charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Shawn-H

ok I just purchased a used Outback inverter charger and I'm using it and an 900w geni to charge my batteries on a 24 volt system. my solar 245v Canadian Solar panel will not do the job. I have A Ts-60 pmw charge controller.

the problem seems to be I can never get the batteries full. The voltage will tell me that the batteries are full and the outback will stop charging them because they're full but the charge controller will continue to stay in bulk charging mode pushing the batteries slightly over their float charge requirements. the question is how do I convince the charge controller that the batteries are full so it will stop over charging the batteries. I have 2 x 110 amp hour 12 volt interstate batteries.

Cariboocoot

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

This is not going to work, for reasons which have been explain numerous times. So here we go again.

Your 245 Watt panel does not have a high enough Vmp (it's about 30) to bring the batteries to Absorb level, which is going to be around 28.8. Actual panel Voltage after losses will likely be lower than that. The TriStar PWM controller will only pass the current from the panel, which falls off drastically when the Voltage goes above its Vmp point. As such the controller will think it's in Bulk forever. All it can do is contribute current in that stage: it will never manage the finish charging.

You'll need to charge fully via the gen & inverter, which is not cheap because it means you'll be keeping the gen running while it is putting out the quite low power requirements to provide that finish charge. You also must have a MATE to program the inverter for proper current limits and charging Voltages/time.

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Cariboocoot wrote: »

This is not going to work, for reasons which have been explain numerous times. So here we go again.

Your 245 Watt panel does not have a high enough Vmp (it's about 30) to bring the batteries to Absorb level, which is going to be around 28.8. Actual panel Voltage after losses will likely be lower than that. The TriStar PWM controller will only pass the current from the panel, which falls off drastically when the Voltage goes above its Vmp point. As such the controller will think it's in Bulk forever. All it can do is contribute current in that stage: it will never manage the finish charging.

You'll need to charge fully via the gen & inverter, which is not cheap because it means you'll be keeping the gen running while it is putting out the quite low power requirements to provide that finish charge. You also must have a MATE to program the inverter for proper current limits and charging Voltages/time.

ok did you read what I said I had already said that the solar panel is just not enough we had already talked about this the issue I'm having is that the charge controller does not see that the batteries are full and continues to over charge the batteries. I have the mate I have the voltage set up correctly to match the charging curves given by the manufacturer of the battery the issue is the charge controller charge controller charge controller charge controller charge controller is not seeing that the batteries are full and continues to run the up to 27.4v instead of where they're supposed to be at 26.6v

Cariboocoot

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Shawn-H wrote: »

ok did you read what I said I had already said that the solar panel is just not enough we had already talked about this the issue I'm having is that the charge controller does not see that the batteries are full and continues to over charge the batteries. I have the mate I have the voltage set up correctly to match the charging curves given by the manufacturer of the battery the issue is the charge controller charge controller charge controller charge controller charge controller is not seeing that the batteries are full and continues to run the up to 27.4v instead of where they're supposed to be at 26.6v

It can't "over charge" the batteries. It is regulated by Voltage. It just has the wrong Voltage in mind and is holding 'Float' above what the inverter is set at, although the charge controller doesn't understand this. They won't fry even at 27.4 Volts. If you're really worried, change the Absorb Voltage setting on the TriStar to a lower value. Unfortunately that's not easy because you have to connect it to a computer and run their software to install "custom" settings (as opposed to picking the pre-selects from DIP switches). And while you're in there check the TriStar's Float setting too, because it should "follow along" with the inverter during charge and "think" it has gone through Absorb at 28.8 even though it can't bring the batteries up there.

How much current is it passing to hold it at 27.4 Volts? All 8 Amps the panel can produce, or just a fraction thereof?

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

it's just a fraction it's usually right around 3.1A. I figure if the batteries are getting charged to charge controller should know and believe that it went through the proper cycles I'm starting to think for something wrong with the charge controller.

Cariboocoot

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Shawn-H wrote: »

it's just a fraction it's usually right around 3.1A. I figure if the batteries are getting charged to charge controller should know and believe that it went through the proper cycles I'm starting to think for something wrong with the charge controller.

Have you got the digital display with that one? You should be able to watch as you charge and see the controller read Absorb Voltage, etc. Because you are right it should "follow along" (temperature compensation can through this off, though) and go through the cycles regardless of where the actual charging is coming from.

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

I have no temperature compensation and here are the two screens that I have. one is just the 245w solar panel. And the other is what I see when charging from the generator. https://www.dropbox.com/s/zs27afpckeloegc/20140824_094057.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7wcrnwx5p5p9zq8/20140824_094216.jpg?dl=0

Cariboocoot

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Interesting.
So both charge sources agree on what the Absorb Voltage should be and it is apparently being reached, but the TriStar is attempting to maintain it after the inverter is 'done'. (I looked up the default Float Voltage for the controller and it is 26.8.)

The manual is pretty vague about what controls Absorb time, and that seems to be where the problem lies. Without utilizing the custom settings (and assuming the controller isn't defective) you may be able to change the TriStar settings so it 'thinks' the battery is lower Voltage and runs through Absorb faster.

How have you got DIP switches 4-5-6 set now?

Some would say that temp compensation may help here, and/or that using the battery sense terminals would.

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Off-on-on 14.4-13.3-15.1

Cariboocoot

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Shawn-H wrote: »

Off-on-on 14.4-13.3-15.1

That is the 'lowest' setting for flooded batteries.
I would try to 'fool' it by going with the sealed battery settings, in sequentially lower increments.

Also, how long is Absorb set for on the Outback inverter? I think the default is one hour or possibly two. It should not take long with 110 Amp hours and it may in fact take too little time for the TriStar to deal with. Unfortunately MS avoid the Absorb time question completely in their info, making vague references to "it depends on battery type and charging history" which is pretty unreliable to my way of thinking.

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

I have it set to 2 hours but it only takes 14 min. To get to 28.8 so I let it (the inverter) drop the charge tell it's only 100w witch is its lowest charge wattage. Then after 2 hours of 28.8 it shuts the charge.

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Cariboocoot wrote: »

That is the 'lowest' setting for flooded batteries.
I would try to 'fool' it by going with the sealed battery settings, in sequentially lower increments.

Also, how long is Absorb set for on the Outback inverter? I think the default is one hour or possibly two. It should not take long with 110 Amp hours and it may in fact take too little time for the TriStar to deal with. Unfortunately MS avoid the Absorb time question completely in their info, making vague references to "it depends on battery type and charging history" which is pretty unreliable to my way of thinking.

I tried to change the voltage set points for the Tri Star and the only thing that happened is now it constantly goes into fault because the voltage is too high. for some reason the Tristar will not see the batteries as full.

Cariboocoot

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Shawn-H wrote: »

I tried to change the voltage set points for the Tri Star and the only thing that happened is now it constantly goes into fault because the voltage is too high. for some reason the Tristar will not see the batteries as full.

Yes, I can understand that: if it thinks the Absorb Voltage should be 'X' and another source is bringing it above that the controller might not be happy. An Outback would just say "BAT FULL" and not fault.

Multiple controllers, btw, are easier to 'align' than a controller and an AC based charger which 'disappears' when the AC is removed and the charge controller then has to make decisions for itself. It seems the TriStar is making 'wrong decisions'.

So you're left with the choice of setting the controller to 'nearest' where you had it before and ignoring the elevated Float level caused by it miscalculating the Absorb stage (this is probably easiest) or getting the MS View software and computer hook-up and trying some custom programming to get it to agree with the Outback, or changing the charge controller.

Inevitably you will be doing that last one because you'll want the charging to come from solar most of the time, not from the generator. That means another panel like you've got already (wired in series with the first one) and an MPPT controller capable of >16 Amps. At that point you'll probably decide the battery bank isn't large enough so ... more panel. Just try and plan ahead for what may happen along these lines.

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

I think I've come to the same conclusion also I only have to wait until february in february I will get a 24 volt 1100 amp hour forklift batteries and 6100 watts of panel and 3 x FM-80 charge controllers. I'm just trying to put together a small system that will last me until February or MarchI plan on getting four panels close to the one I have now and 2 more batteries.

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Yes, I can understand that: if it thinks the Absorb Voltage should be 'X' and another source is bringing it above that the controller might not be happy. An Outback would just say "BAT FULL" and not fault.

Multiple controllers, btw, are easier to 'align' than a controller and an AC based charger which 'disappears' when the AC is removed and the charge controller then has to make decisions for itself. It seems the TriStar is making 'wrong decisions'.

So you're left with the choice of setting the controller to 'nearest' where you had it before and ignoring the elevated Float level caused by it miscalculating the Absorb stage (this is probably easiest) or getting the MS View software and computer hook-up and trying some custom programming to get it to agree with the Outback, or changing the charge controller.

Inevitably you will be doing that last one because you'll want the charging to come from solar most of the time, not from the generator. That means another panel like you've got already (wired in series with the first one) and an MPPT controller capable of >16 Amps. At that point you'll probably decide the battery bank isn't large enough so ... more panel. Just try and plan ahead for what may happen along these lines.

how long should I run the generator for since I'm not doing it to make the charge controller happy anymore I reach full tijd in about 15 minutes of 28. 8 how long should I leave it in absorb mode before moving on with my day and not wasting my fuel.

Cariboocoot

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Shawn-H wrote: »

how long should I run the generator for since I'm not doing it to make the charge controller happy anymore I reach full tijd in about 15 minutes of 28. 8 how long should I leave it in absorb mode before moving on with my day and not wasting my fuel.

Watch the charge current on the MATE. It will be in AC Amps so you have to convert to DC: multiply by 5 to get the approximate equivalent. When it drops down to 1 that's around 5 Amps or 5% of your 110 Amp hours and mark the time. Then let it go to 0 Amps. The time in between the two should be about 2.5% charge rate which is as close to fully charged as you're going to get. If it only takes 15 minutes to reach Absorb it probably isn't going to take an hour to complete the charge.

One thing I do not like about Outback is the lack of DC Amps control on the built-in charger!

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Watch the charge current on the MATE. It will be in AC Amps so you have to convert to DC: multiply by 5 to get the approximate equivalent. When it drops down to 1 that's around 5 Amps or 5% of your 110 Amp hours and mark the time. Then let it go to 0 Amps. The time in between the two should be about 2.5% charge rate which is as close to fully charged as you're going to get. If it only takes 15 minutes to reach Absorb it probably isn't going to take an hour to complete the charge.

One thing I do not like about Outback is the lack of DC Amps control on the built-in charger!

I do not have amps on my mate it shows me watts. and only in 100 watt increments nothing lasts if you know how to change this please let me know. also it does allow me to change the amount of DC voltage I bring in to the batteries from the charger.

Cariboocoot

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Shawn-H wrote: »

I do not have amps on my mate it shows me watts. and only in 100 watt increments nothing lasts if you know how to change this please let me know. also it does allow me to change the amount of DC voltage I bring in to the batteries from the charger.

Which MATE version do you have?
Horrible sensation it's the over-priced MATE III which isn't really useful for FX inverters.

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Which MATE version do you have?
Horrible sensation it's the over-priced MATE III which isn't really useful for FX inverters.

It's the mate 1 oval.
Also I have a small 45w 12v that I hooked up and it boosted The voltage and is just barely making the 28.8v I'm hoping that it will fool the ts-60.

Cariboocoot

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Shawn-H wrote: »

It's the mate 1 oval.
Also I have a small 45w 12v that I hooked up and it boosted The voltage and is just barely making the 28.8v I'm hoping that it will fool the ts-60.

You hooked the 45 Watt panel up how? In series with the 250? That would increase the Voltage, but at the expense of most of the current (lower Imp of the small panel will 'choke' the current).

You can convert the Watts 'now' into Amps by dividing by the Voltage.

I see the latest version of the manual talks about using it in conjunction with the FNDC so I think there's some function confusion with the MATE III. What they are describing does not fit with my MATE unit at all.

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Cariboocoot wrote: »

You hooked the 45 Watt panel up how? In series with the 250? That would increase the Voltage, but at the expense of most of the current (lower Imp of the small panel will 'choke' the current).

You can convert the Watts 'now' into Amps by dividing by the Voltage.

I see the latest version of the manual talks about using it in conjunction with the FNDC so I think there's some function confusion with the MATE III. What they are describing does not fit with my MATE unit at all.

the 45 watt panel did work but all it did was create extra work for me I'm going to ignore the problem and hope that the slightly higher float voltage does not damage the batteries. I'm still not sure how long I should charge the batteries forI'm going to stop charging them when the inverter drops the drops the wattage down to 100(this takes about an hour) I will have set at 28.8 for about 45 min.

Cariboocoot

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Shawn-H wrote: »

the 45 watt panel did work but all it did was create extra work for me I'm going to ignore the problem and hope that the slightly higher float voltage does not damage the batteries. I'm still not sure how long I should charge the batteries forI'm going to stop charging them when the inverter drops the drops the wattage down to 100(this takes about an hour) I will have set at 28.8 for about 45 min.

This would be pretty close as 28.8 Volts * 2.5 Amps would be 72 Watts and that to my mind would be the cut-off for Absorb on 110 Amp hours.

Shawn-H

Re: charge controller issues ts-60 pmw

Thank you. It was what my thoughts were as well.