just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Shawn-H

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Yeah you're probably going to want to change away from propane 'frige. The more you use it, the less economical it is in relation to electric. Been there, done that; #1 reason for putting in our $8,000 solar electric power system.

You're right that you don't want to charge your phone (or anything else) off a cheap MSW inverter. There are lots of low Watt 12 Volt pure sine inverters. Not too expensive. Samlex/Cotek line is okay as long as no big demands are made of it (won't start motors): http://www.solar-electric.com/inverters-controllers-accessories/inverters/sasiwain1/samlex-pst-series-pure-sine-wave-inverters.html You still need batteries and a way of charging them as they don't have built-in chargers. So that means getting something like an Iota: http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries-meters-accessories/bach2/bach1.html There again you have the issue of investing in this stuff for now, what do you do with it later? It becomes redundant and not very valuable on the used market. But if it's what needs doing then you accept the cost as a part of the whole.

i was thinking i do aquaponics and need power for my pumps 75 -100w if i got a 12v sys i could transfer it to the aquaponics and take the load off the house sys right? also i will have a booster pump going in to feed water to the goats and chickens should i just make all of that 12v?

Cariboocoot

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Shawn-H wrote: »

i was thinking i do aquaponics and need power for my pumps 75 -100w if i got a 12v sys i could transfer it to the aquaponics and take the load off the house sys right? also i will have a booster pump going in to feed water to the goats and chickens should i just make all of that 12v?

Well if you can put in a small 12 Volt system now with a plan to make use of it later then it's not a loss.

Shawn-H

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Well if you can put in a small 12 Volt system now with a plan to make use of it later then it's not a loss.

ok should i keep the bats i got or go smaller? all i have is 245w on that ts-60 (they will take it back at a 20% restocking fee. and i have to wait 90 days to get the 80% bk.)

what do you think of this[url] http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002MWC3Z4/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1406143683&sr=8-1&keywords=OutBack+Power+FX3048&condition=used[/url]
as it says it is used.

Cariboocoot

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Shawn-H wrote: »

ok should i keep the bats i got or go smaller? all i have is 245w on that ts-60 (they will take it back at a 20% restocking fee. and i have to wait 90 days to get the 80% bk.)

Well 80% is better than nothing. Although if you bought the MPPT and they sent the PWM instead isn't it their fault? Oh well.

What your 240 Watt panel will do on a PWM controller is the current: about 7.8 Amps. On a 24 Volt system what will happen is the battery will come up in Voltage to where it meets the maximum from the panel after its heat and wiring losses. This is an unpredictable thing as it will be different from one day to another. But 2 Volt loss is not unexpected, meaning the batteries would only reach 28 Volts - just shy of Absorb. Batteries will never finish charging then.

On a 12 Volt system the panel & PWM controller will function like a (7.8 Amps * 17.5 Vmp) 136 Watt panel; the extra power is lost because the higher Voltage can't be converted to usable current by the PWM controller.

Battery size should reflect the available charge current. In this case 78 Amp hours at either 12 or 24 Volts, knowing the 24 Volt will not be brought up to full Absorb Voltage resulting in incomplete charging and a soon-dead battery.

what do you think of this[url] http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002MWC3Z4/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1406143683&sr=8-1&keywords=OutBack+Power+FX3048&condition=used[/url]
as it says it is used.

$700 less than new is good. How trustworthy is the seller? I see only one star rating. Call me suspicious but for an inverter I'd like to see it fire up and work. There would be no guarantee on this, and as tough as OB equipment is someone could have fried it. Then you bought an expensive 67 lbs. paperweight.

Shawn-H

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Well 80% is better than nothing. Although if you bought the MPPT and they sent the PWM instead isn't it their fault? Oh well.

What your 240 Watt panel will do on a PWM controller is the current: about 7.8 Amps. On a 24 Volt system what will happen is the battery will come up in Voltage to where it meets the maximum from the panel after its heat and wiring losses. This is an unpredictable thing as it will be different from one day to another. But 2 Volt loss is not unexpected, meaning the batteries would only reach 28 Volts - just shy of Absorb. Batteries will never finish charging then.

On a 12 Volt system the panel & PWM controller will function like a (7.8 Amps * 17.5 Vmp) 136 Watt panel; the extra power is lost because the higher Voltage can't be converted to usable current by the PWM controller.

Battery size should reflect the available charge current. In this case 78 Amp hours at either 12 or 24 Volts, knowing the 24 Volt will not be brought up to full Absorb Voltage resulting in incomplete charging and a soon-dead battery.



$700 less than new is good. How trustworthy is the seller? I see only one star rating. Call me suspicious but for an inverter I'd like to see it fire up and work. There would be no guarantee on this, and as tough as OB equipment is someone could have fried it. Then you bought an expensive 67 lbs. paperweight.

Yes i will stay with new and 5year warranty is well worth the price diff for me.

what would be my next step? i was thinking about this buy the 3648v outback inverter then 4 cheep walmart 12v 122Ah everstart group 27 or 29 bats. this would sit on the current sys as 12v until i could buy 1 (or 2 if i cant find the match.) panel and then im back up and running on vary lil but better then nothing. then the next purchase is the outback FLEXmax 80. unless you can think of a better charge controller for what i'm doing?????

Cariboocoot

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Shawn-H wrote: »

Yes i will stay with new and 5year warranty is well worth the price diff for me.

what would be my next step? i was thinking about this buy the 3648v outback inverter then 4 cheep walmart 12v 122Ah everstart group 27 or 29 bats. this would sit on the current sys as 12v until i could buy 1 (or 2 if i cant find the match.) panel and then im back up and running on vary lil but better then nothing. then the next purchase is the outback FLEXmax 80. unless you can think of a better charge controller for what i'm doing?????

I don't think you should go for those Everstart batteries. For one thing you'd have four in parallel @ 12 Volts, which has its own problems. For another on a 3.6kW inverter they'd be very small indeed: total loads over 1kW would create significant Voltage drop even on a 48 Volt system. And you'd only have a couple of kilowatt hours of stored power. In short you'd probably be frustrated with the performance and buy all new batteries when you go to 48 Volts.

Then there's the charging issue: 122 Amps hours * 4 is 488, meaning you'd need to supply nearly 50 Amps of current @ 12 Volts to charge them. Without a big charger or full-size controller & 760 Watts of panel it wouldn't work well (premature battery death). That would be two more 240 Watt panels to go with the one you've got. (BTW the 240 Watt mon SolarWorld has fairly similar specs to the panel you already have: http://www.solar-electric.com/solar-panels-mounts-kits-accessories/solarpanels/hiposopa/solarworld-sunmodule-sw240-monocrystalline-black-solar-panel.html)

Problem is I can see at least six different ways of doing this but only you can decide which best suits your needs.

Shawn-H

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

I don't think you should go for those Everstart batteries. For one thing you'd have four in parallel @ 12 Volts, which has its own problems. For another on a 3.6kW inverter they'd be very small indeed: total loads over 1kW would create significant Voltage drop even on a 48 Volt system. And you'd only have a couple of kilowatt hours of stored power. In short you'd probably be frustrated with the performance and buy all new batteries when you go to 48 Volts.

Then there's the charging issue: 122 Amps hours * 4 is 488, meaning you'd need to supply nearly 50 Amps of current @ 12 Volts to charge them. Without a big charger or full-size controller & 760 Watts of panel it wouldn't work well (premature battery death). That would be two more 240 Watt panels to go with the one you've got. (BTW the 240 Watt mon SolarWorld has fairly similar specs to the panel you already have: http://www.solar-electric.com/solar-panels-mounts-kits-accessories/solarpanels/hiposopa/solarworld-sunmodule-sw240-monocrystalline-black-solar-panel.html)

Problem is I can see at least six different ways of doing this but only you can decide which best suits your needs.

i was thinking of making the difrence (short bat charge) with the gen like you said.

mike95490

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

THERE IS NO POWER FOR 3/4 OF A MILE WILL COST 23,000 PLUS A MONTHLY POWER BILL.

Honestly, install the grid. The size of system you are talking about, will cost at least that much. And replacement batteries every 5-10 years

Generator. You are looking at lots of run time in winter. You will burn fuel. Look into a water cooled diesel. It will cost $$ but otherwise, you are looking at burning out a genset on a yearly basis with cheap ones. Depends if you want a stack of dead generators in backyard.

inverter with Generator Support. I've heard the outback does not implement true generator support. I have a XW6048 and gen support DOES work, it tracks a loose governor on a generator, and loads come and go, and the charging / assist modulates along with it. Small inverter generators do not manage gen support well, surges crash the inverter-gen before the main Inverter can take up the load. I have a 3KW generator, and it's been fine for several years.

Induction cooktop is nice, if you have the solar, but better to burn propane stove, then to burn fuel in generator just for cooking (yes, you get some opportunity charging when you do that, but it's still a pain.)

Shawn-H

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

mike95490 wrote: »

Honestly, install the grid. The size of system you are talking about, will cost at least that much. And replacement batteries every 5-10 years

Generator. You are looking at lots of run time in winter. You will burn fuel. Look into a water cooled diesel. It will cost $$ but otherwise, you are looking at burning out a genset on a yearly basis with cheap ones. Depends if you want a stack of dead generators in backyard.

inverter with Generator Support. I've heard the outback does not implement true generator support. I have a XW6048 and gen support DOES work, it tracks a loose governor on a generator, and loads come and go, and the charging / assist modulates along with it. Small inverter generators do not manage gen support well, surges crash the inverter-gen before the main Inverter can take up the load. I have a 3KW generator, and it's been fine for several years.

Induction cooktop is nice, if you have the solar, but better to burn propane stove, then to burn fuel in generator just for cooking (yes, you get some opportunity charging when you do that, but it's still a pain.)

don't have the $25,000 even if i wanted to and its a lil over half that to serve my needs??????


20 x Astronergy 305 Watt Solar Panel 6100w $5,185.00
OutBack FP1-4 / 3600 Watt Pre-Wired GVFX3648 Inverter System / FP1-GVFX3648 $3,550.00
16 x Centennial GC2200 6V 220Ah @120 each $1,920 (8-10 years) or
walmart everstart maxx 12v 122Ah @100 each $800 (2 years max)*
Wiring $800 ish
shipping 358.20
total $11,828.2
total $10,708.2*

power needs

max daily needs: summer
2 x laptop 140w 10/hour = 1400w/hours per day.
t.v. 190w 8/hour = 1520w/hours per day.
xbox 140w 4/hours = 560w/hours per day.
surround receiver 240w 2/hours = 480w/hours per day.
subwoofer 50w 2/hour = 100w/hours per day.
swamp cooler 690w x 6/hours 4140w/hours per day
chest freezer 35w x 24/hours 840w/hours per day.
mis lighting 80w x 6/hours 480w/hours per day.
total daily is 9280w

normal daily needs: summer
2 x laptop 140w 10/hour = 1400w/hours per day.
t.v. 190w 6/hour = 1140w/hours per day.
swamp cooler 690w x 6/hours 4140w/hours per day
chest freezer 35w x 24/hours 840w/hours per day.
mis lighting 80w x 6/hours 480w/hours per day.
total daily is 8000w

max daily needs: winter
2 x laptop 140w 10/hour = 1400w/hours per day.
t.v. 190w 4/hour = 760w/hours per day.
xbox 140w 2/hours = 280w/hours per day.
surround receiver 240w 2/hours = 480w/hours per day.
subwoofer 50w 2/hour = 100w/hours per day.
chest freezer 35w x 24/hours 840w/hours per day.
mis lighting 80w x 8/hours 640w/hours per day.
total daily is 4260w

normal daily needs: winter
2 x laptop 140w 10/hour = 1400w/hours per day.
t.v. 190w 4/hour = 760w/hours per day.
chest freezer 35w x 24/hours 840w/hours per day.
mis lighting 80w x 8/hours 640w/hours per day.
total daily is 3640w

Blackcherry04

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

mike95490 wrote: »

inverter with Generator Support. I've heard the outback does not implement true generator support.

I think ( know ) you heard wrong, I use it everyday, it's seamless. Must have been someone on that other forum.

ZoNiE

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Hope you didn't think I was being mean. It wasn't the intent. I was just stating that sometimes Kids don't realize what stuff costs, Wait till they are in their 20's, THEN they get it. D'oh! Trying to give you some ideas...

$23K is a lot for 3/4 mile, but it doesn't surprise me. Are there any other people you are adjacent to who would split the cost, even though it would be higher for more parties, more cost split more ways is less overall. My FIL had this same issue near the Grand Canyon. Four property owners went in and put the pole in the corner of the lots. Some utilities will allow the meter at the pole, then you do the rest yourself, but to code, naturally, if allowed.

Shawn-H

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

ZoNiE wrote: »

Hope you didn't think I was being mean. It wasn't the intent. I was just stating that sometimes Kids don't realize what stuff costs, Wait till they are in their 20's, THEN they get it. D'oh! Trying to give you some ideas...

$23K is a lot for 3/4 mile, but it doesn't surprise me. Are there any other people you are adjacent to who would split the cost, even though it would be higher for more parties, more cost split more ways is less overall. My FIL had this same issue near the Grand Canyon. Four property owners went in and put the pole in the corner of the lots. Some utilities will allow the meter at the pole, then you do the rest yourself, but to code, naturally, if allowed.

we are the only house and the only piece of property for 2 miles(the rest are property investors not developers they are not interested and spending money to improve the property). its cheaper for me to just put it in the system I have it down to about $2.50 per watt and at 14 cents a kilowatt/Hour on average and the 33 percent tax credit I'm looking at a pay back in the year. and I dont have to pay the $25,000.,something alot of you guys forget or have not noticed is that most of my power needs hard during the day and I have very few mandatory power needs the only thing that has to keep running that's an absolute necessity is the freezer this lowers my cost for batteries and the cost of replacement batteries making solar over the next 20 to 30 years a much more practical and cost effective means of power delivery out here

Blackcherry04

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

One thing I havn't seen discussed is Racking for your Panels, it's not exactly not a no cost Item. Is it a ground mount or on a roof ?? If it's a roof, what type roof is it ?? You have a lot of heat to deal with, if it's asphalt shingles it should have flashings and standoff's. Some just screw down L brackets with caulk, I guess it works, but it might not for the long haul and you still have the heat issue. 20 Panels is a big up lift load on a roof, you don't want to lose your panels in the first wind storm.

Shawn-H

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

One thing I havn't seen discussed is Racking for your Panels, it's not exactly not a no cost Item. Is it a ground mount or on a roof ?? If it's a roof, what type roof is it ?? You have a lot of heat to deal with, if it's asphalt shingles it should have flashings and standoff's. Some just screw down L brackets with caulk, I guess it works, but it might not for the long haul and you still have the heat issue. 20 Panels is a big up lift load on a roof, you don't want to lose your panels in the first wind storm.

I am going to hand make racks for them out of 14 gauge steel studs and 6 by 6 timbers that I harvest from my land I already own the steel studs and C-channel. I will need a few odds and ends but it will only be a hey couple 100 dollars max. I am putting the right next to my other solar shed so that's not an expensive either there will be $500 an extra wire to run from the Outback panel to my home.

mike95490

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

I think ( know ) you heard wrong, I use it everyday, it's seamless. Must have been someone on that other forum.

Your direct experience trumps my hearsay.


BUT .....
here are some other threads regarding that:
http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=467&hilit=g+inverter+generator+support
(can't track a small genset and drops it completely)

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=147420.0 (scroll down to reply #10)
(XW will track nearly any decent genset, and wider margins can be programmed if needed)

so in summary, a surge load will knock a inverter genset out for a second. They have no "rotating mass" to deal with surges. So a surge (fridge motor starting) will disqualify an inverter genset, leaving the inverter to handle all loads till the genset is re-qualified. Outback has very tight, nearly utility grade tolerances on their genset qualification and drops smaller gensets. I also recall hearing some issues with the way the charger sequencing loads the genset, but I didn't pay much attention to it because I don't have outback.

And there are different outback models that may or may not have gen support in them. And with my 650 rpm genset, the XW handles the power surge pulse just fine.

CDN_VT

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Cleaned . & adjusted .

mike95490

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Shawn-H wrote: »

i was thinking i do aquaponics and need power for my pumps 75 -100w if i got a 12v sys i could transfer it to the aquaponics and take the load off the house sys right? also i will have a booster pump going in to feed water to the goats and chickens should i just make all of that 12v?

75-100w is still real power and has to come from somewhere. 1 larger system is simpler, 2 smaller systems is more redundant.
AC pumps and DC pumps - most small AC pumps are brushless, if you go for DC pumps, look into brush life, and if they are replaceable.

If your house power fails, you will know it, if the goat water fails, how long before you notice that

Blackcherry04

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

mike95490 wrote: »

Your direct experience trumps my hearsay.


BUT .....
here are some other threads regarding that:
http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=467&hilit=g+inverter+generator+support
(can't track a small genset and drops it completely)

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=147420.0 (scroll down to reply #10)
(XW will track nearly any decent genset, and wider margins can be programmed if needed)

so in summary, a surge load will knock a inverter genset out for a second. They have no "rotating mass" to deal with surges. So a surge (fridge motor starting) will disqualify an inverter genset, leaving the inverter to handle all loads till the genset is re-qualified. Outback has very tight, nearly utility grade tolerances on their genset qualification and drops smaller gensets. I also recall hearing some issues with the way the charger sequencing loads the genset, but I didn't pay much attention to it because I don't have outback.

And there are different outback models that may or may not have gen support in them. And with my 650 rpm genset, the XW handles the power surge pulse just fine.

I'll let the XW Operators manual speak for it's self. 2 Seconds ?? true generator support.

Gen Support ( pg 2-13 )

There is AC input from the generator, and the Xantrex XW Series Inverter/Charger is
supporting the generator by supplying additional power to the critical loads.
The Xantrex XW Series Inverter/Charger supports the generator (or other power source
connected to the generator [default AC2] input) when the AC load current drawn from
the generator exceeds the GenSup Amps setting for 1 to 2 seconds.
The Xantrex XW Series Inverter/Charger uses stored DC capacity to load share with
the generator until the total AC load current (generator plus Xantrex XW Series Inverter/
Charger output) drops by 2 amps plus 10 per cent of the GenSup Amps setting for
0.5 seconds.
For example, if GenSup Amps is set to 10 amps, the Xantrex XW Series Inverter/
Charger starts to support when the load exceeds 10 amps for 2 seconds and stops
when it drops more than 3 amps below the

wellbuilt

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Here's a kind of "get started" package:

Array: six 245 Watt SolarWorld panels @ $252 each = $1512 for 1470 Watts. Wired as two parallel strings of three in series. Should output about 24 Amps @ 48 Volts. No combiner box/breakers needed as there's only two parallel strings.
Controller: MidNite Kid 30 Amp MPPT $285
Batteries: Eight GC2's, your $120 price is good (especially if local) $960. Gives you up to 5kW hours @ 50% DOD (+/- depending on the system over-all efficiency).
VFX3648 inverter: $1,770
MATE II: $214

Caribo This looks like a great way to start out , Im off grid now, and just sitting in the dark under a tree .
I will have a old travel trailer on site next week to start my house , but still no power or water .
We have been moving at a snails pace . Great post guys

Cariboocoot

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

CDN_VT wrote: »

So that's where all my post go.
I didn't derail , I read and gave a post opinion.
You Sir (Coot) are to quick to delete , We have had this problem a few times before , but now I see.
I call is in order to the Host.
VT .

I spend time trying to see the replys , But can't figure where the post has gone , Your the NSA of this forum .

EDIT ADD :
Please drop the Solar Superstar .. I never asked for it to go from Panda to Solar Superstar .
I know MY level .

I moderate the forum in accordance with the guidelines set down by the host.
Rarely have I ever had to delete one of your posts, despite the consistently low-level of comprehensible content.
The 'descriptions' under user names are automatically generated by the software and increase with post count, not any evaluation of poster's ability done by a real human being.

If you are dissatisfied with the way the forum is run, there are other venues you can visit.

Photowhit

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

The 'descriptions' under user names are automatically generated by the software and increase with post count, not any evaluation of poster's ability done by a real human being.

You can also edit that, under forum actions drop down menu > Edit Profile > Custom User Title:

My post was deleted as well, though the offending remark was not.

Shawn-H

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

wellbuilt wrote: »

Caribo This looks like a great way to start out , Im off grid now, and just sitting in the dark under a tree .
I will have a old travel trailer on site next week to start my house , but still no power or water .
We have been moving at a snails pace . Great post guys

that is a great starter system I've decided not to go with it due to finding more money in my budget I should have right around $10,000 in 8 months so I won't be going with a larger system.
I commend you for doing what we're going to do I was going to B sitting under a tree with absolutely nothing but wen we found this pizza property with a house in a well and forty acres for the same price it would cost for me to put in a well we jumped on it.I've taught aquaponics and permaculture for years this is the first time I've ever had to put it in to use on a full-scale personal level.thank you all for all your great advice

Cariboocoot

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Photowhit wrote: »

You can also edit that, under forum actions drop down menu > Edit Profile > Custom User Title:

My post was deleted as well, though the offending remark was not.

Which offending remark? Did I miss one?

I tell you between the moderator shortage and abundance of spammers and scammers it can be a real challenge cleaning out the dross.

Shawn-H

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Ok here i am again I got a better small gen (780w) and plugged in my kilowatt meter (at the geni) for 24 hours and with no swamp cooler or blower fan going i only used 4322w-hr's. im so lost. i did this very thing in the city before i left and came up wayyyyy higher. I have done this (an energy audit) for at least 12 people who know live off grid happily. How is my useage so much smaller here? what am I missing? I am not running the fridge but i am running tools 1260 saw and compressor(saw and compressor ran from the inverter and used the gen to recharge the bats to full.)???? im lost happy its lower but lost.

Blackcherry04

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

I thought I'd post this to show what True Generator Support is to me. It seems to be a loose term as posted back and forth on Internet forums and it allows a lot of misinterpretations.

This a Outback GFX 1312 using Generator Support with a Honda EU 2000, the ACin amps are set to 10 amps. I am using a 1,400 watt Keurig coffee maker as the load. The Generator Support is Immediate, there is NO delay of 2 seconds, the generator does not drop out and fault. It is a seamless operation. You will see it transition as the load is dropped to charge for a moment as it raises the Battery voltage back to Float and return to all pass through. It is fast, it's done in milliseconds, don't blink or you might miss it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOLAIRe9J3Q

Cariboocoot

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Once again Outback proves its stuff.

Who would wait two seconds for gen support? Even the VFX will switch seamlessly between gen and inverter faster than that: not so much as a blip.

Blackcherry04

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Once again Outback proves its stuff.

Who would wait two seconds for gen support? Even the VFX will switch seamlessly between gen and inverter faster than that: not so much as a blip.

I can tell what I see out of the Xantrex system, during the 2 second delay it seems to get confused if it's going to support the load or take the load and drop the generator, then it starts to charge, that adds insult to injury and yes the generator is dropped / faulted. I don't have a XW, but the new SW's have the same system and I can't get them to work like the Outbacks do. Another problem is that you cannot set the incoming breaker amps in small enough increments. ( 5,10,15,20,25 & on )

I'll grant that the quality of the incoming power has to be good, crummy in gives you crummy out.

mike95490

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

...... Another problem is that you cannot set the incoming breaker amps in small enough increments. ( 5,10,15,20,25 & on )...

With the SCP, I can set 1-60 amps. with the Combox I can go in 0.1 amp increments. For running my system, I've settled on AC2 = 30A, and gen support = 14A Battery charge = 30% of 1,000a bank, so that gives me an even 30a of charge (@60V =1800watts) leaving plenty for the loads. Now the XW, from the factory, supports and expects, 240VAC split phase, just like 95% of USA residential grid power. If you only have a 120V generator, it won't qualify it unless you have an autotransformer, or have done the 120V only field mod.
If your generator cannot maintain voltage in a load surge, it will be disconnected.

I've also got a more technical report I'll paste from my email archives from when I was dialing in my system.
Knowing how it works, and why, is useful when setting up an installation:

The XW is VERY fast in how it reacts to out-of-spec power output from the genset - it will react and prevent out-of-spec power from "hitting" the load within ~17-19 ms.

What happens is that when the load exceeds the Gen Support setting the XW will surge load the generator for the first second to 150% of the Gen Support amps setting. Most generators can handle this quite easily, although there will be considerable drop in the voltage, but not so much on freq. The XW has to do this because it is in pass-thru to loads with (usually) the charger active. It has to switch from charging to inverting as the load exceeds the Gen Supp Amps setting.

During the second or so that it takes to evaluate whether the surge was from something short and simple like a 'fridge compressor starting, or an an actual generator overload condition, the voltage from the generator will drop below the acceptable limit and then recover. It is so fast that you can only capture it with a Fluke meter that has the capture feature enabled on it. But the XW is faster so it disconnects the genset because the voltage dropped out of spec during the initial surge load. This is because the rotor in the genset is operating at a particular flux level for the present load, the surge hits and the AVR can't react fast enough to increase the field current to the rotor to increase the flux in the core.

Gen Support on split-phase power is a lot more tricky than with 120V single phase. It will use the Gen Support amps setting based on the highest loaded leg with split-phase. So if someone is setting up a system to use Gen Support on a regular basis with a small generator I would highly recommend considering a balancing transformer for the inverter and generator to get peak performance from it. The nature of split-phase power is such that is is possible to leg overload a genset and force Gen Support when the generator itself is only really 50%, or slightly better, loaded. Inverters can handle this with no problem - generators can't. So the transformer makes a huge difference for both.

Blackcherry04

Re: just bought an off the grid home water is well and power is/was soler.

mike95490 wrote: »

With the SCP, I can set 1-60 amps.

Yep, thats exactly how they act, Thanks for posting it. Like I said, i don't have a XW, but the New SW's do the same thing, it's like, it works, But it only works if. Now I see why CO runs two transformers.