Need help wiring 12v solar project

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  • unseenone
    unseenone Solar Expert Posts: 61 ✭
    #32
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    Maybe there is a member in your area that can help. It seems like finding someone deals with anything besides a whole house around here are slim & none. If nothing else works, you can PM me and I'll give you my number.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #33
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project
    solarpowernovice wrote: »
    can I hook up my regular 12v automotive charger to the wall and then series 2 of the golf cart batteries and charge them for a few hours? My regular charger has a 5amp and 10amp deep cycle switch on it, but it has clamp on connectors.

    Yes. It may not be perfect but it's better than leaving them uncharged. Auto chargers tend to go up to only about 14 Volts or so (pretty wide variety between them) which is not Absorb for a set of Trojans (nor has any sustain-at-Voltage timer) but will keep them above the SOC where sulphation sets in.
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #34
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    I met the guy who builds and sells these portable 12v solar generators http://www.sunrnr.com/ and he builds them about 10 miles away from me... I'm hoping he will help me, but if not I will take you up on that unseenone, thanks. I guess until then I will charge the batteries with my regular charger to keep them from sulfating.

    1 last question, can I hook the clamp on connectors of my automotive charger to the posts on the batteries? no issue here? I just want to make sure. Thank you all for trying to help me.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #35
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    "Solar generators", how do I dislike thee? Let me count the ways!
    The terminology is incorrect, the battery capacity usually ineffectively small, the power claims inversely large, the panel attachments insufficient, the impression given by the brochures misleading ...

    Not impugning that one in particular but there have been many similar units discussed on the forum. I don't recall any of them standing up well to scrutiny. Too often it is a tiny battery and a claim to run a refrigerator for a day - based on 100% discharge. Then they thrown in a couple of panels inadequate to harvest that full power usage and couple it with an inverter of huge output capacity (like 5kW from 12 Volts) to impress the public which doesn't know the secret of the Power Formula.

    Somehow prepackaged stuff just never seems to be right for what you want to do, despite the claims.

    Figure out how much power you need to supply and design the system to supply it. That works.
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #36
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    I was going to buy one of them off of him but then I decided to try and do it myself, because I realized what you just said after doing some research. I just hope this guy will help me/can help me.... I'm going to go put 2 of my batteries in series then hook the clamps of my automotive charger onto the batteries open terminals - and +.
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #37
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    If there is a member in my area who can help me please feel free to contact me. I live in Staunton Virginia, Just send me a message thanks.
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #38
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    What type of multi meter do you suggest i buy? just any digital one?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #39
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    A few of us have had good use with this $60 AC/DC Current Clamp DMM from Sears.

    Couple of warnings...

    The thermocouple plug (on the thermal probe cable) broke. Did not bother me, I use an IR thermometer most of the time.

    The other is that the DC current "ZERO" button works different than any other meter I have used--It does work fine--But you have to understand how to properly zero the meter (DC Current meters drift from zero amps over a few minutes and need to be reset).

    Basically. Push the ZERO button until "zero" is off (blank) on the LCD. With the clamp closed and no wires inside--Push the ZERO button "LCD should say "zero"). Now connect the clamp over the (one wire) you want to measure current on (do not put both + and - cables through the clamp--The sum of the current is "zero" and that is what the meter will display).

    Note that this is NOT an true RMS reading meter... Less accurate at measuring current out of MSW inverters and such--But is good enough for debugging a solar power system.

    There was a cheap one at Radio Shack, but one or two people here did not like it.

    You can go with Fluke for $300+ for their meter--They are very nice and accurate. And there are some clamp meters that have a "peak reading" function. This can be very nice to find to find the peak surge current for starting motors/AC inverter/etc. Regular meters only read about once per second--And miss those high current surges.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #40
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project
    solarpowernovice wrote: »
    What type of multi meter do you suggest i buy? just any digital one?

    Have a look at its functions first.
    Here's a cheap no name one I bought at Princess Auto for $10 a few years back. It has a lot of functions and works perfectly well. No need to buy a $400 Fluke just to get one system working.
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #41
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    Should I charge the batteries until the green light on the automotive charger comes on? The hand is at 100% but the light is not green yet... I have battery cables with a mismatch of 3/8th hole in the lugs and 5/16th because the battery place that cut/crimped my wires diddn't have enough 5/16th, could this be causing my problem with the solar not working? I'm going to buy that multimeter at sears.
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  • unseenone
    unseenone Solar Expert Posts: 61 ✭
    #42
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    You really need to diagnose your issues by the numbers. I don't think the lug sizes should make a difference at this point.

    I don't think you're charger is "smart" so you can get an idea of the charge state by taking the battery charger off, and checking the voltage at the terminals.

    Also, you can check each 6 volt battery from it's respective terminal. If you are getting a radically different 6 volt (or less) reading, then maybe there is a problem with that battery.

    PM Me with your e-mail, phone # and when you'll be free and I'll call you, and we can correspond via e-mail.
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #43
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    Thanks to unseenones help I have my solar panels charging my batteries right now :D Can anyone tell me if the classic 150 needs to be programmed to which type of battery its charging, or does it know automatically? I selected solar mode, then 12v then put the date in and then the charging parameters for my batteries, but i never saw anything about what type of batteries they are in the menu(AGM/FLOODED/ETC....) does anyone know how i find this setting in the MNGP? Is there some kind of jumper I need to set???
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #44
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    you want to check that the default settings 'fit' your specific battery. They are probably OK but may need fine tuning.
    Check the makers website for the charging parameters...

    to set press the lower right soft key to enter the settings, middle L or R key moves the cursor, press enter for ''Charging' to set the Absorb and Float. It's all in the manual...

    hth
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • unseenone
    unseenone Solar Expert Posts: 61 ✭
    #45
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    I'm not familiar with his controller. I glanced through the manual and it referenced jumpers for the 150 without a panel, and I wasn't sure if the one with a panel also has jumpers or it can be done through the menu.

    You definitely need to specify the battery type one way or another. I e-mailed you a link to the manual. You might read through it again. Hopefully someone here can answer how to set the battery type.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #46
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project
    unseenone wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with his controller. I glanced through the manual and it referenced jumpers for the 150 without a panel, and I wasn't sure if the one with a panel also has jumpers or it can be done through the menu.

    You definitely need to specify the battery type one way or another. I e-mailed you a link to the manual. You might read through it again. Hopefully someone here can answer how to set the battery type.

    The panel allows full programming for Voltage set points, Absorb specs, etc. The Classic Lite with no panel has the jumper settings.

    Keep in mind that NO controller gives a flying hippo about battery type: that is just a short-cut (and sometimes inaccurate) way of adjusting the charge parameters that uses preset default values for things like Absorb Voltage.
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #47
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    Thanks cariboocoot, I guess thats why I couldnt find the battery type in the MNGP... I found the battery charging parameters and entered them into the Classic and even set the temperature compensation. The only thing is, I checked the battery voltage with a multimeter and it said 12.43 and the classic only lets you change battery voltage by .1 volts, so i had to make it 12.4. I guess this is all the information I need to enter into the classic... But anyway, I will have my batteries fully charged today. They are bulk charging and it says 13.2 volts on the classics MNGP.
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  • unseenone
    unseenone Solar Expert Posts: 61 ✭
    #48
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    I think for the temperature compensation to work, you need to have a temperature sensor installed, correct me if I'm wrong. Also I know your setup is temporary while you sort things out. Don't leave the batteries in the direct sun. If you can't avoid that, then cover them up so the sun doesn't shine on them directly.
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #49
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    Yes, I have a battery temp sensor installed on the charge controller and sitting on top of a battery. The batteries are inside of the cargo trailer that is pretty hot, but the sun is not shining on components or the batteries. Now i just need to figure out how to vent my battery box to the outside... Can I use just a regular computer fan and extend the wire on it some how to reach the charge controller? Right now i just have the doors open on the trailer to vent it out.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #50
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    Many charge controllers have two temperature sensors--One in the unit itself, a second a remote battery temperature sensor (option for some).

    If no remote battery temperature sensor is used, the batteries and the charge controller should be in the same environment (i.e., controller not in a hot closet and the batteries in a cold basement, as an example).

    For some controllers, like the MorningStar 15 amp MPPT charge controller, the unit is so small that the internal temperature sensor gets "hot" just from the controller's operation--For optimum charging, this unit really needs the "optional" remote battery temperature sensor or it can under charge/slow charge the battery bank (cold batteries need higher charging voltage, ~-0.005 volts per degree C per cell).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #51
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project
    unseenone wrote: »
    I think for the temperature compensation to work, you need to have a temperature sensor installed, correct me if I'm wrong. Also I know your setup is temporary while you sort things out. Don't leave the batteries in the direct sun. If you can't avoid that, then cover them up so the sun doesn't shine on them directly.

    Everthing is installed in the cargo trailer on the wall and the batteries are on the floor. I'm guessing the Classic has built in temp sensor and the external battery sensor because I installed the external one that has a long blue cord, it came with the controller. Can anyone tell me how to use a computer fan as a venting fan on the battery box? I need to extend the cable and install it to the aux port on the classic. any ideas on how to extend the cable?
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #52
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    My batteries are at 13.4v now and still in bulk. I set float to 13.4 in settings because thats what the battery manufacturer website says to do. Is this normal that its still in bulk, or should it be in float right now?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #53
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project
    solarpowernovice wrote: »
    My batteries are at 13.4v now and still in bulk. I set float to 13.4 in settings because thats what the battery manufacturer website says to do. Is this normal that its still in bulk, or should it be in float right now?

    Did it ever get to Absorb Voltage?
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #54
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Did it ever get to Absorb Voltage?


    No, not yet. Absorb is 15.3v. When I checked batteries before i turned on system today they were 12.43v on the multimeter and the panel has been in direct sunlight all day. I noticed another thing as well, in the Classics display theres nowhere to set bulk charge voltage and my battery manufacturer says Bulk Charge Voltage (2.41 VPC) 14.46v. http://www.batteries-faq.com/activekb/questions.php?questionid=1 heres the link im getting my battery parameters from " Charging recommendations for 6-volt deep cycle batteries. GC2-XHD, GC2-HD, GC2-RD " which is what i have.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #55
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    Couple of notes about using a venting fan.

    First is that the fan may draw more than the AUX connection can provide (typically 200mA), in which case you need to use a relay and wire the fan through that: AUX power relay, relay closes to provide fan power from battery. It would be a relay like this: http://www.solar-electric.com/regest12vosi.html

    Second you have to program the Classic accordingly so that AUX is active under the right stage, i.e. Absorb. That is when the most gassing occurs.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #56
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project
    solarpowernovice wrote: »
    No, not yet. Absorb is 15.3v. When I checked batteries before i turned on system today they were 12.43v on the multimeter and the panel has been in direct sunlight all day producing 200 watts on MNGP

    It will not go to Float if it hasn't been through Absorb.
    Note that even if you provide an external charging source the controller will follow; it doesn't care why the batteries reach 14.8 Volts (or whatever) just so long as they do which is what triggers the stage.

    12.43 Volts is pretty far down the scale; they may need a lot of charging.
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #57
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    I'm in the booklet for the batteries http://interstatebatteries.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Marine-RV_DeepCycleBooklet_PN200004_Printable.pdf (PAGE 4) and its saying 12.75 is fully charged and 12.45 is 75%. I just figured they'd be close to 100% by now
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #58
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project
    solarpowernovice wrote: »
    I'm in the booklet for the batteries http://interstatebatteries.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Marine-RV_DeepCycleBooklet_PN200004_Printable.pdf (PAGE 4) and its saying 12.75 is fully charged and 12.45 is 75%. I just figured they'd be close to 100% by now

    That is resting Voltage; not active Voltage. If it sat overnight with no current going in or out and read 12.45 that would be 75% SOC. While charging that Voltage indicates there's a ways to go as it needs to be brought up over 14 and held there a while.
    What is worse is that the last 20% takes a long time to achieve because as the Voltage goes up the current goes down ... and the time drags on.
    This is why we try to get that 10% peak current: so that from 25% DOD you can achieve full charge in 4 good sun hours.
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  • unseenone
    unseenone Solar Expert Posts: 61 ✭
    #59
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    How Many Watts or Amps do you think it was getting, can you check the log?

    It seems like, that's the voltage they have been at for a couple of days, and even with the battery charger connected, it has not gone up. I wonder if there is something wrong with the batteries, or wiring, or there are losses from the cable.

    Measure the voltage at the batteries, and also at the post on your charge controller.

    Post pictures of your battery setup and your charge controller showing the wiring.

    Describe the cables you used to connect your batteries to the charge controller ie: AWG 4, etc. What size cables did you use to connect the batteries to each other?
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  • solarpowernovice
    solarpowernovice Solar Expert Posts: 134 ✭✭
    #60
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    it was 205 watts earlier around 1pm and like 15 amps and i only had 1 270 watt panel hooked up. I'll have to find my camera to take pictures im not sure how to upload them to my computer from my cellphone. I think the wire run is too long... I have like 40 feet of cable for the 1 panel, I guess I should've hooked up 2 or all 3 of the panels today.
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  • unseenone
    unseenone Solar Expert Posts: 61 ✭
    #61
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    Re: Need help wiring 12v solar project

    I would be more concerned with the wire run to the batteries at this point. That is where you could get a big discrepancy in voltages at your solar charge controller, versus the batteries, if there is one.

    You can e-mail me the pictures, and I'll post them for you. Or, you can try to click the "insert image" 3rd from last in the row, and see if you can select a picture to upload.
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