Generator fuel consumption?

stmar

I am looking at generators and need some real world input. Is the Honda really that much more fuel efficient and quiet than most of the generics? I am looking at the 2 - 4 kw models, specifically the EU2000 Honda vs. like the Cabela's Champion and other generic types. If the specs are believable the Honda uses about 1/3 of the fuel and is much quieter, 53 vs 68 db. The Honda is 3 times the price and less kw but you have to look at all aspects and not just the initial price. Any experiences you would like to share would be appreciated, first time generator buyer here.
P.S. This will be used to rarely charge battery bank and more likely used for intermittent projects around the property so main factor is it should be dependable when needed.

Cariboocoot

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

The main difference in fuel consumption and noise is between the standard "fixed RPM" generators and the variable-throttle inverter-generators. The Honda EU2000i is an inverter-generator and uses very little fuel. The Champion is a standard generator, running at one RPM (+/-) to maintain frequency and Voltage.

I have both types and can tell you for a fact that the over-all fuel consumption and noise level of the Honda (or any good quality I-G) is much better than the conventional generator. The main difference is in the reduced RPM possible at low power demands.

As for reliability, I've got over 6,000 hours on a EU1000i and the EU2000i is coming close to that. So far the repairs have been none. Can't say the same about the low-priced standard generator.

Be sure to compare the actual Watt ratings. A lot of companies stick the surge Watts on as a label. Regrettably this includes Honda: the '2000' model only produces 1600 Watt continuous.

There is a significant difference in price. You can but three conventional generators for the price of one Honda around here. It's up to you to decide whether the benefits warrant that expenditure or not.

BB.

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

If you are running your genset at 50% or more of rated power--All of the major generators are going to have similar KWH/Gallon output (given the same fuel: i.e., Diesel to Diesel, gasoline to gasoline, propane to propane comparisons).

In fact, the inverter-generators, because they go through the AC to DC to AC conversion are somewhat less efficient as they approach 100% rated output. And a typical "cheap noise maker" may even be somewhat more fuel effiicent.

However, other than charging battery banks or running an electric heater continuously (which most non-commercial gensets will overheat and die if running at 100% of rated output for hours on end)--Most people have variable loads (washing machine, shop tools, etc.) which cycle on and off or even vary their load current when running.

So, most people are usually running at less than 50% of generator capacity most of the time, and the Honda/Yamaha inverter generators are usually much quieter and fuel efficient when running these types of loads.

However, an inverter-generator may not have good surge current when operated on "eco mode" (near idle at low average loads)... And they don't usually have a lot of surge current anyway.

So--Go back and look at your loads. Find the smallest generator that will run them (step one). Personally, I hate noisy generators so I really go for those that are quiet (Honda eu family is quiet--sort of like standing next to a Honda motorcycle idling). Great for portable applications.

If you have a fixed application and will have a battery bank and AC inverter--Then looking at a AC inverter-charger that has "generator support" is a good alternative. Put the generator in a well ventilated shed/behind a berm and only start it when you need the extra power (bad weather, extra loads, etc.). The AC inverter-charger will help support the surge current and the genset will run at relatively high percentage of rated load and help keep the battery bank up.

Talk to these online vendors... They usually have pretty good pricing for their generators and shipping was not bad:

http://www.wisesales.com/generators-1/honda-generators-1.html
www.mayberrys.com/Honda/generators/generators.aspx

A good eu 2000i forum:

eu2000i forum

And I have read good things in the past for Honda parts:

Boats.net

-Bill

westbranch

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

to compare, rent one of each and test them out...

mike95490

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

your inverter & charger will also influence your generator choice, some inverters want 240V, some want 5% freq control, some chargers have good Power Factor, some have lousy.

techntrek

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

BB. wrote: »

...
In fact, the inverter-generators, because they go through the AC to DC to AC conversion are somewhat less efficient as they approach 100% rated output. And a typical "cheap noise maker" may even be somewhat more fuel effiicent....

Actually I ran the numbers on the Honda line a while ago, comparing models using the same engines, inverter vs. standard, and according to their full-load claims the fuel consumption is the same.

Edit: I just did a spot-check on the 6500's and it was .90 vs. .95 gallons/hr.

mike95490

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

I just totaled my spreadsheet for Mar, and get about 1 gallon fuel burned for 7KWh of power. (and lots of hot water)

Your mileage may vary.


Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr

Attachment not found.

Ralph Day

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

Geez Mike, did anyone end up with flat fingers after unloading that beast? Who was the breaks?

Ralph

BB.

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

Boy, that reminds me of the days when a friend and I would move lathes and mills that way.

Hint--Try to find/rent a kneeling trailer. Makes it 10x easier and safer to move equipment like this.

http://www.jacobsentrailer.com/trailers/selma-hydraulic/



The wheels "retract" and there is a hydraulic hand pump on the front of the trailer.

-Bill

jcheil

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

My tests result in about the same as others have explained.
When you are over 50% load, the Honda is going to use almost the same amount of fuel as the non-inverter generators "of the same size".

I did a comparison with a Honda 2000i vs a champion 1400/1800 (non-inverter) and both running a single AC unit the fuel usage was within .1 gallons usage for the entire night. And the champion 1400/1800 is pretty quiet also. Not as quiet as the Honda, but darn close. and only $189 at Tractor Supply. You could buy 1 and 3 spares for the price of the Honda

But do remember that some inverters are REAL picky about the voltage/waveform. I know my VFX3648 always drops the generator input when my fridge starts (but reconnects after it starts). My 3500 non-inverter generator does not have that problem. The smaller non-inverter generators just don't have the HP to keep the voltage/waveform as perfect as the "inverter" needs during big surges like that (even though it will start the fridge fine running by itself - The fridge doesn't seem to care). The inverter generators do not seem to have that problem. It's no big deal for me, nor the inverter, just annoying.

Cariboocoot

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

jcheil wrote: »

But do remember that some inverters are REAL picky about the voltage/waveform. I know my VFX3648 always drops the generator input when my fridge starts (but reconnects after it starts). My 3500 non-inverter generator does not have that problem. The smaller non-inverter generators just don't have the HP to keep the voltage/waveform as perfect as the "inverter" needs during big surges like that (even though it will start the fridge fine running by itself - The fridge doesn't seem to care). The inverter generators do not seem to have that problem. It's no big deal for me, nor the inverter, just annoying.

That's not an inverter problem, that's a generator problem.
Your VFX isn't dropping the gen because of waveform issues; it's dropping it because the 'frige surge exceeds the programmed limits for AC current. If those are set right for the gen in use this means the gen can't handle it. A 3500 Watt generator would have no trouble with a refrigerator, a 1600 Watt inverter like the EU2000i will, especially if being run in eco mode. The inverter-gens can't ramp up quickly enough to handle sudden surges even if they could handle them in non-eco mode.

Mine will handle the 'frige, but not the water pump. If you know the limits you can work around them. For example using a GVFX with its bi-direction AC IN so it can parallel with a small gen for those surges; no dropping of generator input.

jcheil

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

Cariboocoot wrote: »

That's not an inverter problem, that's a generator problem.
Your VFX isn't dropping the gen because of waveform issues; it's dropping it because the 'frige surge exceeds the programmed limits for AC current.

Good point, never thought of that. Because I never ran the fridge from the 1400 before so it was likely it never would have started the fridge to begin with! But I "DID" have to change the setting on the inverter LOW GEN AC VOLTAGE down to 105 volts otherwise when ANY other small-med load hit the generator it would drop. Changing it to 105 fixed that.

mike95490

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

And the combo of inverter and generator can be a major game changer. I use 3 different generators, depending on the plan of the day.

Today, a rainy day, I was hosting a work party, and needed to run power tools in my shop all day. I fired up the Honeywell 2Kw inverter genset, hooked it to the 120-240 step-up transformer, and threw the switch. With the inverter set to pull 1500w from the genset, I ran large power tools, my normal household loads, AND recharged my batteries. HOW ? My inverter has a feature called Generator Support, where if the system loads exceed the programed support level for the generator, the inverter will "Assist" the generator, like a Grid Tie inverter feeding power to the grid. But the big motors are off longer than they are on, and when the inverter was not assisting, any power that was not used for loads, it was charging the batteries.
Apparently, only the Xantrex/Conext inverters implement this correctly, which is a great feature I discovered after I bought my system.

stmar

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

"Apparently, only the Xantrex/Conext inverters implement this correctly, which is a great feature I discovered after I bought my system."
That is a good thing to know, there is a lot of information in their documentation. I had not paid much attention to the generator options on the inverter and when I decided to get one there were so many details to consider and understand. The reason I keep asking questions is to make sure I am reading things right and try not to have a $$$ costly mistake, especially with an out of production inverter like the SW4024, parts and service are hard to find and a long way from rural Wyoming.

Cariboocoot

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

The Outback GVFX will do this too, and without Xantrex's numerous bugs.

stmar

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

When my inverter went out, fried main transformer, I looked at Outback and it looked like a decent product. I was also getting a lot of Magnum sales pitches. By a stroke of luck I was able to find a guy that could repair the SW, he actually found a main transformer which are like hens teeth!!!
What bugs should I be looking out for?

Cariboocoot wrote: »

The Outback GVFX will do this too, and without Xantrex's numerous bugs.

Cariboocoot

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

stmar wrote: »

When my inverter went out, fried main transformer, I looked at Outback and it looked like a decent product. I was also getting a lot of Magnum sales pitches. By a stroke of luck I was able to find a guy that could repair the SW, he actually found a main transformer which are like hens teeth!!!
What bugs should I be looking out for?

Do a lot of reading here about XW6048. Personally I am appalled by the number of software bugs and the difficulty in sorting them out (like paying for the 'dongle' just so you can update the things) as well as the poor customer service reports on Xantrex/Schneider and the functionality quirks that people who like them are willing to put up with.

I used to think quite highly of Xantrex, but I don't anymore.

Blackcherry04

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

With the Magnums I have dealt with, there are some things I didn't like about them. No clue if they are all like this or still this way. The charger output was settable only in 10% increments, ( hard to use on a small generator ) same with the breaker amp setting. ( 5, 15, 20, 25, 30 amps ) Notice : NO 10 amp setting. When it would transfer to generator it would ramp the charger way up, then it would ramp down to the setting. On a small generator it would drop out and never connect unless you shut the charger off manually before connecting the generator. Large generator ( 10 kw + ) , no problem.

Most sellers that do Repairs like them because Magnum will pay them for field service something Xantrex will not do anymore, so they push them.

My current charging scheme is using a pair of Honda EU 2000 's in parallel when needed, most of the time I run one and use a extended charge time. The Honda EU 2000's sweet spot is about 700-800 W with ECO on and let'er run.

BB.

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

A few people (as I recall) over the years have commented that the Magnum's AC Voltage regulation was not very stable across output power range (lights dimming with washing machine agitation, well pump starting, etc.).

Just what I have read--Others with actual experience may say otherwise.

-Bill

topper

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

I have owned and run an XW 4024 for a number of years now. Overall it has worked well for myself, but I have to say that the bugs are beginning to outweigh the "nifty features".. I am seriously considering outback as a replacement when the next set of bugs arrive. Plug n play programming is definitely a selling feature for Outback.

vtmaps

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

topper wrote: »

Plug n play programming is definitely a selling feature for Outback.

Huh? Don't even think about buying an Outback inverter without its control panel (Mate). Outback defaults are extremely unlikely to serve you well.

--vtMaps

topper

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

Yes. A mate 3 is also on the shopping list.

mike95490

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

I'd thought I'd heard that the outback gen support, was a inoperable menu item, it could be turned on, but didn't really work seamlessly. In 4 years of heavy use with the XW, Gateway, and Combox, there are software "quirks", not so much as "bugs". (ie AC maps reads as L1 + L2 added together, but other menus view a breaker as just 1 leg.)

jcheil

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

mike95490 wrote: »

I'd thought I'd heard that the outback gen support, was a inoperable menu item, it could be turned on, but didn't really work seamlessly. In 4 years of heavy use with the XW, Gateway, and Combox, there are software "quirks", not so much as "bugs". (ie AC maps reads as L1 + L2 added together, but other menus view a breaker as just 1 leg.)

From what I read, the gen support on the outback is only for the G model inverters. It does not work (is not available) for the V (off-grid) models. Not sure why they didn't implement it, it would be an awesome feature.

Blackcherry04

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

jcheil wrote: »

From what I read, the gen support on the outback is only for the G model inverters. It does not work (is not available) for the V (off-grid) models. Not sure why they didn't implement it, it would be an awesome feature.

You are correct, it has something to do with the fact the Input is bi-directional and it's ability to synchronize in reverse on the input and pass through. The GFX I have has no issues on my Inverter Generator or 20kw that has a 3% AVR, but it might on a screamer. The Generator Support slips in and out without notice unless your watching the mate. The G models are about the same price, so If I was buying one , I'd go that way and keep the sell disabled as I do.

jcheil

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

The G models are about the same price, so If I was buying one , I'd go that way and keep the sell disabled as I do.

Dang, I didn't realize that the G model could be used off-grid in that way. I "just" bought the VFX3648

Blackcherry04

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

jcheil wrote: »

Dang, I didn't realize that the G model could be used off-grid in that way. I "just" bought the VFX3648

Actually I was going to say something to you, but when you posted about the order, you said you had it on a fast track delivery, so i didn't. It's probably much more useful for me since the GFX is only 1,300 watts, so it dips in and out often as it runs all my kitchen appliances. A 1200 W load from say a toaster would kill the Generator or Inverter alone, but with Gen Support they work together and the refrigerator keeps on trucking. It also gives the Honda EU 2000 the buffer time to increase it's output on a 5000 btu A/C I use at night to cycle on that same sub panel.

It would have helped on your pass through loads though on a small generator.

jcheil

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Actually I was going to say something to you, but when you posted about the order, you said you had it on a fast track delivery, so i didn't. It's probably much more useful for me since the GFX is only 1,300 watts, so it dips in and out often as it runs all my kitchen appliances. A 1200 W load from say a toaster would kill the Generator or Inverter alone, but with Gen Support they work together and the refrigerator keeps on trucking. It also gives the Honda EU 2000 the buffer time to increase it's output on a 5000 btu A/C I use at night to cycle on that same sub panel.

It would have helped on your pass through loads though on a small generator.

Yeah, when I run my little 1400w generator, the inverter drops the generator when my fridge starts. But that is ok because it just kicks back in 30 seconds later. So it is working well, but I could see how it would be nice to have that gen support to prevent the dropping (although I have a feeling the 1400 has such crappy freq/voltage that the G inverter might not even play well with it to begin with). Lucky for me, I rarely need to use the generator. Think I only used it once or twice in the past month.

Blackcherry04

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

jcheil wrote: »

Yeah, when I run my little 1400w generator, the inverter drops the generator when my fridge starts. But that is ok because it just kicks back in 30 seconds later. So it is working well, but I could see how it would be nice to have that gen support to prevent the dropping (although I have a feeling the 1400 has such crappy freq/voltage that the G inverter might not even play well with it to begin with). Lucky for me, I rarely need to use the generator. Think I only used it once or twice in the past month.

That might be a issue you can play with in the Mate settings. On the Gen limits see if changing the " Cycles " make a difference, I think the default is 6 cycles, the lower it is the faster it will drop the Generator, the higher, the longer it will allow the specifications to be out of the limits before it drops, if I understand it correctly and my memory is not that good anymore.

On the G Models it is the reverse since you want Gen Support to be as fast as you can so it kicks in faster.

jcheil

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

That might be a issue you can play with in the Mate settings. On the Gen limits see if changing the " Cycles " make a difference, I think the default is 6 cycles, the lower it is the faster it will drop the Generator, the higher, the longer it will allow the specifications to be out of the limits before it drops, if I understand it.

I will play with that, but as someone else mentioned in another thread, it may be the fact that the 1400 won't even run the fridge to begin with. I never tried running it on it before, never had to. But I do know my 1400 (non-inverter generator) is "reaching" (like many others) claiming to be 1400/1800. Around 1200w load the voltage/freq is crazy unstable and ironically, at very small loads (say only an 80 watt fan) it is even worse.

Cariboocoot

Re: Generator fuel consumption?

jcheil wrote: »

From what I read, the gen support on the outback is only for the G model inverters. It does not work (is not available) for the V (off-grid) models. Not sure why they didn't implement it, it would be an awesome feature.

This is correct.
The GVFX has a bi-directional AC IN because it is a grid-tie inverter (as is the XW). Blackcherry has used the gen support feature on one with 100% success.
The VFX does not have a bi-directional AC IN: when it senses power there it switches loads to the AC IN and changes operation from invert to charge. There is no possible gen support due to the different configuration of the method of handling AC IN.