Question on Inverter Charger configurations

Raj174

Say I have grid power and have it connected to L2, the generator AC input. So I want to run my load on Inverter/battery during the day while charging by solar and then into the night until the battery reaches whatever voltage is approximately 20% DOD. At the time the low voltage set point is reached will the inverter transfer the load to the power on L2 (generator input) ? Is this configurable? The inverter charger in this scenario is a higher end type like the Xantrex XW4548 120/240. Thanks
Rick

Blackcherry04

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

I don't have a XW series, but on the newer SW series you have to have a Xantrex AGS attached to the Xanbus to get them to work with different inputs if controlled by the Inverter automatically. It does not have to be wired up to the Gen / Grid, but it has to be present. Without it for instance the Gen Support will not work. Once it's installed the menu for it will come up on the SCP and there is a lot of settings for the input that can be configured.

Cariboocoot

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

Raj174 wrote: »

Say I have grid power and have it connected to L2, the generator AC input. So I want to run my load on Inverter/battery during the day while charging by solar and then into the night until the battery reaches whatever voltage is approximately 20% DOD. At the time the low voltage set point is reached will the inverter transfer the load to the power on L2 (generator input) ? Is this configurable? The inverter charger in this scenario is a higher end type like the Xantrex XW4548 120/240. Thanks
Rick

Two (rhetorical) questions:
1). You have grid power, so why do you have an off-grid system set up?
2). You have panels for recharging during the day so why would you need to recharge from grid at night?

mike95490

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

I assume you are wanting to save electric costs at peak daytime rates, and recharge at cheap night rates. Sadly, battery replacement costs will be several times your grid power savings over the 3 year life of batteries cycled down to 20%.

The XW with only a SCP or Combox controller, can be programed for AC1 grid support, and to not sell to grid, which will likely do most of what you are looking for, I believe. I'm off-grid and manually start my genset & have it connected to AC2, so I don't know what added features the AGS module provides.

With batteries in the system, you are going to want to have a generator for cloudy day backup if the grid is down, and wire it to AC2, where the XW expects it.

SkiDoo55

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

My question is what are the components of your system, actual inverter make/model, charge controller etc.
Mike is correct that if an Actual XW inverter it can be set to do exactly what you want. Grid on AC1 input, (L1-N-L2), Gen on AC2 (L1-N-L2). Grid support "ON"/ Sell "OFF". Charger "OFF" Note this does not effect charging from AC2 from generator etc. If you had a XW. MPPT charge controller with this it would do a complete charge cycle on batteries each day and only support load with surplus solar power. Batteries get priority from solar. Would need a SCP or ComBox to set the enhanced function. This is why will need exact components so as not to speculate on how to help!

Raj174

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

I don't have a XW series, but on the newer SW series you have to have a Xantrex AGS attached to the Xanbus to get them to work with different inputs if controlled by the Inverter automatically. It does not have to be wired up to the Gen / Grid, but it has to be present. Without it for instance the Gen Support will not work. Once it's installed the menu for it will come up on the SCP and there is a lot of settings for the input that can be configured.

Thanks, Blackcherry04 - I thought that might be the case.

Raj174

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Two (rhetorical) questions:
1). You have grid power, so why do you have an off-grid system set up?
2). You have panels for recharging during the day so why would you need to recharge from grid at night?

Thanks for responding Cariboocoot.
1. I want an Off Grid system in case the grid is down for any extended time. I know that grid tie hybrid with battery backup would be a better solution, but grid tie would be a problem for me.
2. Charging the batteries would be done during the day from the panels.
The purpose of setting it up this way would be to try to recoup some of the investment in the off grid system.
Thanks again,
Rick

Raj174

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

mike95490 wrote: »

I assume you are wanting to save electric costs at peak daytime rates, and recharge at cheap night rates. Sadly, battery replacement costs will be several times your grid power savings over the 3 year life of batteries cycled down to 20%.

The XW with only a SCP or Combox controller, can be programed for AC1 grid support, and to not sell to grid, which will likely do most of what you are looking for, I believe. I'm off-grid and manually start my genset & have it connected to AC2, so I don't know what added features the AGS module provides.

With batteries in the system, you are going to want to have a generator for cloudy day backup if the grid is down, and wire it to AC2, where the XW expects it.

Your assumption is correct Mike, but the purpose of the off-grid system is not to save money, but to have it if there is no grid power. The purpose of the question is to find a way to recoup as much of the investment as possible along the way. Thanks for the information you responded with. It will be helpful. By the way, how are those NiFe batteries working out for you? I bet they were pretty expensive.
Thanks,
Rick

Raj174

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

SkiDoo55 wrote: »

My question is what are the components of your system, actual inverter make/model, charge controller etc.
Mike is correct that if an Actual XW inverter it can be set to do exactly what you want. Grid on AC1 input, (L1-N-L2), Gen on AC2 (L1-N-L2). Grid support "ON"/ Sell "OFF". Charger "OFF" Note this does not effect charging from AC2 from generator etc. If you had a XW. MPPT charge controller with this it would do a complete charge cycle on batteries each day and only support load with surplus solar power. Batteries get priority from solar. Would need a SCP or ComBox to set the enhanced function. This is why will need exact components so as not to speculate on how to help!

The other components that I already have are (12) 300w panels, and a Midnite Classic 150. Still need inverter/charger, e-panel, batteries and PV combiner box. As I stated, I haven't purchased an inverter yet. That's why I am asking questions, so that I can find an inverter that will meet my needs. So it sounds like the Xantrex XW4548 120/240 will do what I want as long as I get the SCP. Is that correct? I want to make sure before I shell out that much money.
Thanks very much SkiDoo55
Rick

SkiDoo55

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

Would need SCP or ComBox to apply the enhanced settings, my preference would be the ComBox gives you so much more in features and accessibility. The XW will not follow or talk to your charge controller, so you would have to turn off grid support to achieve a full charge cycle on batteries. Other wise is will produce power down to LBCO setting. Loose the voltage tracking feature of the combined devices.

Raj174

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

SkiDoo55 wrote: »

Would need SCP or ComBox to apply the enhanced settings, my preference would be the ComBox gives you so much more in features and accessibility. The XW will not follow or talk to your charge controller, so you would have to turn off grid support to achieve a full charge cycle on batteries. Other wise is will produce power down to LBCO setting. Loose the voltage tracking feature of the combined devices.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. Can you describe what you are saying in the form of a sequence of events such as " the inverter is supplying grid power to the load, next the Classic CC is charging the batteries, when the batteries reach a certain voltage, this or that occurs, etc.
Thanks

SkiDoo55

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

With a XW inverter connected to an XW MPPT charge controller via the ZanBus connectors the inverter will follow the settings of the charger, about 0.5 volt below. It will allow the charger to do a full 3 stage charge cycle ( depending on solar radiation) for the day. If surplus power is available from your array over what the batteries need it will convert and pass to the AC output. Any loads that exceed what is available from solar is derived from the grid on AC1 input. The load supplied by the batteries and inverter will taper off to Zero and then revert to AC Pass thru from the grid. Loads have to be within the capacity of the inverter. If grid fails in this mode will seamlessly switch to "Inverter" to supply loads until you reach LowBatteryCutOut (LBCO) or the grid comes back. If grid comes back before battery cut out reached will revert to AC pass thru. In the morning when solar starts it will recharge batteries with first priority.
If grid was to remain down for a long period or desired, you could connect a generator to AC2 input and when qualified inverter would pass load from generator and any surplus generator power would be used for battery charging. You can set max amperage to to taken from generator after which would change to inverting to supplement the generator. When load reduced below setting would revert back to charging. There are other settings just for peak,load shaving also. Haven't play with that one so would ask for others to chime in if when you wanted information

Hope that is clearer explanation of that mode of operation.

you can download the manual from NAWS site or from Schneider.

Raj174

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

SkiDoo55 wrote: »

With a XW inverter connected to an XW MPPT charge controller via the ZanBus connectors the inverter will follow the settings of the charger, about 0.5 volt below. It will allow the charger to do a full 3 stage charge cycle ( depending on solar radiation) for the day. If surplus power is available from your array over what the batteries need it will convert and pass to the AC output. Any loads that exceed what is available from solar is derived from the grid on AC1 input. The load supplied by the batteries and inverter will taper off to Zero and then revert to AC Pass thru from the grid. Loads have to be within the capacity of the inverter. If grid fails in this mode will seamlessly switch to "Inverter" to supply loads until you reach LowBatteryCutOut (LBCO) or the grid comes back. If grid comes back before battery cut out reached will revert to AC pass thru. In the morning when solar starts it will recharge batteries with first priority.
If grid was to remain down for a long period or desired, you could connect a generator to AC2 input and when qualified inverter would pass load from generator and any surplus generator power would be used for battery charging. You can set max amperage to to taken from generator after which would change to inverting to supplement the generator. When load reduced below setting would revert back to charging. There are other settings just for peak,load shaving also. Haven't play with that one so would ask for others to chime in if when you wanted information

Hope that is clearer explanation of that mode of operation.

you can download the manual from NAWS site or from Schneider.

So, it sounds like if I use the Midnite classic CC then the lack of communication between the inverter and the CC will make this inverter unacceptable for meeting my needs. Is that what you believe to be the case.
Thank you for you patience,
Rick

mike95490

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

Raj174 wrote: »

So, it sounds like if I use the Midnite classic CC then the lack of communication between the inverter and the CC will make this inverter unacceptable for meeting my needs. Is that what you believe to be the case. Thank you for you patience, Rick

Well, the 2 chargers (grid & solar) will operate independently of each other. But, if you have grid, there IS NO NEED to cycle the batteries daily and wear them down. You could have a smallish battery bank, and only on the occasions of grid failure, use and cycle the batteries. The XW will act like a whole house UPS. If you expect extended outages, you can recharge with a generator, and not spend the $$ for solar that you can't backfeed to the power company.

I've added gear, and not updated my .sig line. I have an additional 2Kw PV array on a Midnight classic 200. I wirelessly monitor the XW Combox, Tristar MPPT60 and the Classic, and while they all connect to the batteries, it takes a lot of "tuning" to null out the miniscule voltage differences that show up in the wiring.

And yes the NiFe bank was pricey, and changing out the electrolyte will be a horrible PITA.

Raj174

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

mike95490 wrote: »

Well, the 2 chargers (grid & solar) will operate independently of each other. But, if you have grid, there IS NO NEED to cycle the batteries daily and wear them down. You could have a smallish battery bank, and only on the occasions of grid failure, use and cycle the batteries. The XW will act like a whole house UPS. If you expect extended outages, you can recharge with a generator, and not spend the $$ for solar that you can't backfeed to the power company.

I've added gear, and not updated my .sig line. I have an additional 2Kw PV array on a Midnight classic 200. I wirelessly monitor the XW Combox, Tristar MPPT60 and the Classic, and while they all connect to the batteries, it takes a lot of "tuning" to null out the miniscule voltage differences that show up in the wiring.

And yes the NiFe bank was pricey, and changing out the electrolyte will be a horrible PITA.

That's a good idea Mike. So, with the SCP I can run the load on inverter in grid support mode, and in the evening it will switch the load over to the grid, keeping battery use to a minimum. I was reading about the Outback Radian GS4048A and the ZeroGrid Tech, sounds exactly what I'm looking for, but so expensive at 2750.00, and still need the 430.00 mate 3 on top of that. Oh, I was reading up on the NiFes and what a long life they have. I saw all your pictures on Facebook and I have to say, all the work and time in that system, especially the NiFes is inspiring to say the least. Well, thanks for the suggestions. I need to finish reading the Xantrex XW4548 manual. One other thing, I will need to have the combox to monitor the inverter correct?
Thanks for your time,
Rick

mike95490

Re: Question on Inverter Charger configurations

Raj174 wrote: »

... One other thing, I will need to have the combox to monitor the inverter correct? Thanks for your time, Rick

Yes, the ComBox has most of the SCP functions in it, and monitor/logging and remote programming features. It can even update the XW inverter software. It's pricey, but quite versatile.

The most driving factor in my purchase of the NiFe, was in winter, extended times (weeks) of cloud cover precluding full charge cycles. Now i only worry about running the generator long enough to get through the night and running in the morning. i don't worry about sulfating the batteries. No useable wind power here, and not enough elevation for microhydro.