Interesting...

Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Interesting...

    I am not sure that all is what the article says--I saw this a while ago (woman arrested for not being connected to grid and city water) and it turned out she was connected to the city/county sewer and was not paying the sewer fees (many locations add sewer fees to water bill) and that was what she was arrested for.

    But leaving the "grid" has causes folks problems before. Years ago there was a person that had big issues with a local city law that said all residences had to have garbage service--And this one family had had recycled everything (and would "unbox" stuff they purchased at the store).

    Also, in California, people have to pay the utility to "leave the grid" (pay for stranded equipment) and there are cities that have laws on what a property needs (power, services) to be inhabitable.

    I can see folks that can do without some services--But there could be issues with neighbors too (who wants a neighbor's backup up generator noise/fumes during bad weather or even carbon monoxide poisoning and fuel storage issues with the typical 50x100 foot lots or even smaller/more dense environments).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...

    "Interesting" is not the word I would use, but we try to keep the language family-friendly.

    You people in the U.S.A. have some serious problems with politicians that need to be voted out of office. Be glad that you can do so.
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...
    "Interesting" is not the word I would use, but we try to keep the language family-friendly.

    Exactly :)

    And yes, I do remember the bottom line was she was using the sewer without paying for it because it is part of the water bill.
    I agree with that part. I hate how the news can taint things. However, look at that UN amendment 21 they are talking about. I can't believe that we can adopt such a thing.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...

    Where is that discussion hidden? can't find it...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
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    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...
    westbranch wrote: »
    Where is that discussion hidden? can't find it...

    Sorry, I had been doing more research from the links and other sources, I guess I thought it was mentioned in THAT link.
    And my mistake, it is AGENDA 21, not "Amendment" 21.

    Here is what lead me there...
    http://www.offthegridnews.com/2014/02/22/court-rules-off-the-grid-living-is-illegal/

    Then it finally lead me to this...
    http://therundownlive.com/agenda-21-makes-off-the-grid-living-illegal/

    Which I find even more "interesting" :)

    And it does state that it is a "UN" amendment so it is "world-enforced"??? I just don't get it. Now there will be a communist "world-order"??? People seriously need to wake up...

    PS - I know this is not a political forum, but this is 100% related to "off-grid" and sometimes politics does overlap...
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...

    Unfortunately many such sites are driven by conspiracy theorists promoting extreme views and scare mongering. Their credibility is sadly lacking. But true believers of that religion like it that way.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...

    Not quite Mandatory yet...Agenda 21 is a non-binding, voluntarily implemented action plan of the United Nations with regard to sustainable development.[

    The United States is a signatory country to Agenda 21, but because Agenda 21 is a legally non-binding statement of intent and not a treaty, the United States Senate was not required to hold a formal debate or vote on it. It is therefore not considered to be law under Article Six of the United States Constitution. President George Bush was one of the 178 heads of government who signed the final text of the agreement at the Earth Summit in 1992,[12][13] and in the same year Representatives Nancy Pelosi, Eliot Engel and William Broomfield spoke in support of United States House of Representatives Concurrent Resolution 353, supporting implementation of Agenda 21 in the United States.[14][15]

    In the United States, over 528 cities are members of ICLEI, an international sustainability organization that helps to implement the Agenda 21 and Local Agenda 21 concepts across the world. The United States has nearly half of the ICLEI's global membership of 1,200 cities promoting sustainable development at a local level.[9] The United States also has one of the most comprehensively documented Agenda 21 status reports.[16] In response to the opposition, Don Knapp, U.S. spokesman for the ICLEI, has said "Sustainable development is not a top-down conspiracy from the U.N., but a bottom-up push from local governments".[15]


    from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_21
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...

    The United Nations has in fact no authority over any of its member-nations whatsoever. As a group it can agree on plans and actions, but the nations need only act upon such agreements if they are implemented as law in those nations by the government thereof.

    One need only look at history to see how utterly ineffectual UN plans are. :roll:

    On the whole having a national energy policy promoting sustainability would be a good thing.
  • peakbagger
    peakbagger Solar Expert Posts: 341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...

    Although it looks like this thread is shifting over to government conspiracy theories, let go back to the lady in florida and her neighbors and impact to the community. If she can maintain life safety and not impact her neighbors that may be one case but it appears as though in other reports that her home is in residential neighborhood. She was hooked up to the city sanitary sewer and not paying for the service so her choice in theory would be to install a onsite disposal system permitted and designed to meet state code. This may be difficult or impossible if she is on a 100 x 100 foot residential lot due to high ground water (much of florida has a very high groundwater table) or required clearances to property boundaries and structures. In some areas she may be able to permit a composting toilet but that generally requires a gray water treatment system. If her property is on 10 acres, this is generally not a problem but frequently the allowable housing density of an area is based around the availability of city services. Thus if she is on a subdivided 100 x 100 lot, the underlying assumption by the local government when the subdivision was created was everyone has city water and sewer, if they didn't the development probably wouldn't have been approved. This is effectively an encumbrance on the deed, although it is not stated. Thus when she bought the house and the associated lot whether she understood it or not, she accepted the restrictions that went along with the land.

    So if she wants to have an off grid lifestyle, she has the perfect right to within the context of the law and it looks like that not going to happen where she currently lives. I think that would also apply to densely populated areas in Canada as well as the US. I live on a one acre lot with a permitted septic system and a deep well and if I wanted to I could go off grid. My town uses IBC and in some parts of town with small lots, water and sewer connections are required. I elected to build where I did and followed the rules and those who built in high density residential areas follow the rules in place where they decided to build.

    Even if she is willing to live in cesspool, I believe that the adjacent landowners have the right to not live in one and they to have implicit rights that when they bought their property that laws would be enforced and realistically, improper waste disposal is going to impact the neighbors involuntarily. I guess someone could argue that if they don't like it they should leave but generally the assumption is that the "government" will enforce public health laws rather than one neighbor having to slug it out with the next.

    With regards to rainwater collection versus connection to a city water supply, that is bit more fuzzy. A properly designed rainwater catchment system with proper water treatment is potentially a viable alternative to a well. Unless Florida has rules similar to some western states where a homeowner does not necessarily has the right to collect rainwater that falls on their property, then collecting rainwater does not directly impact the neighbors. Solar vs grid is also somewhat fuzzy although any installation would have to meet what building codes are in place for the area. In these cases, it definitely appears that public law is lagging current technology, that's where the legislative process is supposed to step in but the system is pretty slow.

    Give the two referenced sources, including Aljazzerra America, the articles seem to be selective in the facts and were written to sensationalize the situation. It would be interesting to learn the facts behind the case but that does not sell newspapers or attract clicks and that it why we see what we see.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...

    It comes down to this: are we talking about not being connected to the electrical grid (which is the definition of "off-grid") or are we talking about using city water & sewer but not paying for it (which is clearly not legal and no one should expect it to be) or are we talking about using some on-site water and septic system which may or may not be suitable for the location?

    The grid has nothing to do with water. It's a bad idea to mix the two, both literally and metaphorically.

    When I lived in NY there was a law which required all households to be connected to the electric grid. That included those of the Amish people, who did not use electricity. Nevertheless their homes were wired up and they paid the bill for a service they didn't need or want. That is unfair in my opinion, and if this is what is being inflicted on people now who choose to have their own power system it is still unfair. So long as the wiring meets code and is in no way unsafe, it should be allowed. Forcing the grid connection is obviously legislation meant to put money in the utility's pocket, and with the ever-increasing connection charges is likely to be quite the money-maker for them.

    Again if the issue is water and sewer that is not grid and should not be referred to as such. Which is the case in the particular instance sited I could not guarantee as the media have a bad habit of slanted reporting and just plain not understanding what they are talking about. But it is entirely possible for utilities to con legislatures into passing such laws. In fact I believe we've had some reported instances of power companies demanding the right to charge people for not using their infrastructure. And that is just plain wrong.
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...
    It comes down to this: are we talking about not being connected to the electrical grid (which is the definition of "off-grid") or are we talking about using city water & sewer but not paying for it (which is clearly not legal and no one should expect it to be) or are we talking about using some on-site water and septic system which may or may not be suitable for the location?

    The grid has nothing to do with water. It's a bad idea to mix the two, both literally and metaphorically.

    When I lived in NY there was a law which required all households to be connected to the electric grid. That included those of the Amish people, who did not use electricity. Nevertheless their homes were wired up and they paid the bill for a service they didn't need or want. That is unfair in my opinion, and if this is what is being inflicted on people now who choose to have their own power system it is still unfair. So long as the wiring meets code and is in no way unsafe, it should be allowed. Forcing the grid connection is obviously legislation meant to put money in the utility's pocket, and with the ever-increasing connection charges is likely to be quite the money-maker for them.

    Again if the issue is water and sewer that is not grid and should not be referred to as such. Which is the case in the particular instance sited I could not guarantee as the media have a bad habit of slanted reporting and just plain not understanding what they are talking about. But it is entirely possible for utilities to con legislatures into passing such laws. In fact I believe we've had some reported instances of power companies demanding the right to charge people for not using their infrastructure. And that is just plain wrong.

    Agreed completely. The news has always been the problem. Not only selectively reporting only certain parts but making a headline that is not "really" related to the issue, thus making true "off-grid" people/installations look bad.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Interesting...
    jcheil wrote: »
    Agreed completely. The news has always been the problem. Not only selectively reporting only certain parts but making a headline that is not "really" related to the issue, thus making true "off-grid" people/installations look bad.

    Or making the "Man" (government/police/etc.) look bad.

    What every sells news papers or makes for good "click bait".

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...

    People are just in fear of terrorism. That's the only reason why advocates of the off grid brigade take action.

    Majority of terrorism that occurs, they produce their own resources for energy, they don't want bills in their name, etc....

    Check out any war we have been through in the past 20 years, solar panels and loads of batteries, and a radio...

    That's all it comes down too.
  • ILFE
    ILFE Solar Expert Posts: 364 ✭✭
    Re: Interesting...
    People are just in fear of terrorism. That's the only reason why advocates of the off grid brigade take action.

    Majority of terrorism that occurs, they produce their own resources for energy, they don't want bills in their name, etc....

    Check out any war we have been through in the past 20 years, solar panels and loads of batteries, and a radio...

    That's all it comes down too.

    Oh, I don't know. That may be it.

    But, for many who are going off-grid, it may be the fact of how the US is changing, and has been doing so for a number of years now. I think people, in general, are not trusting of their government. (What people, in what countries should, really?)

    In my case, I live in a country that doesn't care anything about my income, what taxes I pay - with the exception of purchases made in country, or what I do on the property where we live. We have an off-grid farm, because there are no utilities nearby (less than 5 kilometers away). So, we created our own power, our own water supply, and live - completely, without government interference. While there are some drawbacks to living in Third World countries, there are also many positives.

    Of course, once in a while, I wouldn't mind some good southern pit bar-b-que.

    'Possum (Opossum) on the half shell, y'all?
    Paul
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...

    That's an armadillo.

    Some of us aren't worried about terrorism or wars at all. Lived through so many "the world is coming to an end" scenarios we ignore the fools crying "wolf".

    Instead we recognize the practical applications of even the 'inefficient' off-grid power systems; bringing civilization to places that never had it before. To say nothing of helping to avoid the promised doomsday by reinforcing the electrical grid with distributed generation.

    And it's somewhat ironic that the people who are predicting 'the end' are actually helping to forestall that event with their preparations for it. :roll:
  • ILFE
    ILFE Solar Expert Posts: 364 ✭✭
    Re: Interesting...
    That's an armadillo.

    Actually, it's a southern joke... Possum - on the half shell. :D

    I was just waiting to see if someone got it. Oh well. Glad I didn't try to become a comedian.
    Paul
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Interesting...

    i'm going to add that there is a grid of water lines and of sewer lines, not to mention a grid of natural gas lines so off grid can include those even though i agree this is usually encompassing the electric grid.

    i have a sewage rate based on my water consumption here. they opted to simplify the sewage billing and charge the major users more for it that way. they do require a water hookup here, but they don't specify that you can't also get water from say the rain. i could feed my toilet the untreated rainwater and they can't complain about it. if it went to full rainwater treated by me even with the water utility hooked up and not being used then this could be an interesting case here as they would most likely go after me as well for using sewage lines without paying, but that's a glitch or out of their own making imho. i see the op as being in a similar situation as it isn't a case of she is just trying to get out of paying her sewage bill, but there isn't a way to properly bill her because they based it on the water utility usages.

    although they are trying to insure habitability they are forcing things they don't have a right to force upon people imho. what they should do is be sure property owners and prospective property owners are aware of shortfalls for a property that they may need to be overcome like no electric and they could check up on them to see that this hasn't manifested into a problem that may involve other aspects of government because they may be endangering their health or welfare. most of these types of laws are passed primarily in urban areas and not in remote areas that utilities have trouble reaching. politicians take the simple and easy way out for themselves by forced connections to any utility and that may be beyond what they should be able to do.