Inverter! hahaha....I may crawl back into my cave.

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Blackcherry:
I have thought about getting another 2000is and pairing them ...but this 4000 yamaha is on sale for less than half price...but its loud and uses more gas...I like my little generator....I don't care too much about speed of charging...but I don't want to drive this thing into an early grave because I am pushing it too hard.
It has about 1200 hours on it already...so maybe it's performed pretty well all things considered....?
Hmmm?

Cariboocoot

Re: Genny confusion re: size

morpho wrote: »

I need to manage the Magnums request to the Genny in the magnum remote - (setup - 05 Charge rate - 10%) I discovered this the first time I put the genny to her and it went bonkers...
So, thats ok...she charges the system over a stretch of time somewhere in the 6-8 hours. It just seems to tax the little engine doing it. If I set the remote to 20% I swear the Yami is going to fly out of the shed! The reading on the Remote says 18amps...now I always assumed this was way way way over what the gen could handle...but you are saying it is not...am I correct in assuming this?

If that is the current going to the batteries: 18 Amps @ 48 Volts = ~ 864 Watts. About half power for the gen.

When the fridge decides to turn on, the gen revs and the connection to the yamaha drops and relinks back to the 11amps.

This is because the refrigerator's start-up demand in conjunction with battery charging and any other loads causes a momentary current demand in excess of what the gen can handle. So the inverter drops the gen, then picks it up again after a certain amount of time (after re-qualifying).

I have no 240 loads.
I currently have a 10 gauge on the connector to the house.

(this has all come to a head because I need to take it in for servicing and will have no way to boost the system for the week or so they will have it. Then I see a great deal on a larger rig. Then I start thinking maybe I should get that...then I find out that I need a different Inverter! hahaha....I may crawl back into my cave.

Needs servicing? Hmm. I've got 6,000 hours each on my Hondas and the only servicing they've had is oil changes.

What needs doing that justifies losing charge source or having to buy another gen at a time when solar isn't going to be sufficient?

Look for a cheap, used generator for back-up.

Blackcherry04

Re: Genny confusion re: size

morpho wrote: »

Blackcherry:
I have thought about getting another 2000is and pairing them ...but this 4000 yamaha is on sale for less than half price...but its loud and uses more gas...I like my little generator....I don't care too much about speed of charging...but I don't want to drive this thing into an early grave because I am pushing it too hard.
It has about 1200 hours on it already...so maybe it's performed pretty well all things considered....?
Hmmm?

There is nothing wrong in having a screamer as a back-up, I have one myself from years ago ( haven't used it in years ). If that fits your pocketbook and your willing to put up with it, it's fine. I just wanted you to think about pairing, in case it fits your use, for me it does. For instance a Honda EU3000 weighs 146 lb, more than I can move by myself.

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Cariboo:
I bet I have something flip-turned-upsidedown in my head.

I have been assuming all along that the 11amps (10%) or 18 amps (20%) is the AC coming from the generator. The Generator is rated at 13.3 amps max on the AC
So my logic has been to keep it under the rated amps.
Are you saying I am off and should be revving that little sucker up a bit?

Yes she needs a bit of help from the service tech. A profound Oil leak...my best guess is the crank-case gasket needs replacing, but I'm not a small engine guy so who knows...(or a large engine guy for that matter!) I'd pull her apart except when I do anything with an engine it always ends up in a string of foul language, little pieces thrown across the yard and plans to hunt down an engineer or two!
(knowing full well it is my ineptness at fault...but in the moment it seems logical)

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Blackcherry:
Any idea if you can pair two different sized Inverter models?
I'd rather not buy any new..or used Genny...I don't even have the space for the one I have. I keep it on top of the freezer in the utility room. (makes for easy starts as she is always nice and warm!)

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Just looked it up...they have to be the same model...

Blackcherry04

Re: Genny confusion re: size

morpho wrote: »

Blackcherry:
Any idea if you can pair two different sized Inverter models?
I'd rather not buy any new..or used Genny...I don't even have the space for the one I have. I keep it on top of the freezer in the utility room. (makes for easy starts as she is always nice and warm!)

I am not sure that paring two different size generators would work at well. One would be overloaded and the other one would still have a more capacity. It might up to a point then the smaller would fault. Also , I'd not try it without them both being Inverter generators with the ability built in.

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

HUH!
So the yamaha 2000is in Canada doesn't seem to have the twin tech ports.
So there goes that idea!

Blackcherry04

Re: Genny confusion re: size

morpho wrote: »

HUH!
So the yamaha 2000is in Canada doesn't seem to have the twin tech ports.
So there goes that idea!

That is interesting. Thats what you get when you assume something.

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Images/Yamaha-ACC-0SS55-70-01/i11134.html

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Yup...100% confirmed there is no logical way to connect the two together in Canada...Slighted once again!
Well...at least we can buy Kinder eggs...which are obviously way more dangerous than dual generators in the US.

Blackcherry04

Re: Genny confusion re: size

morpho wrote: »

Yup...100% confirmed there is no logical way to connect the two together in Canada...Slighted once again!
Well...at least we can buy Kinder eggs...which are obviously way more dangerous than dual generators in the US.

Yep, I just found this.

cannot be twinned in Canada. I spent a bunch of money thinking I could parallel. It doesn't say anything on the Canadian site that the machines cannot be run in parallel. It was only when I inquired about the cable to connect them that I found out the Canadain government won't allow twinning. No help from Yamaha Canada. You're on your own.

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Cariboocoot:
Regarding the longevity of this generator.
I maintain it as recommended..oil, air filter, spark plugs etc etc.
I had it for about a month and the valve dropped into the cylinder...and the piston pushed it right through.
Yamaha said it would be about 2 months for the parts to arrive from japan. I managed to shame them into dealing with it faster..it has performed flawlessly since then...until now. Now I have a puddle of oil in the suitcase every time I use it. It drains out the bottom of the case and I pour more in and repeat the process. I have to say this process ensures she always has clean oil in it though!

With all this said, it is by far the best rig I have owned....what does that tell you about how crappy most generators are?

oil pan 4

Re: Genny confusion re: size

That is why I don't like Yamaha generators.

BB.

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Note, do some research, but you MAY be able to parallel the two Yamaha inverter generators together using a suicide cord (two male plus and one female).

On the Honda inverter generators, the parallel and ac plugs look to be connected to the same wires in the genset schematics (at least when I last checked a decade ago).

Your generators, your risk. Obviously, lots risk here.

-Bill

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

hahaha...ya I know it's possible, and I'm not worried about the suicide cord...it's the chance some of the electronics in the US version are MIA in the Canuckistan version and I cook the generators and anything attached to them.

BB.

Re: Genny confusion re: size

One rumor has it that Yamaha (and/or Honda) was required by CSA to remove the sync electronics too.

-Bill

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Well fair enough regarding the CSA...it is what it is...I don't have the time to play engineer anyway.

I Am still at a loss about figuring out the generator issue.
Just sitting here for the last while thinking about the costs and low life expectancy of a gas genset.
From what I have been able to figure...
A typical high-ish end rig will last somewhere in the 1000hrs regardless if it's a 3000w or 2000w (yes I have come across a bunch of people saying they have 3,4,10k hours on theirs, but I would imagine there are more that died at 500hrs.)

The only difference then between the 2k and 3k watt... would that you dropped an extra 1000 dollars. They are both going to be driven into an early grave by charging a battery bank for hours on end.
So if you don't care how long it takes the generator to bulk charge your system...why get a large/more expensive generator? Get the 2000w one and run it into the ground!

Or you get a diesel and it should last longer. But man alive 80 decibels is LOUD!

Is there any logic to adding to the PV system instead of all this? On a cloudy day in the winter I typically still see 2 amps coming into the system. 80 percent of the time I am drawing less than that.

Maybe I just pack up for the winters and sit on a beach!

BB.

Re: Genny confusion re: size

You want a 5% minimum rate of charge, and 10%+ would (possibly) be better for battery life. A estimate of generator rating would be:

59 volts charging * 220 AH battery bank * 0.05 rate of charge * 0.80 charger eff * 0.80 genset derate = 1,014 Watt
59 volts charging * 220 AH battery bank * 0.10 rate of charge * 0.80 charger eff * 0.80 genset derate = 2,028 Watt

The above numbers are very rough estimates--But show that a Honda eu2000i or equivalent will give you a bit more than 5% rate of charge.

And you would need a significantly larger genset for a 10% rate of charge.

13 to 20% would be a goodly rate of charge...

-Bill

oil pan 4

Re: Genny confusion re: size

morpho wrote: »

A typical high-ish end rig will last somewhere in the 1000hrs regardless if it's a 3000w or 2000w (yes I have come across a bunch of people saying they have 3,4,10k hours on theirs, but I would imagine there are more that died at 500hrs.)

Or you get a diesel and it should last longer. But man alive 80 decibels is LOUD!

If you get something gas or diesel with a 4 pole generator that runs at 1800rpm it will be quiet and could last 20k hours and will quietly sip fuel compared to a 3600rpm 2 pole screamer.

mmag

Re: Genny confusion re: size

I would like to see a side by side comparison of say a Honda EU 3000 and a Honda EU 2000 both with a load of 1500 Watts, to see the fuel consumption comparison,I bet it would be pretty close, And i would be upset if my honda genny only lasted 500 hours

Cariboocoot

Re: Genny confusion re: size

morpho wrote: »

From what I have been able to figure...
A typical high-ish end rig will last somewhere in the 1000hrs regardless if it's a 3000w or 2000w (yes I have come across a bunch of people saying they have 3,4,10k hours on theirs, but I would imagine there are more that died at 500hrs.)

Boy are you off the mark. If you spend money for a good gen and it only lasts 1,000 hours either you have horribly abused it or the manufacturer is a crook. You can get that amount of time out of a $500 screamer with no problem.

But I really like the idea of spending Winter on a nice warm beach somewhere. Regrettably Canada is a bit shy of those.

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

BB:
Thanks for the numbers. you guys are always good for that stuff! (it always takes a few days to figure out what you are talking about though!)

OilPan:
I can't seem to easily find anything small enough and when I do...they are wickedly expensive. 7 grand doesn't even make me blink now!
Maybe I am just trying to find a UNICORN and there is no getting away with not dropping wads of cash on genset after genset and burning barrels of gas.

mmag:
I'm not even all that fussed about fuel consumption...well..within reason.
I am concerned with getting a bit of longevity out of the thing.
I mean I don't even have 400hrs on mine and its got a mysto oil leak that seems to be coming from the upper part of the engine somewhere. (way to hard to get a look into it without ripping into the thing...and as I have said before I am no mechanic)
And yes I am a bit upset about it!

I actually took it in a few weeks ago and told em I had an oil leak and they said they couldn't find it. They figured I had spilled oil into the case when I was changing the oil. I said maybe..but not likely...and took her home...ya...there is an oil leak for sure.
So I will take her back again and see if its worth fixing.

(sorry cariboocoot...didn't think that word was offensive)

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Cariboocoot:
I agree!
I decided to drop the cash on this thing 3 years ago to avoid the cheap throw away generator problems.
I do the oil changes, I clean the filter, Scrub the carbon off the spark arrestor, fuel stabilizer etc...Heck, for summer storage I even pull the spark plug drop oil in there... get compression... reinstall the plug..etc etc I don't personally know anyone who does that around here!....and it still is crapping out on me.

Did I abuse it by running it almost full tilt for battery charging...I don't know...I'm not an expert. But I certainly didn't under maintain the thing.

Maybe I just got the dud coming off the line that day...

Cariboocoot

Re: Genny confusion re: size

morpho wrote: »

Cariboocoot:
I agree!
I decided to drop the cash on this thing 3 years ago to avoid the cheap throw away generator problems.
I do the oil changes, I clean the filter, Scrub the carbon off the spark arrestor, fuel stabilizer etc...Heck, for summer storage I even pull the spark plug drop oil in there... get compression... reinstall the plug..etc etc I don't personally know anyone who does that around here!....and it still is crapping out on me.

Did I abuse it by running it almost full tilt for battery charging...I don't know...I'm not an expert. But I certainly didn't under maintain the thing.

Maybe I just got the dud coming off the line that day...

Could be. I'd not be happy with anything that developed an oil leak so soon.

I've got a cheap wood splitter with a no-name Chinese engine that has over 1,000 hours on it. I had planned from day one to replace it with a Honda as soon as it gave out. So far it hasn't given out, despite the hours (always running full throttle for the hydraulic pump to work) some of which are unknown because I let my step-son use it too. Change the oil, let it run. It bangs and clangs and rattles ... and runs.

Yet you can buy a new name brand gen like that Yamaha and it's giving up before it's even got going! I would not be happy at all.

CDN_VT

Re: Genny confusion re: size

the coldest darkest corner of canada , needs Quality oil with the correct Viscosity , Now that's the hard one for a -20C start , but run's full tilt .
I would not be running cheap automotive sae junk . Full Synthetic Cold Viscosity type (I use Euro rated or MIL spec only for those area's , as all DO ) .
Here some would want to know the make of the screaming demon.



VT

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Hey CDN VT,
She always had synthetic in her...and now through her!...hahahaha...sigh.
It lives in the house so it never has a cold temp start.
It's a Yamaha ef2000is

morpho

Re: Genny confusion re: size

Hey Oil Pan:
Just stumbled across this one http://www.generatorsales.com/order/09912.asp?page=L09912
I want...if only because it looks like an awesome way to lose an arm!